Anglo Billions

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

His point was perfectly valid in fairness. My mortgage repayments have dropped from E1,400 a month interest only to about E1k a month with E300 capital being paid off. Over the life of the mortgage, I'm clearly going to pay less as a result.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Rational? Please, you are like a FF head saying how wonderful and great things are/were, even if we didnt know it!!!
Please tell me how the average tax payers has benefited from a FF led government through the last few years - Im all ears!!!

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

I think we all know ORA knows more about financial matters than the whole of FF and therefore nothing like a FF head but he's well able to defend himself so i'll stop now.

How we "benfited" is debatable but try SSIA, low earners out of the tax net, highest dole payments in Europe, college fees abolished etc etc. The thing is who ever got in after the 1997 election would probably done all of these things to a greater or lesser extent, in turn crippling the school leavers of the noughties anyway.

We all had choices during the late ninties, early noughties - go to college/get a trade or go laboring, rent or get on the property ladder, buy the newest reg car or get great value in the older stock no one wanted, spend your wages or save for the bust when it came. It comes down to good or bad decisions taken at that time (now with the benifit of 20/20 hinsight.)
Twenty year olds in the mid 90s had lots of opportunity to do well and and take opportunities to secure themselves in the knowledge that when the bang came they'd be ok. Or they bought that 4 x 4 and speedboat.

However on stu's point, it could be argued that the low interest rates on your mortgage mean you end up paying what you should have paid on the property if the bubble wasn't created and the morgage rates were closer to the norm. (i.e higher than they are now.)

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I think that captures my point. I deliberately went out of my way to say that we wouldn't benefit in the long-run, but for a country that worships at the altar of home ownership, you can't ignore the low interest rates.

What's unsaid in the papers and media is that whilst a significant percentage of the country are struggling to make ends meet, saddled with debt and loss of employment, a larger tranche of the population (those in employment who haven't taken paycuts) are essentially unaffected. I say that not to take away from the suffering of those living with the results of misGovernment, but to flag the fallacy that the whole country is suffering. Far from it in fact.

In many ways it's a generational thing, with the younger generational shouldering a disproportionate amount of the burden.
As for the comments re FF, I'm not even going to respond. I've never given them a vote and don't see that changing.

There is higher taxes and levies now for people who are working so its wrong to say they are unaffected.
Given most pensions schemes were heavily invested in the banks its wrong to say its the younger generation who are shouldering all the burden. I dont have a mortgage so didnt benefit from low interest rates in that regard and even if I did given the size of the mortgages people took out the term "benefit" would be relative. I dont buy the "Joe Duffy brigade commenting on things they dont know anything about" line either. They know its their money. Surely thats enough to warrant comment informed or uninformed. Also given the fact that very senior people in all the global financial institutions got it wrong we can dismiss anyone claiming to be an expert one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I dont buy the "Joe Duffy brigade commenting on things they dont know anything about" line either. They know its their money. Surely thats enough to warrant comment informed or uninformed.

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I'm not sure if anything really warrants uninformed comment to be honest.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'm not sure if anything really warrants uninformed comment to be honest.

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pointless

Jeez it seems like Ireland is a great place!!!! I thought we were in a recession, silly me!

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Jeez it seems like Ireland is a great place!!!! I thought we were in a recession, silly me!

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In your post above you generalised the whole country into people living in the midlands. Less than 15% of the population live in the midlands.

I'm not sure what your point is tbh? Do you not agree a large percentage of the country haven't really been impacted (if you don't, you're wrong)? Do you accept it's true but thinks it's irrelevant (fine, but don't deny that it isn't true).

I don't see a problem in taking the view that successive Governments have made a bags of running the country, yet at the same time noting large swathes of the population have been pretty much unaffected.

And Billsthoughts, time will tell, but I completely disagree the impact isn't generational. The younger generations will pay an undue share. Some retirees or near retirees will see pension cuts, whilst the generations below won't have a pension to draw from as the well will be dry.

Well nearly half a million unemployed, god knows how many emigrated (myself and wife included), thousands burdened with mortgages in rubbish homes. Maybe I am generalising but that's where I'm coming from, Im sorry i dont know what its like to live in D4 or where ever. Also find it funny that you are from Northern Ireland (Britain) and seem to have this great grasp about what's happening down south!!! LOL

See, that's why I reckon uninformed comment is never worth it. Given I've met ORA a couple of times and he coming home from his job in Dublin, I think he's perfectly qualified to talk about things here from that perspective anyway.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

See, that's why I reckon uninformed comment is never worth it. Given I've met ORA a couple of times and he coming home from his job in Dublin, I think he's perfectly qualified to talk about things here from that perspective anyway.

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That's fair enuff, good that he got a job as well, plenty havent.
Anyway I was only taking the p

So Anglo is now going to cost €29.3 billion at best, €34 billion in a "worst-case scenario". The last estimate on pulling the plug immediately was €70 billion, so it appears there's little alternative to the current plan, but the new structure does seem unnnecessarily complicated. Meanwhile, any of you with AIB shares will have diluted assets, with the State owning 85-90%.

I admire AIB's optimism in their plan to raise equity from the open market at 50c a share....

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Originally Posted by culloty82

The last estimate on pulling the plug immediately was €70 billion, so it appears there's little alternative to the current plan, but the new structure does seem unnnecessarily complicated. Meanwhile, any of you with AIB shares will have diluted assets, with the State owning 85-90%.

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Yeah, but whose estimate was it. Because Gov.ie's claims about allowing it to die have been wishy-washy at best. There's zero doubt in my mind that there will be a catastrophe if Anglo goes to the wall, they just haven't told us why yet.

I have a few shares in AIB, BOI too. I'm in no rush. They'll be back where they were by the time I retire, at worst.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

There's zero doubt in my mind that there will be a catastrophe if Anglo goes to the wall, they just haven't told us why yet.

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For whom is probably more what they won't tell us. I'm not convinced it's the state.

It'd be both, imho.

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Originally Posted by culloty82

So Anglo is now going to cost €29.3 billion at best, €34 billion in a "worst-case scenario".

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The €29bn~ is a warped figure based on existing property values not shrinking drastically further. The "worst case scenario" is a given. S&P's have been bang on the money.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ar/416465.html

I'd been looking for this link for a while and a colleague sent it on today (well, given the day that's in it why not!). Ufa was one of the "destinations" for Irish investment and was largely guided by an Irish individual working for a Russian bank who was double-jobbing and remains in situ, mainly because he earned his bank, boss and the region in which the bank originates/is based a fortune! To date c. 250million euros was openly "invested" in Bashkortistan by Irish property speculators and lost, the same was also spent in the region and resulted in what this article describes - sites that have ceased working, are in financial dire straits, or are on land that could not have been sold in the first place.

Now given that a number of sites in the Moscow region have disappeared in similiar schemes (involving Quinn), as well as at least 3 large projects that had large amounts spent on them but subsequently folded for gigantic losses, all of this is floating back towards Anglo and AIB. However I'm confused on this, with at least a billion spent on Russian projects that have gone bust alone, what will happen to these?

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...ar/416465.html

I'd been looking for this link for a while and a colleague sent it on today (well, given the day that's in it why not!). Ufa was one of the "destinations" for Irish investment and was largely guided by an Irish individual working for a Russian bank who was double-jobbing and remains in situ, mainly because he earned his bank, boss and the region in which the bank originates/is based a fortune! To date c. 250million euros was openly "invested" in Bashkortistan by Irish property speculators and lost, the same was also spent in the region and resulted in what this article describes - sites that have ceased working, are in financial dire straits, or are on land that could not have been sold in the first place.

Now given that a number of sites in the Moscow region have disappeared in similiar schemes (involving Quinn), as well as at least 3 large projects that had large amounts spent on them but subsequently folded for gigantic losses, all of this is floating back towards Anglo and AIB. However I'm confused on this, with at least a billion spent on Russian projects that have gone bust alone, what will happen to these?

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As I said the last time you raised this, the same thing that happens to unsecured loans that default in Ireland or elsewhere. If they are NAMA-eligible, NAMA pay nothing for them as security isn't perfected and Anglo write off the full amount. If they aren't NAMA eligible (and if the are development rather than investment loans, they should be), then they will end up being fully written off at some stage.

I don't see the difference in these loans and Irish loans, the bottom line is the same, just a different type of fraud!

You know, it's something that just makes you wonder (as you called it fraud) just where the money has gone. I just heard on drivetime that AIB have 7-8billion in losses that will have to be disclosed - supposedly we have zombie banks! The Russian land deals, as far as I know, were set against Irish holdings, the land bought was worthless for the most part (one a swamp where metres of pylons just kept sinking). One thing that I find most disgusting is that it was a supposed Irish expert who drew large amounts of money, has kept his bank position (obviously) but not a single word in Ireland has been written about going after him, and I wonder if it shame or pride that prevents the Quinns etc from opening the barrels!

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I agree it's farcical in the extreme.

But with interest rates over the last 15 years significantly lower than history, the average taxpayer has benfited whether they acknowledge it or not.

Time will tell the price that has to be paid for the low interest rate & home ownership religion that was allowed to build up.

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Is that time soon? do you reckon!!!!

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Is that time soon? do you reckon!!!!

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We'll be paying for it for the next 30-50 years unless we get some element of debt forgiveness. As to the final cost, we still have no idea.