St. George's Flags at LOI Grounds

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Originally Posted by MeathDrog

I'm fairly sure you're wrong.

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No im not :D

I doubt it that you will find anything in any irish history books that says people died just because they didnt like a flag. There was more important reasons to why people fought and died.

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Originally Posted by Straightstory

200,000 Irishmen fought under the Unon Jack in the First World War (as opposed to less than three thousand who fought under the tricolour in the 1916 rebellion). They obviously didn’t find it offensive. Daniel O’Connell, along with Parnell, the great nationalist leader of 19th century Ireland, had no objection to the Union Jack. (Many of his political meetings ended with a toast to the Queen). Certainly, militant republicans in the 19th century and early 20th century Ireland would have objected to the Union Jack, but they would have not have been anything like a majority of the population. The mood of the country (according to historian Tom Garvin) was that a quarter of the country was actively nationalist, a quarter actively unionist, and the remaining half mildly nationalist - eg. Home Rulers. The popular demonisation of the Union Jack is largely a post-independence invention of Irish nationalists.
I suggest you read Garvin’s ‘Nationalist Revolutionaries in Ireland’, or indeed any of his other books on Irish nationalism. Or indeed any books on Irish history, as you clearly buy into the old myths and prejudices.

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this thread is getting out of hand.

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Originally Posted by roinuj

this thread is getting out of hand.

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Indeed. Where are the mods in this place. Lads, can I ask ye all to stay on topic just for the sake of the thread please.

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Originally Posted by The Lep

No im not :D

I doubt it that you will find anything in any irish history books that says people died just because they didnt like a flag. There was more important reasons to why people fought and died.

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Oh never mind. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by boovidge

You have to live in England to realise how little the English know/care about their history with Ireland.

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Yeah thats def true, in fact they haven't a clue about their own country too

I dont care about flags, in fact I am half wondering if i even would stand for my own national anthem and flag these days as Im so embarrassed to be Irish (re politics, etc and just come back from a trip from Prague!)

I remember years ago Newcastle played in a 4 team tournament with derry city, psv and celtic, and there was a big union jack. A Celtic fan jumped the barriers at one stand, ran onto the pitch up to the flag overflowing from the stand with the Newcastle fans and ripped it off. I was amazed that the Newcastle fans didnt go mad (i would have!).
Jesus its their flag so why shouldn't they be allowed to display it!

also remember a union jack burnt in a dublin gah game for no obvious reason.

and remember I heard that a young fella got a horrid beating at a wolfe tones "concert" for waving a union jack - he thought it would be fun - so one needs to be well aware of the consequences of things like this. We are living in Ireland after all:eek:

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

and remember I heard that a young fella got a horrid beating at a wolfe tones "concert" for waving a union jack - he thought it would be fun - so one needs to be well aware of the consequences of things like this. We are living in Ireland after all:eek:

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He deserves a beating for just being there in the first place:o

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Yeah thats def true, in fact they haven't a clue about their own country too

I dont care about flags, in fact I am half wondering if i even would stand for my own national anthem and flag these days as Im so embarrassed to be Irish (re politics, etc and just come back from a trip from Prague!)

I remember years ago Newcastle played in a 4 team tournament with derry city, psv and celtic, and there was a big union jack. A Celtic fan jumped the barriers at one stand, ran onto the pitch up to the flag overflowing from the stand with the Newcastle fans and ripped it off. I was amazed that the Newcastle fans didnt go mad (i would have!).
Jesus its their flag so why shouldn't they be allowed to display it!

also remember a union jack burnt in a dublin gah game for no obvious reason.

and remember I heard that a young fella got a horrid beating at a wolfe tones "concert" for waving a union jack - he thought it would be fun - so one needs to be well aware of the consequences of things like this. We are living in Ireland after all:eek:

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I think your getting that confused with the guy who waved the flag of Ulster ( the real yellow one not the silly makey up white one ? who got the b@llocks knock off em buy a group of dickdheads who hadnt a clue what it was :D

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Originally Posted by Straightstory

200,000 Irishmen fought under the Unon Jack in the First World War (as opposed to less than three thousand who fought under the tricolour in the 1916 rebellion).

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That is the most unbelievable misrepresentation f history that I've seen. Question the motives of the men who went to war. They were promised Home Rule for all of Ireland if they fought. Good old Redmond. When a gain that great is promised, who wouldn't fight under a foreign banner? This thread is pointless and I've tried not to get involved, but that is simply daft.

As for Parnell and his toasts to the Queen - (as you have acknowledged) mainstream Irish nationalism was not associated with a complete withdrawal from the Union and the British Commonwealth/Empire until relatively recently. So it's another red herring you've thrown into the mix.

Anyway, by the end of the first world war, time had moved on significantly. And has done again between then and now. I wouldn't have a tricolour or a Union Jack anywhere near the Brandywell, simply because people will find an excuse to start a row over it. The majority of people in Derry believe that we are still "unfree" (note the inverted commas), so the Union Flag is generally considered to be a symbol of repression. I couldn't give a flying **** about what is displayed where, but many many people do, and in Derry (and the North as a whole) the majority care a whole lot.

Not surprised at the reaction in Croke Park but personally these things don't bother me, as long as it's not a ludicrously obvious wind up attempt.

Back on topic, I wouldn`t have a problem, no big deal to me if a fan from an English team came to oriel pk and flew their st georges flag with their team on it.

Its been an annoying sight for me for years, the sight of these 'fans' from Ireland drapped in their tricolours at games in the UK like giving the impression 'hey look at me, i`ve spent 9.99 on a flight and I`m at a game in the UK'

I think its an excellent point made by the Sunderland fans.

Just another example of double standards in certain Irish football fans, love english football but hate their national team.

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Originally Posted by Straightstory

200,000 Irishmen fought under the Unon Jack in the First World War (as opposed to less than three thousand who fought under the tricolour in the 1916 rebellion). They obviously didn’t find it offensive. Daniel O’Connell, along with Parnell, the great nationalist leader of 19th century Ireland, had no objection to the Union Jack. (Many of his political meetings ended with a toast to the Queen). Certainly, militant republicans in the 19th century and early 20th century Ireland would have objected to the Union Jack, but they would have not have been anything like a majority of the population. The mood of the country (according to historian Tom Garvin) was that a quarter of the country was actively nationalist, a quarter actively unionist, and the remaining half mildly nationalist - eg. Home Rulers. The popular demonisation of the Union Jack is largely a post-independence invention of Irish nationalists.
I suggest you read Garvin’s ‘Nationalist Revolutionaries in Ireland’, or indeed any of his other books on Irish nationalism. Or indeed any books on Irish history, as you clearly buy into the old myths and prejudices.

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Wow that is one of the most staggering pieces of revisionist muck ive ever read.
That would make Carson himself moist.
Firstly using the fact that 200,000 Irish men fought in the British Army in WW1 to back up that fairytale of yours is completely divorced from the context of the situation.
The context being that many joined out of a sense of patriotism exploited by Redmond and his ilke who were utterly reprehensible.
Not to mention the desperate financial situation of the majority of these men and how Ireland being systematically plundered for centuries had merely relegated the manhood of the country to a life of servitude in her majestys forces.
I love how you invoke the likes of O'Connell to back up that bullcrap, so I suggest you read up on Labour in Irish History before you start championing him to support your revisionist agenda.

Generally speaking symbols are irrelevant, but to some they matter alot.
I think any Englishman that wants to unveil his St Georges cross, he is more than welcome to as its his national flag but to me the Union Jack is a symbol of imperialism and colonialism.
Do I think it should be forcibly removed from the ground? No.
Would I rather if a symbol of imperialism wasnt waved in front of me? Yes.

I dont really care what flag they bring into grounds over here as long as there paying money to watch football in Ireland they should be allowed to bring whatever they like