Kiely walks out? strong rumour

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01/06/2009, 1:51 PM
Jicked

Yes there are a lot of assumptions made but there's not a lot of avoiding that. Fact is Given, a very nice man I agree, has under numerous different managers always been included in friendly games we all know we don't need to see him in. The fact this has happened under numerous managers, all of whom you'd imagine would have liked to be able develop a subsitute keeper a bit more, for me adds weight to the rumours circulating from ex-players and in the media (just today the Irish Times reported that Kiely supposedly fell out with Given over Given denying chances to other keepers).

Shay needs to be told that from now on the squad strength in depth, and squad harmony is crucial, and will be helped hugely by him sitting out games such as Nigeria so we can develop some sort of experienced #2 keeper, which is vital considering Shay is now 33 and has had his share of injury trouble recently.
01/06/2009, 1:57 PM
DmanDmythDledge

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishfan86

No way can you say it was the 100% correct decision given that Westwood isn't even available for Sofia!

This makes Trap's decision all the more mind boggling.

As I've said he needs to get a look at the fringe players when he gets the chance. When the next friendly comes around Westwood could be unavailable. I stand by my opinion that Trap needed to see how Westwood will do playing for Ireland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

I think you're jumping the gun there EG.

Shay was an injury doubt prior to the game. The squad obviously knew Westwood would miss the Bulgaria game. Somebody put 2 and 2 together and whispered in Kiely's ear that he would be getting his game.

Are you not jumping the gun by saying somebody whispered in Kiely's ear? All we know is that Kiely and Trap had a discussion, which resulted in Kiely leaving the squad and Trap suggesting that he will need somebody else for the Bulgaria game. Nobody here knows if anything at all was said to Kiely in the lead up to this, or what was said in this discussion.
01/06/2009, 2:03 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jicked

Very unprofessional of Kiely to walk out in the middle of the double-header, but for me the blame lies with Shay Given. The man is clearly obsessed with winning as many caps as he possibly can, which would be great, if he could do it without jeopardising the overall well-being of the squad.

Personally, I've always admired players who want to play in every international possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jicked

Roy Keane alluded to the fact Given put pressure on the management and FAI to be included in every game he travels for, and this has led to the farcical situation whereby we haven't had any sort of an experienced goalkeeper for years now. It cost us in the last campaign when we suddenly had to chuck in Wayne Henderson (who?) and may cost us again this time.

Assuming Keane's account is reliable, then if Given's stance has caused problems for the team, then that is the fault of the management, in giving in to player power.
In fact if you think about it, Given's insistence on being 1st choice is little different from Kiely's (apparent) insistence on being 2nd choice, except that Given's case is unarguable, whereas Kiely's is much less so (age, inactivity, alternatives).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jicked

Demanding to be included (we can only presume it was at his insistence that he played) in a friendly, a week before a vital qualifier when he has a knock, is very experienced at international level and with this team, and when Kiely needed game time after not playing a huge amount as well as needing to get back in the groove of playing with Ireland is a ludicrous decision.

Thin end of the wedge.
Football is littered with players whose "demands" have been acceded to on the grounds of "desperation" etc. Invariably, however, those same players have repaid such consideration with selfishness and contempt. We had one up in NI with Roy Carroll, and (I suspect) your equivalent was Stephen Ireland.
OK, Kiely may not be anywhere near those two but if nothing else, when Kiely is seen to get away with it, it risks lesser players concluding that they can start making demands, too.
You reap what you sow...
01/06/2009, 2:15 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jicked

Fact is Given, a very nice man I agree, has under numerous different managers always been included in friendly games we all know we don't need to see him in. The fact this has happened under numerous managers, all of whom you'd imagine would have liked to be able develop a subsitute keeper a bit more, for me adds weight to the rumours circulating from ex-players and in the media (just today the Irish Times reported that Kiely supposedly fell out with Given over Given denying chances to other keepers).

Shay needs to be told that from now on the squad strength in depth, and squad harmony is crucial, and will be helped hugely by him sitting out games such as Nigeria so we can develop some sort of experienced #2 keeper, which is vital considering Shay is now 33 and has had his share of injury trouble recently.

If Kiely has fallen out with Given, then that is something for Trap to sort out. Now I personally doubt that Trap is so weak as to be unable or unwilling to put Given right on this score (always playing etc).
That said, I'll admit that should it be the case, Kiely would be entitled to withdraw his services - but still only after the game, not a day or two before it.

Unprofessional.
01/06/2009, 2:24 PM
paul_oshea

What will be interesting to see, is, if westwood as given has predicted, is taking his place in 2 years time will given happily revert to being no.2? And more importantly will he stay around.

I think given and dunne being a solid spine for the 3 new backs on show in fulham made perfect sense, those first 45 minutes would need a re-assuring voice behind you to start you off in your trek into international football. I still would have liked to see kiely get a half though. Whats 2 months to wait to try out westwood?
01/06/2009, 2:33 PM
NeilMcD

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2007/0327/ireland1.html

Just for the record Keanes views. They are not fact just his views.
01/06/2009, 3:23 PM
Jicked

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Personally, I've always admired players who want to play in every international possible.

As do I, much like it's admirable to see the player who was picked up a serious knock struggle on valiantly and not want to be subsituted in the hope he can do something for the team. But in certain occasions you need to take that player off, and in our current situation, without a second choice goalkeeper who has played more than a handful of games, we need to say 'thanks but no thanks Shay', bench him for a meaningless game, especially when he has a knock.

And yes, I know they are just Roy Keane's views. But there's other evidence to suggest there may be something else to it (what possibly explanation for playing Given on Friday when he has a knock that could flare up, and hasn't trained fully before the game?), meanwhile today's Times reports Kiely has similar problems with Givens as Roy Keane did. Of course it's not fact or an open and shut case, but it'd be just as silly to dismiss it as completely false.
01/06/2009, 4:13 PM
NeilMcD

There is no evidence that Kiely has a problem with Given. There are not quotes from him on this issue. Its just journalistic speculation in relation to this.
01/06/2009, 4:41 PM
Jicked

its a bit naive to think that since there are no quotes from Kiely that there's no substance to it, especially when the Times are usually very reliable on what goes on inside the Irish camp and often break the big stories. It would be highly unusual for Kiely to go on the record about anything like that even if that is exactly what he thought.
01/06/2009, 6:09 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jicked

But there's other evidence to suggest there may be something else to it (what possibly explanation for playing Given on Friday when he has a knock that could flare up, and hasn't trained fully before the game?), meanwhile today's Times reports Kiely has similar problems with Givens as Roy Keane did. Of course it's not fact or an open and shut case, but it'd be just as silly to dismiss it as completely false.

You are writing nonsense Jicked.
Trap is the manager not Given.
Trap's decision to play Given who said he needed a game to test his sharpness before the big game. Given is the consummate top class pro and I would not presume to know what he needs to do in order to prepare himself for this upcoming game.

Trap decided to cap Westwood and not give Kiely a deserved 45mins
Much and all as I really sympathesise with Kiely, Trap has his reasons.
So far, Trap's reasons, even the ones that appeared bizarre, have all turned out to be quite rational.
01/06/2009, 6:13 PM
Stuttgart88

Colin Doyle & Wayne Henderson both called up.

How many first team games has each played this season? Has Henderson played at all? I think Doyle only played when Taylor was suspended, or in Carling Cup.

Industrial sized portions of cotton wool to be sent to Shay's minders in the Irish camp asap.
01/06/2009, 6:21 PM
Jicked

Doyle has such a fantastic build for a keeper its such a pity he's, well, a bit crap by all accounts.
Wayne Henderson didn't impress me a single bit when he came in last year and as far as I know spent this year on loan at Grimsby Town. I'm not one for thinking every player in the League of Ireland can suddenly slot in to the team and do a job for us, but in this situation I'd have taken either of the Murphys (despite Brian's poor form) over Henderson, and maybe Doyle as well.
01/06/2009, 6:28 PM
Jicked

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

How many first team games has each played this season? Has Henderson played at all?
.

According to Wiki he has 14 appearances on loan at Grimsby Town. In League Two. Where they finished 22nd. Paddy Kenny and a few League of Ireland players have a right to feel aggrieved at the decision. Lets just hope he doesn't have to be called upon.
01/06/2009, 7:36 PM
geysir

Does Paddy Kenny even want to play for Ireland?

People make such a big hulaballoo about weddings, especially some footballers. I can understand that he has been led by the nose on this one. If only the poor f�cker knew what it was going to be like in 15 years, he would be on the plane to Bulgaria praying for Shay to break a leg.
01/06/2009, 9:05 PM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

How many first team games has each played this season? Has Henderson played at all? I think Doyle only played when Taylor was suspended, or in Carling Cup.

Colin Doyle: http://www.chatsoccer.net/irishabroa...6&seasonID=138
just 3 starts, and one introduction
I posted in the end of season stats that he remained on the bench more than any other player this season, 40 times!

Wayne Henderson: http://www.chatsoccer.net/irishabroa...playerID=27006
14 starts, all on loan at Grimsby from Preston
5 wins, 3 draws and losses
01/06/2009, 9:07 PM
dr_peepee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jicked

Doyle has such a fantastic build for a keeper its such a pity he's, well, a bit crap by all accounts. .

Wasn't Doyle Birminghams first choice over Taylor last time they got promoted and started as first choice that season in the Premiership??? Think he just lost his head a bit and Taylor got in and has retained it since. He's still young and Taylors getting on so Birmingham for the next year or two might be the best place for him..
01/06/2009, 10:00 PM
gwhite

[QUOTE=geysir;1170499]Does Paddy Kenny even want to play for Ireland?

I believe he does. He quit the squad for a time after 5-2 in Cyprus because his marriage was failing and didn't someone try to bite his face off in a chip shop or something? Anyway, I'm pretty sure he declared himself available for selection again while Stan was still in charge.
02/06/2009, 1:08 AM
tetsujin1979

I had a look in the Irish Abroad database and whipped up this table to show the goalkeepers in England and Scotland performed this season.
It's a list of their starts, how many goals they conceded, ordered by how many they conceded per game
Turns out Henderson and Doyle weren't bad choices, statistically speaking

Code:

Home Away Total Conceded Player Name Starts Conceded Starts Conceded Starts Conceded Per Game Colin Doyle 0 0 3 2 3 2 0.67 Wayne Henderson 7 3 7 10 14 13 0.93 Paddy Kenny 24 22 25 25 49 47 0.96 Dean Brill 13 16 12 10 25 26 1.04 David Forde 29 28 27 37 56 65 1.16 Kieran Westwood 25 28 24 32 49 60 1.22 Joe Murphy 24 22 28 44 52 66 1.27 Barry Roche 25 28 27 39 52 67 1.29 Darren Randolph 6 4 10 17 16 21 1.31 Robert Elliot 14 19 12 18 26 37 1.42 Shay Given 23 30 24 39 47 69 1.47 Dean Kiely 2 3 2 3 4 6 1.5 Graham Stack 3 5 3 4 6 9 1.5 Shane Supple 3 5 3 4 6 9 1.5 Conrad Logan 17 27 19 32 36 59 1.64 Rene Gilmartin 6 10 5 10 11 20 1.82

Note, these results don't contain the season stats for Andy McNulty (Inverness Caley Thistle, on loan at Elgin) because I don't record Scottish Third Division games
02/06/2009, 1:18 AM
SwanVsDalton

I would've thought Joe Murphy was a more obvious choice than either of those two. Not his biggest fan but there's something to be said for playing week in, week out for a successful side (not to mention being voted League One Goalie of the year).
02/06/2009, 4:59 AM
Razors left peg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Colin Doyle & Wayne Henderson both called up.

How many first team games has each played this season? Has Henderson played at all? I think Doyle only played when Taylor was suspended, or in Carling Cup.

Industrial sized portions of cotton wool to be sent to Shay's minders in the Irish camp asap.

Is Westwood out injured now???

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