Serbia V Republic of Ireland - Wednesday, 15th August 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

He cant really believe that it would have gone different. Even given that we lost to Croatia, the capitulation against Spain, and the limited defeat to Italy, wouldn't matter whether we played tomorrow or next year. That kinda stubborness and failure to acknowledge that things went drastically wrong, are very frustrating. In no other job, or even other football teams, could you get away with serious underperforming and hten come out and say ah I could have done it differently, if I got to do it again. YOu will never get to do it again.

Things could have gone different. We get the rub of the green v Croatia and the officials do their job properly by disallowing their 2nd for offside andawarding that stonewall pen when Keane was taken down in the box and we may have got away with a 2 all draw. May not have deserved it but had that happened then it's a totally different tournament. Of course it's all hypothetical but that's what I took him as trying to say. If Given, Dunne & O'Shea weren't clearly carrying knocks it could have panned out differently.

It was one of those tournaments, you can't blame the manager for the likes of the howler from Given that led to the corner the first Italy goal came from. And if people really think that a 30 year old player who's just had his first top level season would make a huge difference they need their heads checked, it seems for some that their ability increases in direct proportion to the amount of squads they're omitted from. I wouldn't mind a look at Hoolahan but I really doubt he'd make any difference, all of these players that people are bigging up that are not in the squad are limited.

Glad to see Wilson back on board, only issue I have with the squad is Clark not being in it. Happy Coleman is back as well but he really needs to improve on last season, his progression totally stalled last year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Things could have gone different. We get the rub of the green v Croatia and the officials do their job properly by disallowing their 2nd for offside andawarding that stonewall pen when Keane was taken down in the box and we may have got away with a 2 all draw. May not have deserved it but had that happened then it's a totally different tournament. Of course it's all hypothetical but that's what I took him as trying to say. If Given, Dunne & O'Shea weren't clearly carrying knocks it could have panned out differently.

It was one of those tournaments, you can't blame the manager for the likes of the howler from Given that led to the corner the first Italy goal came from. And if people really think that a 30 year old player who's just had his first top level season would make a huge difference they need their heads checked, it seems for some that their ability increases in direct proportion to the amount of squads they're omitted from. I wouldn't mind a look at Hoolahan but I really doubt he'd make any difference, all of these players that people are bigging up that are not in the squad are limited.

Glad to see Wilson back on board, only issue I have with the squad is Clark not being in it. Happy Coleman is back as well but he really needs to improve on last season, his progression totally stalled last year.

Who picked Given and continued to play him in all three games? Given was poor against Croatia and should not have featured again. Instead the manager stuck to his pre tournament comments about playing the players who got us to the finals come what may. A jolly of sorts. In my opinion Trapatonni made the crucial mistake of making the team too fearful of the opposition. Something Charlton or McCarthy never did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Pilkington should have been selected. He is the player Lambert is trying to bring to Villa and was Norwich's best player all season. And Trapatooni should know this but I bet dosen't. Hoolahan has too many off games so no big surprise he has not been selected. I'm glad McCarthy is going to get a proper run out and not just a cameo for the media. But we still have a huge problem at left back and Brady should have been not only brought in but started against Serbia. The Italians brought a untried player to the Euros and played him at right back. Picking the usual suspects suggests we have no other players available when this is simply not the case.

U 21 qualifier is far more important, leaving Brady in that squad was the correct decision.

there's been a lot of complaints on the various forums about the squad chosen, however I think that considering the players who were omitted for age, injury or suspension reasons, it's about as good as it gets

I went through the Irish Abroad database and extracted the following list of players not in the squad based on the following criteria:

younger than 30 on the 1st August 2012
ineligible for the U21 qualifier against Turkey on 14th August. According to the UEFA regulations - http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/...6_DOWNLOAD.pdf (page 21 Article 17.02) - this means the player is born before 1st January 1990
registered to a team in the Premier League, Championship or Scottish Premier League, with Padraig Amond, Barry Maguire, and Cillian Sheridan the exceptions

Code:

Goalkeeper Colin Doyle Birmingham City(Championship) Saul Deeney Derby County(Championship) Conrad Logan Leicester City(Championship) Robert Elliot Newcastle(Premier League) Brian Murphy QPR(Premier League) Stephen Henderson West Ham United(Premier League) Defender Ciaran Clark Aston Villa(Premier League) Marcos Painter Brighton and Hove Albion(Championship) Paddy McCarthy Crystal Palace(Championship) Sean Dillon Dundee Utd(Scottish Premier League) Richard Keogh Derby County(Championship) Tim Clancy Hibernian(Scottish Premier League) Alan Dunne Millwall(Championship) Brendan Moloney Nottingham Forest(Championship) Marc Tierney Norwich(Premier League) Matt Doherty Wolverhampton Wanderers(Championship) Joey O'Brien West Ham United(Premier League) Midfielder Jonathan Hayes Aberdeen(Scottish Premier League) Stephen Ireland Aston Villa(Premier League) Stephen Dawson Barnsley(Championship) Gary Dicker Brighton and Hove Albion(Championship) Chris McCann Burnley(Championship) Owen Garvan Crystal Palace(Championship) Richie Ryan Dundee Utd(Scottish Premier League) Willo Flood Dundee Utd(Scottish Premier League) Anthony Pilkington Norwich(Premier League) Lee Frecklington Peterborough(Championship) Jay Tabb Reading(Premier League) Patrick Cregg St Johnstone(Scottish Premier League) Graham Carey St Mirren(Scottish Premier League) David Meyler Sunderland(Premier League) Mark Yeates Watford(Championship) Barry Maguire VVV Venlo(Eredivisie) Striker Adam Rooney Birmingham City(Championship) Leon Best Blackburn(Championship) Daryl Murphy Celtic(Scottish Premier League) Anthony Stokes Celtic(Scottish Premier League) Jon Daly Dundee Utd(Scottish Premier League) Eoin Doyle Hibernian(Scottish Premier League) Noel Hunt Reading(Premier League) Conor Sammon Wigan(Premier League) Padraig Amdond Pacos(Primeira Liga) Cillian Sheridan CSKA Sofia(Bulgarian A Professional Football Group)

From that list, who would you bring into the squad, and who would they replace?

(note: Kevin Foley was on the original list I drafted up, but I removed him since he turned down a place in the squad)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Who picked Given and continued to play him in all three games? Given was poor against Croatia and should not have featured again. Instead the manager stuck to his pre tournament comments about playing the players who got us to the finals come what may. A jolly of sorts.

I don't disagree with that, I don't think that the manager didn't make mistakes. But Given's injury had nothing to do with him dropping a simple catch for that corner against Italy or puching a ball clear that he should have caught for Spain's second.

I see what you're saying D69er, but I think there's a strong case for Hoolahan to be tested ahead of Green. A lot of the major countries often arrive at their best XI almost by trial and error before or even during tournaments (Italy springs to mind). Players that logically don't work, do.

There is some good in the squad selection and there's a good chance to make proper change with this 23: Westwood, Wilson, Gibson, McCarthy, McClean, Coleman and Long all have a chance to stake a strong claim and if even 3 or 4 of these stick then that'd be a massive step up, but Green, McShane and Forde scare me a bit and although Cox is good enough at qualifier level Trap seems to prefer him to Long. I think we've got better.

Curiously I'm not bothered by Keogh - I like him, as a forward though. Trap's capacity to pick stage players in strange roles scares me too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Trapattoni reiterated his suspicion that Ireland don't have the players to suit the system, pointing out that McClean, Duff and Aiden McGeady are better served as wingers in a 4-4-2 because in a 4-3-3 they would have additional responsibility to score goals, and they don't have prolific track records in this department.

To be fair, that is a good counter argument to the 4-3-3/4-5-1 proposal

Tets, is Pearce U21 eligible? (oK, he has yet to commit).

I think Hoolahan, Henderson and O'Brien (if fit) could be picked ahead of Green, Forde and McShane and Clark and Meyler could have been invited along.

I take your point though that real change could still actually happen with this squad (the 6 I named in post no. 66) as long as some of the "less popular" players aren't picked to play, but I'm not holding my breath.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

To be fair, that is a good counter argument to the 4-3-3/4-5-1 proposal

I don't think it is tbh. I think that argument disguises the fact that the real purpose of the change is to be better in possession, which in turn increases chances of getting goals. We can have two prolific strikers upfront and no possession...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Tets, is Pearce U21 eligible? (oK, he has yet to commit).

I think Hoolahan, Henderson and O'Brien (if fit) could be picked ahead of Green, Forde and McShane and Clark and Meyler could have been invited along.

I take your point though that real change could still actually happen with this squad (the 6 I named in post no. 66) as long as some of the "less popular" players aren't picked to play, but I'm not holding my breath.

To be honest I don't expect the final squad to be the same as it is now, who gets called up when players inevitably pull out will be interesting.

If some of the likes of Wilson, McCarthy, Coleman & McClean start getting intergrated into the team then that's a much as I'd have hoped for. The way some people are going on (moreso on YBIG to be fair) we should be making 11 changes to the starting side. Might as well just start the 21's for the senior campaign....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Tets, is Pearce U21 eligible? (oK, he has yet to commit).

No, according to wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Pearce - he was born on 9 November 1988 and is 23 so overage for the U21s

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think Hoolahan, Henderson and O'Brien (if fit) could be picked ahead of Green, Forde and McShane and Clark and Meyler could have been invited along.

All valid, but Hoolahan's position could be filled with Kendrick/Brady/White if they were available. Same goes for McShane with Duffy/Egan. Meyler's probably better off getting back into the first team picture at Sunderland before thinking about the Ireland squad. Be nice to see him in the November friendly, assuming there is one

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Miguel Delaney's take is that it will be 442:

Despite the opportunity the Serbia friendly provides, he did not call up a single player that hasn�t been in a squad before and kept the numbers at the surprisingly limited 23. Experimentation, it seems, will only go so far.

That was also reflected in his rationale for not trying out three in midfield. Essentially, Trapattoni explained that Ireland don�t have central midfielders of sufficient attacking quality to properly support a lone striker. In order for his team to pose an attacking threat, he argued, they need to keep two up front.

"Many other teams have the potential for midfielders to go up front. Ours do not score many goals. It�s important."
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...ap-201520.html

And Indo saying something similar:

Keith Andrews is suspended for Kazakhstan so he is also allowed to miss this trip. McCarthy will deputise after telling Trapattoni he is ok to travel despite his father's ongoing health problems.

"Don't forget Darron Gibson," said Trap, an ironic comment considering the Everton man felt that he was completely overlooked by the Italian during the Euros, and nearly stormed out.

"I wish to try James," Trapattoni continued. "He can show us he is ready for an away game, because when the World Cup starts, we have an away game. We need to try our options and, after Serbia, we can decide who plays in Kazakhstan."

However, the discussion revolved around a straight swap for Andrews rather than a modification of formation and the inclusion of three central midfielders. Trapattoni reiterated his suspicion that Ireland don't have the players to suit the system, pointing out that McClean, Duff and Aiden McGeady are better served as wingers in a 4-4-2 because in a 4-3-3 they would have additional responsibility to score goals, and they don't have prolific track records in this department.

Yet in an apparent contradiction, he explained the omission of the creative Wes Hoolahan by stating that McCarthy is the same type of player so there was no point bringing them both in. A fleeting reference to Stephen Ireland was dismissed in similar terms. Confusing.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...s-3174890.html

If true and we stick with 4-4-2 for the upcoming campaign then I already know the outcome. There are no guarantees a 4-2-3-1 would work with the players we have but what have we to lose, we won't have a hope against Sweden playing a flat system and Germany will be ugly. 4-4-2 is a good safe tactic against minnows but wheres the pressure limitation formation against a better team? Why doesn't it exist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murfinator

If true and we stick with 4-4-2 for the upcoming campaign then I already know the outcome. There are no guarantees a 4-2-3-1 would work with the players we have but what have we to lose, we won't have a hope against Sweden playing a flat system and Germany will be ugly. 4-4-2 is a good safe tactic against minnows but wheres the pressure limitation formation against a better team? Why doesn't it exist?

Nothing has changed. What some of us feared after the 3-2 loss at home against Russia has been proven. That this manager does not believe he has the players to compete against certain teams. I don't believe he will be in charge come the Sweden game Murfinator but by then the damage will have been done.

I think the points that Trap made the players fear the good teams and that he doesn't believe we can compete with good teams even in qualification are valid.

Being an underdog doesn't mean you need to be intimidated.

I see no justification in sticking with a system that ensures we're on the back foot especially if the boss thinks we're inferior. Pressure limitation as Murf (and our actual midfielders) says, but also to help us play WITH the ball.

I don't buy the explanation that you need players used to scoring goals to make it work, and in any event I think our players can score from advanced positions.

I added Padraig Amond, Barry Maguire and Cillian Sheridan to the list as well.

Here's something to occupy your mind, pick a 23 man B squad from that list, give a formation, tactics and substitutions.
Explain your workings and marks will be deducted for bad penmanship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I don't buy the explanation that you need players used to scoring goals to make it work, and in any event I think our players can score from advanced positions.

The point Trap is making is that a 4-3-3 is not workable because we don't have the midfield players to replace Robbie Keane's goals. And he's completely right.

And how many chances do we concede even against even mediocre teams from being overrun in midfield? Lots last time out, and in the pre-tournament friendlies.

We may get away with it, we may not next time out.

And who's to say Long, for example, couldn't score similar goals? We score feck all goals from open play or well worked moves.

Off the top of my head, last campaign we scored the following goals:

Armenia: Fahey away, a daft OG and a Dunne bundle-in job.
Russia: Keane penalty, Long shot from 12 yards.
Slovakia: Sledge after a set piece. No goals at home, but a glaring Keane miss.
Macedonia (away) Keane deflected shot and a quality finish after he intercepted a back pass. (home) McGeady and Keane tap-in after a Gibson free. Keeper to blame for each.
Andorra: Kilbane, Doyle and tidy goal from Keane. away, Doyle and McGeady
Estonia; Andrews, Walters, Keane rebound, Keane pen, Ward.

From the above, there's nothing there to say that we only got those results from our 442 and that the way we played lead to Keane's goals. None involved any great teamwork except for Andorra home.

I posted here a couple of weeks ago that I don't buy into the fact that Keane can only play 442. The Danes had a very effective 433 variant with 2 wide players surrounding Tomassen, who remained prolific. Keane thrives on service. It could be argued credibly that he'd get better service with more possession and better ball players rather than chasing shadows. It could also be argued that Doyle or Long could easily get the type of goals Keane got last campaign if we Keane wasn't there. I think it can be very credibly argued - given the list of Keane's goals above - that most were probably despite and not because of our 442 shape.

What worries me is how much possession we concede to everyone. Leave the Euros aside, they were all quality teams. But we had absolutely horrible patches against every team above bar Andorra. I think, but obviously can't prove, that we'd actually make it easier for ourselves with more bodies where it counts, with pace from wide and a reliable goalscore in the middle, which I think Keane, Doyle and Long are. I think Doyle's record is distorted. He's a bit of a Froome to Keane's Wiggins in a sense. Both Doyle and Long can feel they've been "crowded out" a bit by Keane. I've no complaints with that, my point is that if Keane wasn't our star scorer Doyle and Long might have had more goals for us by now.

I wasn't attributing the goals to the system, I was attributing them to Keane. Throughout qualifying we displayed a knack for scoring goals in spite of our negative play, and I think some of that has to be put down to having two players to occupy the centre halves. I'm not sure we have a midfield mobile enough to compensate for one fewer striker, which I think is the point Trapattoni was saying.

I'm no fan of the 442 but whatever we gain in solidity from a 433 I think we would lose in other areas. We would just be a different type of defensive team.

I'd like to see us trying three at the back (O'Shea, Dunne and St Ledger) with McClean as the left side defensive midfielder. Duff further ahead on the left. Gibson and McCarthy in the center and McGeady out right. Play Doyle(or Walters) in the hole and Long(or Keane) up front on his own. McClean has the pace and engine to do both jobs of defending and helping out in attack. He is also excellent in the air. Doyle was excellent against Italy when he dropped back a bit. And Westwood to start in goal.

Now there's a bold move and one I like. Italy was refreshing in the Euros doing something like that early on. Coleman could be the other wide option. But totally off the cards for us given how unlikely it is.

Charlie, I think Trap's point was clear - none of our midfielders is a prolific scorer. I think that's a clever but fallacious retort to the real question.

Serbia V Republic of Ireland - Wednesday, 15th August 2012 - Friendly