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On Foot.ie ?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Why Yes, yes you are :)
I know it's not the same thing but I'd imagine the re-offending rates in some of those Arab countries are pretty lowQuote:
Can I just throw out a question: does anyone know of a good model prison system anywhere in the world? One with a very high success rate of rehabilitation or something of the sort?
Ah but that's if you do it the namby, pamby way :pQuote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
The people Im talking about(not just any criminal) are people I would have no problem leaving rot in prison for life. Some things are imo unforgivable.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Im not talking about prison in general. I specifically mentioned people I would consider 'scum'. Of course there is a need to try to reform the majority of prisoners, they will be on the streets again and need to learn to live differently. Also i'd take away the mobiles and the drugs ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Anto, I like your thinking a lot, fair play for the bit of innovation, the world needs more of your sort! The great thing about your idea is how incentivized it could be. The harder a prisoner works/more bible classes, whatever initiative, they do then the sooner they would be released, and the harder they work the more they get into a routine of working, enjoy the simple pleasure of it and overall are far less likely to waste their lives upon release.
Au contraire mon frere, it is essential! :) Conventional wisdom (if you do something wrong you need assurance it won't hang over for ever, life goes on) and this video* I just rooted out of the YouTube mire would suggest that the Bible can play an integral role in rehabilitation. For anyone not bothered watching the video, in summary, it details how the most notoriously violent and dangerous prison in the US, Angola in Louisiana, cleaned up its act to become the vanguard of maximum security prisons thanks to a major focus by the warden on religion. Somewhat bizarrely, there's a real loving atmosphere there now. I just watched another video with the warden, Burl Cain, and he reckons moral rehabilitation should be the main focus in reforming prisoners, with meaningful work also very important. Interestingly, he reckons out of the 5,000 serious criminals he oversees that definitely a couple hundred would not re-offend, and he seems a very forthright fella so I'd take his word for it!Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I acknowledge that the prison involved is for serious crimes - something like 85% of the inmates die there - so in that case religion becomes more relevant as the prisoners, generally, realise that they actually have something to be repentant about. Whether it would be quite so successful for less heinous crimes I'm not so sure given the shorter outlook, but I definitely think the principles can be carried over to a certain degree.
I believe that if such a culture of love (:eek: I know, but I think the more incongruous the atmosphere in the prison the better as the 'hard men' would hate going back and those on the borderline might begin to see the light) could permeate our prison service things would dramatically improve. Because lets face it what are criminals but compassionless souls, understandable when they've likely never been loved by anyone. Love and all the bible teaches is exactly what they need to reform, or rewire if you will, themselves. If we could begin to make such headway then the rising tide will raise all spirits, look at the lads in Angola prison, there's a real joyous atmosphere, people hugging each other and everything, so if that began to seep in those on the periphery could well take the 'if you can't beat them join them approach.'
Finally, for a bit of Irish insight, (ie bang your head off the wall) I found a pretty good article where the author's view is that the younger offenders are the one's we need to target as they're still developing so he spends time in St. Patrick's Institute, which he says is "a disaster, an obscenity and reveals the moral bankruptcy of the policies of the Minister for Justice." It's worth reading if you get the chance, basically it shows up the lack of focus on rehabilitation in our prisons.
*(Well well worth watching if you're in doubt as to the relevance of religion in rehabilitation. One thing, there's just music for the first two minutes so, although nice and tranquil, you might like to let it load and come back to it.)
Right, I've watched the video, and I've put some parts of your post in boldQuote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Firstly, "it is essential". This is getting into the territory of the Dawkins thread on here, but it is not essential to be religious to be moral. Indeed, I believe that not doing something wrong because you are afraid of God's punishment is less moral than not doing something wrong because you think it's wrong.
"Moral rehabilitation". Again, there needs to be a distinction made between "moral reform" and "religious reform". The two can be, and often are completely unrelated. Religious people, as far as I'm concerned, have no innate superiority when it comes to morals. To be blunt about it, you don't need to be afraid of God, or even to believe in God, to know what is right and wrong, and what the consequences are of crimes. You can be an anti-theist, and still a moral person. And you don't need to believe in God to be able to be truly repentant of a crime.
The idea that they have never been loved.......to be sure some do come from broken homes, and broken families, but there are many others who grew up in a loving home, with a true sense of love, who still went on to become violent criminals. And indeed many criminals have had families, wives, children, who have testified to their parental/spousal love, while at the same time they were committing heinous crimes.
"teaches"......this word is usually used for the imparting of something not previously known. "All the Bible teaches".....what does it teach that we don't know already. Again, ideas such as love, compassion, charity, forgiveness - non-religious people can identify with these things too. I dare say that all the inmates at Angola have both shown and been the recipients of all of these, at some point in their lives, yet have still committed crimes.
Finally, regarding the "spirit of love" we see in the video, and its effect on crimes......others have a different opinion.
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/05/19/793/53911
In short, I'm all for rehabilitation (although I do feel the element of punishment should not be overlooked). I'm talking about teaching practical skills, social and communication skills, instilling a sense of respect for others and of respect for themselves. I don't think that God is necessary to do these things.Quote:
Angola is no longer the most violent prison in the country, even though it only takes prisoners serving 50 years or more. The prisoners are too old. At Angola, they call it "criminal menopause."
But thats in your life Osarusan, you have to realise that a lot of prisoners feel they are bad in nature, that morally they are bankrupt, and they need help from someone in this respect. So if they start believing that God is with them, and that all they need to do is ask for help to make the right choices it gives them a fresh outlook on life, that maybe they can change and they will be able to make the right choices. As for death row prisioners the Bible, Koran, whathaveyou is useful in sending these people to their death with some possible hope that they might be saved after all. In those respects I agree that religion is very useful in helping to turn someones life around, honestly I think it's why I respect religion so much, that they don't wash their hands of a human being, even if everyone else is.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Personally I think the way forward for prisons is to stamp out drugs, but allow things like cigarettes, offer more classes and courses for the inmates, increase the prisoners out of cell time and allow them to access to better fitness facilities (I hear the ones in Irish prisons are a joke), libraries and things like musical instruments, art rooms, and even gaming rooms. Basically encourage these people to change for the better at every given turn, and then provide the means for them to do so
Actually no, no he wasn't:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
John - Let us pave the way together for the Great Foot.ie Dostoyevsky and otehr Russian Authors of Note Thread!