Read it and weep....Trap stays!

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

There's no way Kerr would have gotten that point in Russia either.

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No, he wouldn't have picked Richard Dunne :)

Today's Indo is saying that it was player power that persuaded the Board to retain Trap, led by by a direct approach to the FAI Robbie Keane and supported by Andrews and O'Dea.

Now, I take some of that with a pinch of salt as the Indo really has it in for Keane but if it's still largely true then there is a big issue here. This simply can not be a united camp. There's no way Long, Gibson, Foley (less relevant) would have endorsed Trap and I have a feeling that Doyle might be in with these too. I like Andrews and he openly admits his debt to Trap and O'Dea seems a decent sort but I wouldn't be taking his advice on who should manage Ireland.

I'm sure Tets will quote James McCarthy' TV interview from Tuesday but a player can't be expected to give anything other than a diplomatic answer on TV. :)

Separately, Vincent Hogan provides a fair appraisal of Trap's reign so far in my opinion. Good writer, far too good for that rag.

I bought the print edition in London this morning. Neither article is online yet.

[QUOTE=
He qualified us for the euros with a poor, poor group of players, the worst Irish squad to ever have qualified for a major championships. This achievement will be looked on more favourably in years to come when he is long gone.
[/QUOTE]
Ireland qualified for the Euros because they (very luckily) drew Estonia in the play-offs. The qualifying campaign was hardly impressive. That's what I'll remember in years to come: how lucky Trapatoni was to qualify.
The rebuilding campaign should start now, but we're stuck with a lame duck of a manager because the FAI can't afford to sack him, and he's too stubborn to resign.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm usually with you on the meeja but I don't see what's too wrong with malone's take on events, though I do think that JD and Peter Sherrard were right not to fan flames by giving meaningless "holding" comments.

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Well, I guess the most offensive things (for me) were the continued roll out of "a senior FAI source", which began life as a "source within the FAI" with Dan McDonnell; "as all but the most devoted" - which means the vast, vast majority were in favour of getting rid of the manager; "sizeable number of critics" - led by those who fill paper space with lists of players overlooked, despite injury, lack of willingness to play for Ireland and other facts conveniently left out; that the manager was "forced to some extent by those same critics to play the team which lined out in the Faroes" - this was the kicker for me, we're lucky our press corp know better than the manager, and this has leaked into Irish meeja so much; and the insinuation that someone high up inside the organisation set Trap up for a fall when it was another manifestation of hivethinking amongst the hacks.

Maybe I just found it wrong as there is so much wrong with how the Indo approached it. I like Emmett Malone, he's usually quite to the point with his work, though his list of fringe players and this just don't sit right, for me of course.

I think if we draw in Stockholm and beat Sweden in Dublin I think we'll make second.

For instance with these results:

22-Mar-13 Kazakhstan 0 v 4 Germany
22-Mar-13 Austria 2 v 0 Faeroes
22-Mar-13 Sweden 1 v 1 Ireland

26-Mar-13 Germany 5 v 0 Kazakhstan
26-Mar-13 Ireland 2 v 1 Austria

07-Jun-13 Austria 1 v 1 Sweden
07-Jun-13 Ireland 4 v 0 Faeroes

11-Jun-13 Sweden 3 v 0 Faeroes

06-Sep-13 Kazakhstan 2 v 2 Faeroes
06-Sep-13 Germany 3 v 1 Austria
06-Sep-13 Ireland 2 v 0 Sweden

10-Sep-11 Kazakhstan 1 v 2 Sweden
10-Sep-11 Austria 0 v 0 Ireland
10-Sep-11 Faeroes 0 v 4 Germany

11-Oct-13 Germany 3 v 0 Ireland
07-Oct-11 Sweden 2 v 0 Austria
07-Oct-11 Faeroes 0 v 0 Kazakhstan

11-Oct-11 Sweden 1 v 1 Germany
11-Oct-11 Faeroes 1 v 2 Austria
11-Oct-11 Ireland 4 v 0 Kazakhstan

The table would be like this:

Projected Final W D L GF GA +/-
1 Germany 10 8 2 0 35 8 27 26
2 Ireland 10 6 2 2 20 13 7 20
3 Sweden 10 5 4 1 18 11 7 19
4 Austria 10 3 3 3 12 11 1 12
5 Kazakhstan 10 0 3 7 4 25 -21 3
6 Faeroes 10 0 2 8 5 26 -21 2

If anyone wants the score predictor / table PM me and I can send it on.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

No, he wouldn't have picked Richard Dunne :)

Today's Indo is saying that it was player power that persuaded the Board to retain Trap, led by by a direct approach to the FAI Robbie Keane and supported by Andrews and O'Dea.

Now, I take some of that with a pinch of salt as the Indo really has it in for Keane but if it's still largely true then there is a big issue here. This simply can not be a united camp. There's no way Long, Gibson, Foley (less relevant) would have endorsed Trap and I have a feeling that Doyle might be in with these too. I like Andrews and he openly admits his debt to Trap and O'Dea seems a decent sort but I wouldn't be taking his advice on who should manage Ireland.

I'm sure Tets will quote James McCarthy' TV interview from Tuesday but a player can't be expected to give anything other than a diplomatic answer on TV. :)

Separately, Vincent Hogan provides a fair appraisal of Trap's reign so far in my opinion. Good writer, far too good for that rag.

I bought the print edition in London this morning. Neither article is online yet.

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Completely agree with everything you say. James McCarthy strikes me as a good pro despite his youth and is going to come out and support him, especially after the game. Robbie quite rightly as the captain will do the same. Any criticism of Robbie doing this is disgraceful. Then there are guys like Andrews and O'Dea (both very decent lads from what I gather) who are going to have a loyalty to him, because they were getting game time when better players weren't. I would concede that Andrews was terrific at the Euros and prior to Friday, O'Dea had never let us down. However, this does not take away from the fact that Trap does not play and does not know his best 11.

People mention the point in Moscow. What people forget is that the final result would have been worse than Friday were it not for the then fit and brilliant Given and the collosal performance from Dunne that evening. It was part heroics with a massive helping of luck. At the Euros and on Friday, the luck ran out.

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Originally Posted by Straightstory

Ireland qualified for the Euros because they (very luckily) drew Estonia in the play-offs. The qualifying campaign was hardly impressive. That's what I'll remember in years to come: how lucky Trapatoni was to qualify.

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To be fair, we were in a position to draw Estonia because we were seeded for the draw.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm usually with you on the meeja but I don't see what's too wrong with malone's take on events, though I do think that JD and Peter Sherrard were right not to fan flames by giving meaningless "holding" comments.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Well, I guess the most offensive things (for me) were the continued roll out of "a senior FAI source", which began life as a "source within the FAI" with Dan McDonnell; "as all but the most devoted" - which means the vast, vast majority were in favour of getting rid of the manager; "sizeable number of critics" - led by those who fill paper space with lists of players overlooked, despite injury, lack of willingness to play for Ireland and other facts conveniently left out; that the manager was "forced to some extent by those same critics to play the team which lined out in the Faroes" - this was the kicker for me, we're lucky our press corp know better than the manager, and this has leaked into Irish meeja so much; and the insinuation that someone high up inside the organisation set Trap up for a fall when it was another manifestation of hivethinking amongst the hacks.

Maybe I just found it wrong as there is so much wrong with how the Indo approached it. I like Emmett Malone, he's usually quite to the point with his work, though his list of fringe players and this just don't sit right, for me of course.

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And me too! I couldn't believe what I was reading when I saw that bit in bold.
I see Malone has replied to the article online there now with this:

QUOTE: "Just for the record: this piece was written and then edited under a fair bit of time pressure and what I actually wrote (minus the typos) last night was:

"The decision seems to be, on balance, the correct one although Trapattoni will clearly have to contend on an ongoing basis with a sizeable number of critics who would prefer to see the back of him and it will be interesting to see whether, after games in which he has effectively picked precisely the sort of teams that many of those detractors would have wanted him to, his overhaul of the team will continue at its suddenly accelerated rate when some of his more established players are fit and available again"

In the published version this became...

"The decision seems to be, on balance, to be the correct one although Trapattoni will clearly have to contend on an ongoing basis with a sizeable number of critics who would prefer to see the back of him.

Having been forced to some extent by those same critics to play the team which lined out in the Faroes, it will be interesting to see the reaction of the supporters when some of his more established players are fit and available again."

Grammatically, the second version is better, the sentence structure is improved and, as I say, some typos have been removed which is not bad going in the time the sub-editor would have had to work with it. Critically, however, what I was actually saying has been changed. Injuries and retirements shaped the selections, not the critics. " END QUOTE.

So his boss tweaked what he wrote? It still basically goes along the same lines and his original still hints that Trap started picking these players due to public/media pressures. Yeah right! He's stubborn enough to play hard ball with the FAI, so I very much doubt he lets anyone influence his team selections, barring Tardelli and maybe Alan Kelly.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

The promotion of Clifford, Brady and Duffy would suggest he does have knowledge of them

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True enough. However, at the time Clifford was playing very well and was one of the best underage/reserve talents in England. Brady was similar in this sense and Duffy had played a number of premiership/european games for Everton. Both Clifford and Duffy's inclusions almost came across as token gestures i.e train with the squad with little chance of gametime. I am guessing that Trap heard about them from his advisors, because I doubt he ever saw any of them live in a game.

Peter Staunton has written a fairly level-headed piece for Goal.com on why the decision to retain Trap has been the correct one, in his opinion: http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/...reland-towards

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Ireland's players have been performing beneath themselves but you wouldn't know because there's a manager to blame. Four defeats in five competitive matches before winning 4-1 against the Faroe Islands. But the players have been shielded. Because it's all Trapattoni's fault. Trapattoni's fault that Darren O'Dea slid in on Miroslav Klose, conceding a penalty. Trapattoni's fault that Shay Given and Damien Duff retired. Trapattoni's fault that Stephen Kelly and Shane Long are sulking because they can't get in the team. Trapattoni's fault that Rasmus Elm equalised against Germany on Tuesday. We're Ireland and we deserve better.

The blighted European Championship campaign brought to a juddering halt the goodwill built up towards the Italian and did indeed bring into glaring focus his limitations as a tactician, his intransigence as a man and his problems communicating as a coach and mentor. But it also instigated a blame culture against him. He, alone, according to the masses, is responsible for the ills of Irish soccer. No matter that the FAI is not interested in its own national league nor development at grassroots level beyond tokenism.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

But Kerr had that group, and he blew it. Switzerland were there to be beaten in 04/05, particularly at home, and the less said about the Israel games the better.

We'd have drawn at least twice in the four games against Armenia and Macedonia with Kerr at the helm.

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France > Russia
Switzerland > Slovakia
Israel > Armenia
Cyprus < Macedonia
Faroe Islands > Andorra

Best headline of the day goes to The Examiner:

"The cat escapes the sack".

Well done that sub-editor!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm sure Tets will quote James McCarthy' TV interview from Tuesday but a player can't be expected to give anything other than a diplomatic answer on TV. :)

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McCarthy was more emphatic than diplomatic, I would say. His tone wasn't guarded at all. He said:

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Most importantly, we've come away with three points and a good performance. Obviously it is a great win for the boss. He has been brilliant since I've come into the squad and I would definitely like to see him stay on as manager.

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Originally Posted by Steve Staunton

Because it's all Trapattoni's fault. Trapattoni's fault that Darren O'Dea slid in on Miroslav Klose, conceding a penalty.

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Well, why does it not surprise me that the man who gave Joe Lapira a cap doesn't see how Trapattoni is to blame for a Toronto FC player marking Miroslav Klose.

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We're Ireland and we deserve better.

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Yes, we deserve better than 6-1 against Germany and 5-2 against Cyprus.

edit: Ah right, it was Peter Staunton. Not Steve Staunton. I must have read "Pinger Staunton"

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

McCarthy was more emphatic than diplomatic, I would say. His tone wasn't guarded at all. He said:

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It looks emphatic in writing, but watch it again. He's asked if they players "won for the manager". He starts to stutter a bit and comes up with some diplomatic answer. The body language said everything.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm sure Tets will quote James McCarthy' TV interview from Tuesday but a player can't be expected to give anything other than a diplomatic answer on TV. :)

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I have to say, I found Mccarthy's (forgiving) endorsement to be delivered in a totally convincing manner and with sincerity, would have passed lie detector test with flying colours.
But if pressed I'd guess it had more to say about McCarthy's character than Trap's overall management.

We need to get Tim Roth on the case.

In fairness I thought so myself at the time and if pressed I'd also agree with your assessment of James' character.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I have to say, I found Mccarthy's (forgiving) endorsement to be delivered in a totally convincing manner and with sincerity, would have passed lie detector test with flying colours.
But if pressed I'd guess it had more to say about McCarthy's character than Trap's overall management.

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I interpreted it similarly.

Can be viewed again here at 13:30 for any fellow cod psychologists interested:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/player/734/341964/

:)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Peter Staunton has written a fairly level-headed piece for Goal.com on why the decision to retain Trap has been the correct one, in his opinion:

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Level-headed ?

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But the players have been shielded. Because it's all Trapattoni's fault. Trapattoni's fault that Darren O'Dea slid in on Miroslav Klose, conceding a penalty.

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well if he picked Clark of Aston Villa instead of Darren O'Dea of Tor fcuking Onto - maybe the situation could have been avoided.

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Trapattoni's fault that Stephen Kelly and Shane Long are sulking because they can't get in the team.

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Sulking ? I'd be sulking too if a championship standard forward playing as winger kept me out of the team. Walters should have been playing on the wing with our best forward available, Long, playing up front.

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We're Ireland and we deserve better.

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Better than decision making which contributed to our worst home defeat in decades ? Yes actually we do.

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The blighted European Championship campaign brought to a juddering halt the goodwill built up towards the Italian and did indeed bring into glaring focus his limitations as a tactician, his intransigence as a man and his problems communicating as a coach and mentor. But it also instigated a blame culture against him.

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I wonder why the blame culture was instigated ?

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He, alone, according to the masses, is responsible for the ills of Irish soccer. No matter that the FAI is not interested in its own national league nor development at grassroots level beyond tokenism.

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No one is blaming him for the ills of Irish soccer, just the ills of this team, for which he is ultimately responsible

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Originally Posted by brine3

France > Russia
Switzerland > Slovakia
Israel > Armenia
Cyprus < Macedonia
Faroe Islands > Andorra

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A team-by-team breakdown is splitting hairs - both group's were relatively handy. Trap's Ireland were third seeds and came second. Kerr's Ireland were second seeds and came fourth.

He ain't the manager to cite if it comes to aggressively winning matches - he drew more competitive games than a Pictionary World Champion.

Also you must have a short memory if you think the Swiss were any cop back then. They were even seeded below us (unlike Slovakia) and, regardless of seeding, were totally pedestrian. Our performance against them in the must-win final group game was pathetic and Kerr was rightly to blame.

Slovakia made it out of a group containing Italy, Paraguay and New Zealand at the last World Cup and were only edged ot 2-1 by Holland (eventual runners up) in the knockouts in Durban. I would say they were at least as strong as that Swiss team from a few years before. They had/have some good players like Vittek, Hamsik, Skrtel and Kucka. They also beat Russia out in Moscow, early on in the last campaign. That result at the time had us all fearing the worst, but in the end Slovakia imploded in their last few matches.