End of year assessment of trap's ireland

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15/12/2012, 9:42 PM
Charlie Darwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

It's no big secret that the 'other' SPL clubs don't do well in European competition, it would be a good season if a few draws were picked up, they just don't seem to bother about it so much (unless they get an English team). I don't think that it's a good slide rule to judge the standard of the 'other' SPL teams compared to the LOI clubs.

I don't know why you think they don't seem to bother. They have no hope of winning the domestic league so European football is about as glamorous as it gets, plus European qualification is easy money if you're good enough - fact is, Scottish clubs aren't.

Quote:

The SPL football standard is higher than the LOI, not a lot higher but higher all the same. That's my opinion, based on watching both on TV.
One indicator, a recent Scottish national squad for a friendly had 7 players from 'other' SPL clubs, the u21 competitive squad had 9 of them.

Have a look at the players who were omitted from the squad for the last competitive game - if Ireland had that many players missing we'd also be calling on plenty of Airtricity League players: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotlan...Recent_players

Even so, there's no disputing the money on offer in the SPL is far in excess of that offered in Ireland. That's why fairly average LOI players like Jon Daly and Eoin Doyle are making so much more money over there. The point is that the standard isn't any better, just like the standard wasn't any better when LOI teams were paying three and four times current rates.

Quote:

If any LOI club had the same facilities as say Kilmarnock, re training, income, stadium, with players on a FT contract, I'd have little doubt they would improve all round.

The thread issue is about Trap and an assessment of how he has managed the player resources as it exists to him. I assume he has all the facilities he needs to manage the squad. The fact that those players are all abroad is a concern, but not Trap's concern.

I think Irish players would be much improved with superior facilities and full-time contracts, which makes it all the more perplexing that Scotland is incapable of producing better players than Ireland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

That's a fair post and makes more sense than those by others, besides myself, that preceded it.
Because of far higher investment, grounds and facilities in Ireland have a long way to go compared to a good number of other European countries with similar size populations or even similar levels of club football.

Agreed 100%. Scotland is miles ahead of Ireland in terms of infrastructure.
15/12/2012, 11:22 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

The point is that the standard isn't any better, just like the standard wasn't any better when LOI teams were paying three and four times current rates.

Except that there are numerous foreign internationals who've played in the SPL in recent years and even now, a fact conspicuous by their absence generally in say Irish or Welsh domestic soccer.
15/12/2012, 11:51 PM
Charlie Darwin

There have been plenty of foreign internationals in Ireland over the years. They invariably end up in leagues that offer more money but are no better. I'm sure the SPL is very proud of all its Lithuanian and Latvian internationals but that doesn't make it a great league.
16/12/2012, 12:07 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Aye, but not just from there.

Anyway, they go to these leagues, not just for money, but perceived status and success including the clubs and other players they come up against.
16/12/2012, 12:21 AM
Charlie Darwin

What other countries? Yep, players definitely go for the prestige of coming up against players like Samaras and Scott Brown.
16/12/2012, 1:53 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Why not? They're probably two of the few in the SPL who're good enough (just) on their day to get an EPL gig.

You really enjoy flogging a dead horse though...
16/12/2012, 8:31 AM
geysir

Charlie, I took the liberty of snipping your post, mainly time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I don't know why you think they don't seem to bother. They have no hope of winning the domestic league so European football is about as glamorous as it gets, plus European qualification is easy money if you're good enough - fact is, Scottish clubs aren't.

How about, the flower of Scotland isn't blooming in the pre-season. They're not good in the middle of July, fact! :)A reflection of a league's quality isn't just about getting a few results in European competition in July and early August, however it's one factor you can look at.
If it was the only or even the main factor to look at, then we could say without doubt, that based on coefficient points earned from the last 2 season's 6 head to head games in the EL, the Icelandic league is moving slightly ahead of the LOI, but we know it's only about par.:)
I said my opinion on the spl league is based on watching the teams play football on tv and it's a better standard than the football played in the LOI games that I have seen on tv, all imo.
Send a question to Pat Fenlon and ask him his considered opinion about the SPL standard.

Quote:

Have a look at the players who were omitted from the squad for the last competitive game - if Ireland had that many players missing we'd also be calling on plenty of Airtricity League players: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotlan...Recent_players

Fair enough, but 9 players from the other spl teams being in the Scottish u21 competitive squad, is decent representation. The Scots u21 team is better than Ireland's. And in the senior competitive squad, there's a good sprinkling of players who play a few seasons with the other spl clubs, before they move South.

Quote:

I think Irish players would be much improved with superior facilities and full-time contracts, which makes it all the more perplexing that Scotland is incapable of producing better players than Ireland.

I don't know why that is, but I'm sure it has been the subject of much debate amongst Scottish football folk. Is there a formula, that once applied will produce an exact result, that exceptional footballer out from the herd, just like those great players from the past?
16/12/2012, 9:16 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Geysir,
A lot of your latter point revolves around cyclical factors. As we all know the North, Scotland and Wales have all 'produced' world-class players like us, but whether we like it or not, they were mainly developed by English clubs, married to those individuals natural ability...

Unfortunately, there's no guarantee this will happen. It just seems to depend on random factors in the gene pool!
08/01/2013, 8:51 AM
AlaskaFox

Rather than make a new thread, thought I'd put this in an old one. Compiled all the results (and many highlights) of Irish international fixtures from U15 up to senior level for 2012:
http://greenscene.me/2013/01/republi...-2012-results/
08/01/2013, 9:26 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Even so, there's no disputing the money on offer in the SPL is far in excess of that offered in Ireland. That's why fairly average LOI players like Jon Daly and Eoin Doyle are making so much more money over there.

Jon Daly never played in the LOI.
08/01/2013, 1:58 PM
Charlie Darwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Jon Daly never played in the LOI.

You're right, I mean Sean Dillon.
08/01/2013, 2:07 PM
Bungle

I agree that Scotland should produce more players than they do. I had a good conversation with a Scottish mate who reckoned that the decline in them producing great players was when the teachers up there stopped staying after school hours to coach the kids and that this had a massive impact on the fitness levels of Scottish kids. He also made the point that up there alot less people volunteer than they did say 20 odd years ago. He said that this alligned to places like Glasgow no longer being safe for street football has devestated Scottish football.

It is rare to see street football over here as well, but from having lived in England,there is a much higher proportion of people who volunteer and help out in clubs. In a strange way, I think that the inadequacies of those who run football in this country down the years have brought what Eamo would cal lus "football people" closer together, than maybe places like Scotland.
08/01/2013, 8:20 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

You're right, I mean Sean Dillon.

He played for Shelbourne in the season they last won the league, before he made the move to Scotland.
A BBC article on the move included this quote from Sean,
"I see this as a big step up from playing in the League of Ireland, both on and off the park,"
:D
08/01/2013, 9:14 PM
Charlie Darwin

Off the park, certainly. Even "full time" Shels had inferior facilities to your average GAA club.
08/01/2013, 9:40 PM
peadar1987

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bungle

I agree that Scotland should produce more players than they do. I had a good conversation with a Scottish mate who reckoned that the decline in them producing great players was when the teachers up there stopped staying after school hours to coach the kids and that this had a massive impact on the fitness levels of Scottish kids. He also made the point that up there alot less people volunteer than they did say 20 odd years ago. He said that this alligned to places like Glasgow no longer being safe for street football has devestated Scottish football.

It is rare to see street football over here as well, but from having lived in England,there is a much higher proportion of people who volunteer and help out in clubs. In a strange way, I think that the inadequacies of those who run football in this country down the years have brought what Eamo would cal lus "football people" closer together, than maybe places like Scotland.

I live in Maryhill in the north of the city, and my normal running route takes me past two sets of football pitches. I'd say they're being used maybe 5% of the time tops. I think a lot of it is due to the fact that neds nowadays "cannae be bothered", whereas maybe a few years ago they'd not be bothered about a lot of things, but still kick around a football with their mates. Perhaps Scottish football has been hit harder than other places by the fact that cool kids now play FIFA instead of fitba
08/01/2013, 9:46 PM
Charlie Darwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by peadar1987

Perhaps Scottish football has been hit harder than other places by the fact that cool kids now play FIFA instead of fitba

Somewhere in England, John Giles' ears just pr icked up.
08/01/2013, 10:24 PM
Crosby87

Yeah there is an article out today saying TV and Video games are giving kids cancer.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/technol...itting-1523980
08/01/2013, 10:24 PM
BonnieShels

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

He played for Shelbourne in the season they last won the league, before he made the move to Scotland.
A BBC article on the move included this quote from Sean,
"I see this as a big step up from playing in the League of Ireland, both on and off the park,"
:D

And to think... His Nanny lived on the same street as me and we would often play ball together. To think we were once at the same level. Sigh.
09/01/2013, 7:21 AM
peadar1987

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Somewhere in England, John Giles' ears just pr icked up.

There is some good higher education over here as well. Football has no chance!
09/01/2013, 7:38 AM
geysir

And not to mention the growth in use of personal stereos by kids, like the walkman.

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