Jason Byrne

Never said there were no quality players in the EL. That's not the point i've been making. I just think the step from playing EL football to International level is too big a jump. I want to see O'Flynn, Byrne, Zayed, etc prove they can do it at a higher level before they get into the Ireland set up. Same way i want Heffernan to prove himself at, at least 1st Division standard. No great fan of Connolly, Lee, or Morrison but they have proven themselves at 1st Division level football at minimum. If you think the EL is as strong as the English First Division you are deluding yourselves. But what would i know as i'm alegedly an armchair supporter who wouldn't know an EL player if he smacked him in the face. :rolleyes:

Hardly disgusted. Reckon it's bad move for him though considering he was a regular in the Sunderland side before injury and could well be playing Premiership football next season.

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Originally Posted by Conor74

You'll be disgusted at the rumour then that Thomas Butler wants to leave Sunderland - apparently he wants to come back and play here...

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Excellent! Hey, maybe he's coming to us. He's from Ballymun like me and I used to play football with his brother (I think.) Might offer my services as a go-between.

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Originally Posted by Bowsy

No great fan of Connolly, Lee, or Morrison but they have proven themselves at 1st Division level football at minimum.

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Debateble. Lee has had one good half season in the first division and has been absolutley useless, even at that level, since and before then. I might be wrong, but I think he doesn't even get his game for Cardiff anymore.

As for Butler, I wouldn't mind him at Shels. Injuries have really set him back but at one point he was looking like he could be an absolute gem. An injury free season for him would be fantastic, the talent is there.

it may well be true that eL clubs get knocked out of europe by clubs people have never heard of...but most of those clubs would have thier fair share of internationals.

imo crowe didn't look out of place against greece and had a few good chances.

wouldn't it be great if all irish players could play at the top level like richie partridge

Im a Forest fan and its the first Ive heard hes on the way to us I was down their last week. Not sure if hes good enough to step up to be honest. Heffernan that is.

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Originally Posted by eoinh

Err whats he going to say? That its slow and not intense. One of the faults with LOI football is that its too fast, not too slow. Rangers and Celtic of Glasgow derbies may be be fast and intense but that doesnt mean theres much good football on show.

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I didn't put it well, I had meant to say he said he was "surprised" how intense the sessions were, the sub-text of what he was saying was that essentially it was a much higher level than he was used to.

As i said i'm no fan of Lee but he had two 15 goal plus seasons with a poor Rotherham side before going to Cardiff. He was first choice before an Injury that kept him out for most of the season. He's started more games than not since returning despite the fact that Earnshaw's partner for most of the season Thorne has had a really good year. Also has a chance of making play offs and playing Premiership football next year.

Petef...Heffernan has refused a contract with Notts County and apparently their offer would have put him near the top of their wage earners...also I met some notts count y fans and they said tha the is gonna leave and they thought forest were favourites...he can't go on a bosman as he is under 23/24 . To be fair to the guy he has loads of pace and is quite a good finisher. I don't hink he'd walk straight into the forest team but I do think Smoking Joe could make a decent player of him

anyway their only all rumours

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

I didn't put it well, I had meant to say he said he was "surprised" how intense the sessions were, the sub-text of what he was saying was that essentially it was a much higher level than he was used to.

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What's your point?

Of course it's a higher level than he's used to, the same goes for division one players and probably even premiership players. The debate is weather or not they can step up to the higher level of international football. There's only one way to find out.

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Originally Posted by Bowsy

No great fan of Connolly, Lee, or Morrison but they have proven themselves at 1st Division level football at minimum. If you think the EL is as strong as the English First Division you are deluding yourselves. :

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City, Bohs and Shels would easily be up to the standard of a lot of English division one teams. You're the one whose deluding yourself.... Sky Sports tell you that English football (outside top Premiership teams) is of a good standard and you believe them.
John O'Flynn is better than Connolly, Lee, or Morrison (don't argue unless you've seen him play a few times) and Crowe is as. Don't really rate Jason Byrne myself but I'd play him ahead of a waster like Connolly anyday.

As for the wages, it's irrelevant to the debate really but most of the top players here earn more than any divison 2 or 3 player in England and probably quite a few first division players aswell. In fact, a chairman of a 2nd division club was in the papers a few months ago giving out that they can't compete with the crazy money that Irish clubs are offering players.
So Petef, Bowsy and co answer me this.... why would players want to play in the lower English divisions when they can play in the el and earn more money and have the oppurtunity to play European football.

Didn't Thomas Heary, a regular for Huddersfield in both the first and second division, leave them to join Bohs despite being offered a new contract by them and being a regular in their side?

Also, there's talk of this fella Dean (I think that's his name) from Charlton is being let go, Irish U21 international, he has an offer from Luton on the table but wants to come here and Bohs, Shels Cork and another team, I forget who, are all bidding for him at the moment.

Thomas Butler has also asked for the remaining 12 months of his Sunderland contract to be cancled so he can come over here but that's just a rumour at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Colm

City, Bohs and Shels would easily be up to the standard of a lot of English division one teams. You're the one whose deluding yourself...

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You're taking the ****, right?

Two years ago as a Division 1 side, Ipswich got to the third-round of the UEFA Cup before losing narrowly to Slovan Liberec. When Cork, Bohemians or Shelbourne do the same, then I'll take your comments seriously. Until then, it's all I'll be able to do to keep a straight... no... can't... :D :D :rolleyes:

:D PP

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

You're taking the ****, right?

Two years ago as a Division 1 side, Ipswich got to the third-round of the UEFA Cup before losing narrowly to Slovan Liberec. When Cork, Bohemians or Shelbourne do the same, then I'll take your comments seriously. Until then, it's all I'll be able to do to keep a straight... no... can't... :D :D :rolleyes:

:D PP

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A side which had just finished fifth in the premiership a year before and still had alot of players from that side, including their captain. I think he was talking mainly about the lower sides in division one rather then the premiership promotion chasers. Bohs, Shels and Cork are, at least, the higher end of second division in England standard, which isn't far away from the lower end of division one

Hmm Bohs and Shels would be fighting a relegation battle in Division One, if even. Forest are struggling and look at the players they have, Reid and Thompson Irish Internationals, Williams - Scottish International, David Johnson top scorer last year albeit injured, Gareth Taylor, Darren Ward - Welsh Internationals, Michael Dawson - 5,6 million rated, the list goes on. Your saying they could compete, I severely doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Slash/ED

A side which had just finished fifth in the premiership a year before and still had alot of players from that side, including their captain.

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They didn't, Slash. They had a fire-sale and sold at least seven of their first team. Holland was also due to go, but turned down a £4million move to Aston Villa. Hard to believe now, innit? :)

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Originally Posted by Slash/ED

I think he was talking mainly about the lower sides in division one rather then the premiership promotion chasers. Bohs, Shels and Cork are, at least, the higher end of second division in England standard, which isn't far away from the lower end of division one

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I'm still not convinced, mate. Even at the top of the Second Division, you're talking about sides like Plymouth, Bristol City and QPR, each of whom get upwards of 15,000 each week to watch them and have playing budgets to match. I'd honestly take you half a division lower. The likes of Wrexham, Stockport and Grimsby may well be more of a match for Cork, Bohs and Shels.

:) PP

I don't think attendences are a good guide to be honest. The English lower divisions is helped by far more media coverage which gets people to the ground aswell as a tradition of supporting them, it doesn't really show standard of the players on the pitch imo. Even an English example of this would be comparing Fulham to Sunderland. Despite their attendences, their still struggling massively financially and are slashing wage bills left right and centre. That's why examples like the Thomas Heary one are starting to happen now.

Even with Ipswich selling a few, they were still a top side in the division. Not many other sides in that division would have got three rounds into Europe.

And useing the Forest example is a bit wrong imo, individually their good enough to be in the play offs imo, they've just woedully underachieved for whatever reason this season, and even at that, Houlihan had Reids favoured left wing role for the U21s for the majority of the last campaign, and he can't get a game on the left for Shels :)

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

You're taking the ****, right?

Two years ago as a Division 1 side, Ipswich got to the third-round of the UEFA Cup before losing narrowly to Slovan Liberec. When Cork, Bohemians or Shelbourne do the same, then I'll take your comments seriously. Until then, it's all I'll be able to do to keep a straight... no... can't... :D :D :rolleyes:

:D PP

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Since you live in England and your knowledge of the el is probably very limited, I'll excuse your ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Colm

Since you live in England and your knowledge of the el is probably very limited, I'll excuse your ignorance.

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My first League of Ireland game was at Oriel Park in 1980, watching the then all-conquering Dundalk side play Shelbourne. I've probably watched upwards of 150 LoI games since, which may or may not be as many as yourself in the same near-quarter century, but I think that qualifies me to talk with some degree of knowledge on Irish domestic football. So I'll see your term "ignorance". And raise you a "deluded".

I was comparing English and Irish club sides in the only competitive way we have. Europe. And with the notable exception of Bohemians a couple of years back, frankly, eL sides just don't even come close. Even way down the ladder. Get past the likes of Sliema Wanderers, Sigma Olomouc, Suduva et al, and I may just believe you.

Ignorance. Hmmm... :rolleyes:

:ball: PP

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Originally Posted by Plastic Paddy

I was comparing English and Irish club sides in the only competitive way we have. Europe.

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Yeah but to do that you've essentially got to compare el clubs with English Premiership clubs. That's hardly comparing like with like. I think we all acknowledge that el teams are not quite up to the standard of the Premiership teams. I'd say the el is on a par with Division 2 and, as I said, the top 3 teams would do quite well in Division one.