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TBH I think McAteer would have gotten one or two England caps in his Bolton/early Liverpool days if he hadnt declared for Ireland. Of course that dont mean he'd have had an international Career.
Its not really fair to judge. We dont know his family history, maybe all along he was aware of his Irish blood but it never really effected his life until that point where he had to choose to give up his chance of playing for England
How was it sweeping Eanna? I wrote about one player specifically. I then mention a number of others. I never once talked about generalities, and I never once mentioned, commented on, or alluded to anybody's race.
And as this is a public forum I think telling meil McD to stay out of it is a bit childish too...
Thank you Dodge and Eanna i think you will find that you interefered in a bit of banter between me an Conor the other day too. I think on a forum to say someones comments are racist you have to have your facts correct otherwise you should take them back and apoligise. It is a forum and i am entitled to my opinion and it is not been facetious getting the definition of the word racism. As when using that word you should make sure you have the facts to back it up as it is pretty insulting to say to someong your comments are racist.
Dodge, Just wondering how you reconcile the following statements you've made:
"Anything that drives McAteer out of the squad has to be good. "
and
"I'm not criticising McAteer on his footballing ability or his effort."
"While playing for Ireland he has shown more effort than most. "
Could you also explain to me under what circumstances Irish passport holders do not hold Irish nationality?
as I said. If I wanted advice from you I'd have askedQuote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
sweeping in that you dismissed his irishness at the stroke of a few keys. geenbods post above puts it very well IMO. Can we give up the semantics please- I withdrew my sugeestion that it was racist but I still think it was prejudiced and wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
For Semantic I read facts, this is the classic move by someone who has been found out to be wrong and then they go well stop be petty, semantic etc etc. You called the comments that Dodge made , as racist. They were not and I am entitled to state that on the forum as it is by its definition a place for people to air there views.
I think I made several long(ish) posts on why I don't think he deserved a place in the Irish squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbod
His footballing ability has nothing to do with his Irishness. By your logic, if Ronaldo tried for Ireland he'd be Irish...
I've a pain in my head explaining myself here. I got Eanna to take back his rascist jibes. I don't care if people don't like my opinion, I just don't want to miscontrue them
Whether you think he deserves an Irish passport or not is irrelevent. You said he isn't Irish. Fact is he has one and is Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
As far as I know Ronaldo has no Irish relatives and would not be eligible for an Irish passport. Even if he did have the luck to discover that he was Irish, it's too late for him anyway as he's already played senior International football for Brazil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
And to think we're about to vote on a referendum that would still allow opportunists like McAteer and Clinton Morrison to get Irish passports but wouldn't guarantee those born on the island citzenship. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
For instance German international Mehmet Scholl has Turkish parents and had no problem obtaining German citizenship yet other Germans of Turkish descent can't get citizenship because they don't have Scholl's talents.
This is the road we are going down with this discriminatory referendum.
If you're looking for racists then Dodge (and even Big Ron) don't fit the bill. McDowell and his cronies do.
KOH
Of course not, they would both be Irish but we're trying to deny some people that fundamental right. Here's one for you - Clinton Morrison or a 4-year-old of Romanian parentage born in Ireland. One born and lives here, the other with fook all Irish "heritage". Which one is more Irish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
The German/Turkish analogy is a good one. I met Turks in Germany whose families had been there for three generations and had no German citizenship rights. They had contributed to German society culturally, economically and socially for decades yet had no rights to a passport. But because Mehmet Scholl is good at football he's German?
And we want to "fall into line" with this twisted racist thinking?
KOH
Highly unusual but correct. Good Friday Agreement, Articles 2 & 3 - we have a very specific situation in this country where 6 counties are ruled by a foreign country. People born in the 6 counties have to have the automatic right to being Irish because they are Irish. This logically extends to those born in the south.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
This may be an anomaly, as you point out, but if we continue to let Germany and France call the shots on EU citizenship then we will have the German/Turkish situation in Ireland sooner rather than later.
If we are able to have protocols over issues like abortion why not over citizenship. As I said, we're in a unique situation. If we pass this referendum it will once more be a case of running away from our Northern countrymen and women.
KOH
Nail on the head, my friend. I think that's what frustrates me most - the fact that we legislate reactively and never proactively. And that goes for all parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74
KOH
Reactive legislation has been a classic feature of developed democratic government from the time of the Athenians onwards. Proactive lawmaking is invariably attacked in conventional right-wing and libertarian schools of thought as "creeping government", "nanny state-ism", etc., although in some fields (post 11 September 2001 civil contingency and counter-terrorism measures in countries like the UK) the boundaries are blurring a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreRovers
:) PP
Spot on PP. But in this country, and most "liberal democracies", retroactive legislation is used to suit the agendas of the Big Brother/Nanny State types, which makes it twice as galling.
I have strong Libertarian tendencies myself so I hate ALL governments and their poxy legislation. :)
KOH
Sadly, I missed a great cyber punch-up on Irish citizenship having had the misfortune to travel to Poland on business and sample the wide variety of lagers that will be entering the EU tomorrow. So, if I'm not too late, here's my two cents:
Sorry but having 1 grandparent does not make someone Irish. Even more so if a generation of 'awareness' of one's Irishness has been missed. Andy Townsend supported England in Euro 88; two years later he's playing against them. Hardly consistency here. Same with Aldridge, Cascarino, Robinson, Morrison. Morrison kisses the badge: He can kiss my a*se and it would still not change anything: His past statements suggest that to say he's Irish is making me feel like the little boy in Andersen's The Emperor's New Clothes. Michael Robinson was wrapping himself in the tricolour when he played for us - even telling me in Reykjavik that there's a big tricolour above his son's bed. Anyone here puts a flag above their son's bed? Robo was 4G with just one great-grandparent. So imagine how f*cked up his son became when his father, after being discarded by Charlton, claims it was all cojones: That he was a mercenary.
I have some sympathy with you Dodge, although at first you p*ssed me off with your hamfisted statements. However, all of the above players qualify for an Irish passport legally (including Cascarino). No dodgy deals that the Qataris were trying; no jumping the queue like the Tans with Zola Budd; no blatant discrimination like the Germans with Dundee and the Ghanaian (think Mehmet Scoll had a German father). It's their right according to Irish law. And that right is all that FIFA are looking for.
As for citizenship, Ius Sanguinis will always override Ius Soli. Just because Ireland has tried to balance one with the other for over eighty years is solely down to most of it's applicants for passports were for them to get out of the country rather than to remain. Personally speaking, if you pay taxes, you should be able to vote for the gangstas who are responsible for spending it without this impinging on your own foreign identity.
Well said. If I had tuppence for every time some thick charver said "well if you love Ireland so much, why dontcha fahk off back there then?" I'd be a rich man. My counter-argument has always been that which you've outlined. But I digress.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
:) PP
Got a number of friends with 1 Irish grandparent and while they are proud of their Irish heritage none of them consider themselves Irish. That one grandparent would have to have one hell of a patriarhal/matriarchal influence over the rest of the family for it ever to be otherwise. That said I'm happy to have people like McAteer in the team as they strengthen a very small squad.
Firstly, yes it is my opinion. Secondly you are correct about the former only if that person actually gets the passport. Hence the line of my post: 'It's their right according to Irish law [to Irish citizensip]' which is all in the subjunctive. (I know my rant was a bit long but try to keep up). E.g.: Andy Townsend in 1988, British, while cheering for the Tans in Ibiza. Andy Townsend in 1990, 'Irish' while playing for Ireland against the team he was cheering for two years previously. Andy Townsend in 2004: British or Irish? My money's firmly on the former, considering his efforts to get the Irish team to wear armbands over the death of the ex of his former country's head of state's son.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor74