IFA sticks with Windsor Park

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15/09/2009, 1:27 PM
backstothewall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

BTW claimed one moment that he wants the best for his home city, then in the next looked forward to its main football stadium falling down.

Thats because I honestly feel if it fell over tomorrow it would be good for the city. Windsor is the worst possible place to put a replacement football stadium, for the politcal, security and tranport reasons I started off with. If it fell over tomorrow, NI were (presumably) playing their games at Ravenhill, and Linfield ceased to be subsidised by the international team, it would be good for football and the city as a whole.

And if you think Ulster would ever consider playing rugby at Windsor Park your dreaming. If you think the same about Ireland i woud suggest you speak to your doctor about some new medication. Croke Park was tricky enough.

I take your points about horse trading in the executive, but the other horse will be the "shrine to terrorism" at the maze. I don't know if Nelson McCausland or his colleagues will consider that a price worth paying. If a stadium is going to happen I think theres much more chance of it happening through Belfast City Council, especially once it gets bigger and has a bigger budget
15/09/2009, 2:33 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by gspain

It has staged rugby league games in the past too.

An All Ireland international rugby league team at that.;)
15/09/2009, 3:13 PM
gspain

Quote:

Originally Posted by backtowalsall

Thats because I honestly feel if it fell over tomorrow it would be good for the city. Windsor is the worst possible place to put a replacement football stadium, for the politcal, security and tranport reasons I started off with. If it fell over tomorrow, NI were (presumably) playing their games at Ravenhill, and Linfield ceased to be subsidised by the international team, it would be good for football and the city as a whole.

And if you think Ulster would ever consider playing rugby at Windsor Park your dreaming. If you think the same about Ireland i woud suggest you speak to your doctor about some new medication. Croke Park was tricky enough.

I take your points about horse trading in the executive, but the other horse will be the "shrine to terrorism" at the maze. I don't know if Nelson McCausland or his colleagues will consider that a price worth paying. If a stadium is going to happen I think theres much more chance of it happening through Belfast City Council, especially once it gets bigger and has a bigger budget

I think Windsor badly needs some work to all bar the Alex Russell (Kop) Stand.

I think some of the opposition to the location is historical. The area around the footbridge is now home to new yuppie flats and houses. Although I still park my southern reg car on the far side of the Lisburn Road this is more for historical reasons. Lots of NI reg cars now seem to park in this area.

Much of the opposition to the location is from those who have never been or haven't been for years.
15/09/2009, 3:23 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back to Walsall

Windsor is the worst possible place to put a replacement football stadium, for the politcal, security and tranport reasons I started off with. If it fell over tomorrow, NI were (presumably) playing their games at Ravenhill, and Linfield ceased to be subsidised by the international team, it would be good for football and the city as a whole

I've answered your objections on grounds of security and transport above. If there's land available on the Boucher Road (a few minutes walk from Windsor) it could be used for car parking.

Ravenhill is smaller, with fewer facilities and arguably even more outdated than Windsor, so no thanks.

Quote:

And if you think Ulster would ever consider playing rugby at Windsor Park your dreaming. If you think the same about Ireland i woud suggest you speak to your doctor about some new medication. Croke Park was tricky enough

Happy to be corrected on the notional possibility of Ulster rugby playing at Windsor (as I repeated above I'm not a fan). Even more fantastic than Euro 2020 being held in Aughnacloy, then? ;)

Just out of interest, where would they play home games if Ravenhill was unavailable?

Quote:

I take your points about horse trading in the executive, but the other horse will be the "shrine to terrorism" at the maze. I don't know if Nelson McCausland or his colleagues will consider that a price worth paying. If a stadium is going to happen I think theres much more chance of it happening through Belfast City Council, especially once it gets bigger and has a bigger budget

I suspect there are more unionist votes to be won by securing a stadium for NI football, than lost through agreeing a museum of paramilitarism at Long Kesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gspain

I think Windsor badly needs some work to all bar the Alex Russell (Kop) Stand

Even that needs a refurb, I think. Not Brazil will know in detail.
15/09/2009, 4:35 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Even that needs a refurb, I think. Not Brazil will know in detail.

No major work required at all to the Kop Stand - although there may be an issue with stray dogs, judging by the, erm, deposit that was found under a seat at the recent Israel friendly.:D

Poor Alex Russell - his name adorns the stand no longer - replaced by an ad for a taxi company.
15/09/2009, 11:24 PM
JerseyRed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

An All Ireland international rugby league team at that.;)

Ireland beat Samoa 30-16 in 2000 Rugby League wrold cup and Windsor on Oct 28th 2000.
16/09/2009, 8:44 AM
punkrocket

Quote:

I think some of the opposition to the location is historical. The area around the footbridge is now home to new yuppie flats and houses

I can't see what you are saying here. There have been many points made above about the unfitness for purpose of WP, history isn't really a factor unless you are talking about the historical injustices of the advantages that Linfield glean from the arrangements hitherto. What have some new flats got to do with anything? If anything they just lead to a greater parking problem and complaints from residents than before. Do you think that the area has been gentrified by these new flats? If you really think that is true or indeed relevant to the football ground then I suggest you take a closer look at conditions in The Village, the area that WP is located, it has some of the worst housing conditions and social deprivation stats in western europe.

Quote:

Much of the opposition to the location is from those who have never been or haven't been for years.

On what do you base this statement? The contributors on here seem to me to be quite well versed in the issues with WP. In any case you wouldnt need to visit the place every week to keep up to date with recent developments -the place hasn't changed in years.
16/09/2009, 9:40 AM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

There have been many points made above about the unfitness for purpose of WP

Hmm. You started the thread by criticising the IFA for ignoring potential fans 'uncomfortable' about travelling to Windsor. That discomfort isn't caused by limited carparking, surrounding narrow streets or the possibilty that Ruch Chorzow's Psycho Boys might turn up once or twice a decade and wreck a few pubs. It doesn't really have anything to do with any of those factors (real though they are), does it?

You have a fixed idea- that Windsor should close- and have basically tried to work backwards from that justifying it. Both with the traffic and security analysis, and then the flights of fancy you and Back to Walsall developed about super stadia elsewhere in Belfast and NI.

As Mr Parker and BTW said, it has to be anywhere but Windsor and the political problems explaining this are so self-evident to them as not to need even brief description. All of this ignoring that the atmosphere at NI matches has changed even if the physical surrounds of the stadium haven't.

Quote:

history isn't really a factor unless you are talking about the historical injustices of the advantages that Linfield glean from the arrangements hitherto

Ha ha. The perceived historcial injustice for most people in NI isn't Glentoran winning fewer trophies than Linfield, is it?

Quote:

What have some new flats got to do with anything? If anything they just lead to a greater parking problem and complaints from residents than before. Do you think that the area has been gentrified by these new flats? If you really think that is true or indeed relevant to the football ground then I suggest you take a closer look at conditions in The Village, the area that WP is located, it has some of the worst housing conditions and social deprivation stats in western europe

They illustrate what the Lisburn Road/ Village/ Boucher Road area (ie, Windsor's immediate surrounds) is, and has been for some years- inner city transient housing, industrial estates and new, more expensive developments. They suggest that the surrounds aren't necessarily as unwelcoming to major sections of the community as they used to be- which in itself has long been an explanation for people not wanting to go to matches.

Quote:

On what do you base this statement? The contributors on here seem to me to be quite well versed in the issues with WP. In any case you wouldnt need to visit the place every week to keep up to date with recent developments -the place hasn't changed in years

The whole point of your thread was to criticise the IFA for not making more effort to welcome people who don't go to Windsor. It's a safe assumption they didn't just stop going six months ago.

The atmosphere has changed enormously in recent years, for the better. The broad group Mr Parker talked about (although excluding himself) are so unwilling to accept that things might change, that they've committed not merely themselves but their kids and grandkids to stil be moaning about the issue in 50 years time. Generally, such people will never come to watch NI wherever they play home games, although of course in individual cases I'm delighted to be proved wrong and to make them welcome.
16/09/2009, 10:03 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Ah, the usual whataboutery after sweetness and light had broken out in the rest of thread.

There's only one way and it's not got more than one dimension.....perish the thought there would be a dissenting opinion!
16/09/2009, 10:44 AM
punkrocket

Quote:

You have a fixed idea- that Windsor should close- and have basically tried to work backwards from that justifying it

I don't know how you have come to that conclusion. I never said anywhere that windsor should close nor do I think that it should. I think that the IFA should move elsewhere, not the same thing. Linfield have been there for decades it's their constituency and that is fair enough, but to keep subsidising one team at the expense of others in the league aint good for local football.
I don't get your point about working backwards to justify anything, I believe all I have been doing is having a conversation and raising several points as the conversation progresses

Quote:

The whole point of your thread was to criticise the IFA for not making more effort to welcome people who don't go to Windsor

.

The point of the thread was to highlight the missed opportunity that moving elsewhere would have brought.
16/09/2009, 11:11 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

I don't know how you have come to that conclusion. I never said anywhere that windsor should close nor do I think that it should.

The point of the thread was to highlight the missed opportunity that moving elsewhere would have brought.

Aye, well said PR. But think yer wasting yer time on this one....the wall of paranoia is difficult to breach!
16/09/2009, 11:40 AM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

I don't know how you have come to that conclusion. I never said anywhere that windsor should close nor do I think that it should. I think that the IFA should move elsewhere, not the same thing

Let's not split hairs. You think it should close to NI matches which in practice is the same issue (if NI played elsewhere it probably would close anyway given Linfield's reduced income, but agreed that's a separate issue).

Quote:

but to keep subsidising one team at the expense of others in the league aint good for local football

As I've said repeatedly, the whole point of reveloping Windsor with a new contract between club and IFA is to, er, not to keep subsidising one club in local football as in the past.

Quote:

I don't get your point about working backwards to justify anything

You have said variously that,

* planning to redevelop Windsor with a 50% increased capacity and better facilities means 'abandoning' supporters who don't go at present. Doesn't really ring true, does it?

* it's 'tough ****' on those supporters if NI don't move to a new stadium to attract them. No it isn't- they are as welcome as anyone else to come along and may well be pleasantly surprised

* you know a few Glentoran fans who won't go to NI home games on principle (even though like me, you likely know many more who do go in practice)

* by leaving Windsor NI will be able to attract many new fans. Well, better facilities generally (as well as results on-field) tend to attract (back) fans. We'll see...

all of which does tend to suggest that, like Mr Parker, Back to Walsall and others, you think the basic problem is one of principle, that many 'potential' fans just won't go to Windsor ergo it should not stage NI games. But apologies if I misrepresent you.

Quote:

The point of the thread was to highlight the missed opportunity that moving elsewhere would have brought

Not the way you started it- you mentioned abandoning potential fans in the first post. At the very least you were being partial, even before you detailed all the advantages of new stadia.
16/09/2009, 12:26 PM
punkrocket

Quote:

you mentioned abandoning potential fans in the first post

I mentioned abandoning the policy of attracting potential fans, and I do think it's a mistake. I don't claim to be impartial on this because I think that it's a bad decision.

Quote:

You think it should close to NI matches which in practice is the same issue

I don't think that moving IFA operations out of Windsor would lead to it's closure, nor do I think that would be desirable. It may lead to the appropriate redevelopment of the ground though which would be a good thing for the league. and good for Linfield. I'm not too sure how long Linfield have been playing at Windsor but the club have been around as long as football has been played in Ireland and I'd would like to see them stay there (just as I'd like to see Crusaders remain at Seaview). The disentangling of the cosy relationship between the IFA and Linfield is necessary though and this statement of intent from the IFA does nothing to assure me that things are changing in that respect (like you I'll have to wait and see what this will mean in terms of renegotiated contracts).
16/09/2009, 1:47 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

I mentioned abandoning the policy of attracting potential fans, and I do think it's a mistake. I don't claim to be impartial on this because I think that it's a bad decision

OK, we'll agree to differ. Most NI fans- and, I think, most outside observers- simply wouldn't agree with you that redeveloping the ground with a much greater capacity abandons potential fans. At first sight, the exact opposite looks true. Now obviously I'm not ignoring the specific politics of Northern Ireland and Windsor Park as a symbol of them, but I'm suggesting that on the basic issue of where to stage football matches we try to move on from them. I'm confident that crowds will increase at NI games as a direct result of the redevelopment, although I accept that a few people will still refuse to come to Windsor. I'm also open-minded about the possibility of others again coming (either for the first time or after a gap of many years) if there was to be a new stadium elsewhere. As I mentioned above, I welcomed the plans for Ormeau Park, Blanchflower Park etc. and I'd have no problem in principle if a new build had been agreed at the other end of Boucher Road.

Quote:

The disentangling of the cosy relationship between the IFA and Linfield is necessary though and this statement of intent from the IFA does nothing to assure me that things are changing in that respect (like you I'll have to wait and see what this will mean in terms of renegotiated contracts)

OK, I hope your cynicism will prove to be misplaced.
16/09/2009, 3:47 PM
backstothewall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

I've answered your objections on grounds of security and transport above. If there's land available on the Boucher Road (a few minutes walk from Windsor) it could be used for car parking.

It could be, but the issues of an alternative venue while work is done to Windsor, security, and politics remain,

Quote:

Ravenhill is smaller, with fewer facilities and arguably even more outdated than Windsor, so no thanks.

I was suggesting Ravenhill only in the event of Windsor becoming unuseable. Not so unrealistic if another bit blows off this winter. And tell me, if Windsor is tarted up, where will NI go while the work is done if not Ravenhill?

Quote:

Happy to be corrected on the notional possibility of Ulster rugby playing at Windsor (as I repeated above I'm not a fan). Even more fantastic than Euro 2020 being held in Aughnacloy, then? ;)

What I was talking about in Aughnacloy is a facility for minority sports like Swimming, Amatuer boxing, cycling, watersports etc along the lines of the Australian Institute of Sport. I was not suggesting a spectator facility. Rather a training facility for elite athletes. We could go for the Euro's with a lot of investment, but obviously your right, it would have to be based in Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Derry & Waterford.

Quote:

Just out of interest, where would they play home games if Ravenhill was unavailable?

They closed the terrace and reduced capacity for most of last season to construct a new stand.

Quote:

I suspect there are more unionist votes to be won by securing a stadium for NI football, than lost through agreeing a museum of paramilitarism at Long Kesh.

Maybe, maybe not. I think there would be more votes to be won in building something for Man United than for NI, unfortunately.
16/09/2009, 4:26 PM
gspain

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkrocket

I can't see what you are saying here. There have been many points made above about the unfitness for purpose of WP, history isn't really a factor unless you are talking about the historical injustices of the advantages that Linfield glean from the arrangements hitherto. What have some new flats got to do with anything? If anything they just lead to a greater parking problem and complaints from residents than before. Do you think that the area has been gentrified by these new flats? If you really think that is true or indeed relevant to the football ground then I suggest you take a closer look at conditions in The Village, the area that WP is located, it has some of the worst housing conditions and social deprivation stats in western europe.

On what do you base this statement? The contributors on here seem to me to be quite well versed in the issues with WP. In any case you wouldnt need to visit the place every week to keep up to date with recent developments -the place hasn't changed in years.

My6 understanding is that a lot of people won't go to Windsor because of its location in a loyalist area. I've been going for well over 20+ years and have been to more game sthere than I can count. 15-20 years ago it was a case of keeping your mouth shut until you crossed the footbridge (with my southern accent anyway). There was plenty of loyalist bunting and it seemed to me very few parked cars. Now it appears to be regenerated with new flats and loads of cars parked there last Wednesday night. I had my young daughters there last year and we walked over the footbridge to/from the Lisburn Road. There are other areas of west and east Belfast (and Dublin) I wouldn't dream of walking through with them.

The ground needs work but it could be done piecemeal.

There is still a cracking atmosphere there.

Glentoran and other clubs do have a point re the money going to Linfield.
16/09/2009, 6:29 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back to Walsall

It could be, but the issues of an alternative venue while work is done to Windsor, security, and politics remain

There are only three stands used at present. The South stand wouldn't be demolished until a new east/ railway stand is built. So an alternative venue wouldn't be needed.

As above, I think you overstate the security and access problems.

If by the politics you mean horse trading at Stormont as discussed above, I'd take my chances on that being resolved. I doubt that stopping a Windsor redevelopment is a priority for Sinn Fein or any other local party.

However, if you mean Windsor will simply never attract a proportion of the population, I accept that with some regret. There's probably little point in a roundabout argument about it.

Quote:

I was suggesting Ravenhill only in the event of Windsor becoming unuseable. Not so unrealistic if another bit blows off this winter. And tell me, if Windsor is tarted up, where will NI go while the work is done if not Ravenhill?

If Windsor becomes unusable this winter (not that I want to encourage your wishful thinking), we would probably arrange any 2010 friendlies away from home, possibly the first couple of qualifiers as well. Any home games might be restricted to B fixtures at Glenavon, Portadown or Ballymena. Unlike the IRFU (as you claimed above), I've no bias nor objection in principle to hiring another sport's ground. It's just that Ravenhill (AFAIK) doesn't have significantly more seats than the IL grounds and would probably not be feasible for cost reasons. See previous answer on any closure during building works.

Quote:

I was not suggesting a spectator facility. Rather a training facility for elite athletes

I wasn't being entirely serious (in the spirit of yours and other earlier contributions to the thread) about Aughnacloy's super stadium.

Quote:

We could go for the Euro's with a lot of investment, but obviously your right, it would have to be based in Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Derry & Waterford

No, I'm wrong. Dublin has a UEFA cup final scheduled, NI staged Euro U-19, the Republic could easily manage the U-21 or women's European championships. But the senior Euros are about as likely to go to Serravalle, Andorra la Vella or Puffin Island in the Faeroes...

Quote:

I think there would be more votes to be won in building something for Man United than for NI, unfortunately

No problem, we'll persaude Ferguson to send the Evans brothers over with a reserve side. Keep the ManU fans happy AND re-launch Windsor in one fell swoop. Simples.
16/09/2009, 10:47 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Any chance of changing that broken record and going round elsewhere.....
17/09/2009, 8:17 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by gspain

Probably when a local camoige club used it a couple of years back.

This was on the local UTV news last night.

http://www.u.tv/UTVMediaPlayer/Defau...x?vidid=125565

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