Soccer International vs Rugby International

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Variously: NI does have a national anthem; the IRFU could have played it; more generally, the IRFU could recognise the reality that its team represents two separate countries, and play neither of their anthems. If you don't like Ireland's call, ask Coulter to write something else.



GSTQ isn't recognised by the World as a purely English anthem. What does it matter what Scotland and Wales think? Northern Ireland and England disagree with them. As a basic courtesy other countries play the latter's anthem. Obviously you don't like it, but essentially GSTQ has mirror images in both the Soldier's song and Flower of Scotland- all three are about fighting one of the others.

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Northern Ireland has no national anthem (and no flag). The UK has GSTQ, Scotland has FOS, Wales has LOOF, and there is broad consensus in England that GSTQ is the English Anthem.

The situation with Northern Ireland is that no song has ever been given any official status, and there is no common consensus over what one should be. That has lead to the confusion of the IFA playing the UK anthem, while Danny Boy is played at the commonwealth games.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Whether the game is to be shown around the World is irrelevant.

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It is true that unionists have never really cared what the rest of the world thought that much. In my opinion it is very relevent that the game was being shown across the world. The IRFU (and the Ulster branch in particular) obviously wanted to show Belfast in a positive light rather than as still obsessed with secterian point scorring

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Which emphasises my point that it looks ever more like a team representing RoI only.

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Just because the team plays in Dublin does not mean the north is not represented. Ulster play their games in Belfast but Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal are certainly represented (the kids game at half time yesterday was Holywood v Cavan actually, and Tommy Bowe is still a very popular guy around Ravenhill).

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Originally Posted by Gather round

If all the games are going to be in Dublin, why mention it?

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Because there are 3 reason Ireland won't be back to Belfast for a while

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I think it's more likely the stirrers referring to occupied six counties who've left the bad taste, don't you?

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Get a life

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Ulster rugby fans, if seeing themselves as losers in the way you suggest, can lobby to change the game's organisation. My suggestion is only one possibility.

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Why would we? It pointless lobbying for change while we still have the same idiots at home. The train to Dublin is under £20 and in 90 minutes your free of the knuckle-draggers

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I explained above why Ireland RFU is widely seen as a RoI only team.

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You explained that you think there is it is an ROI team because that where they play their games. The facts are your in a minority, even among your own community. which is why when you walk round the centre of Belfast at the minute you will see bar after bar with "6 nations shown here" in the window. Its a paycheck for every bar in the city without the hassle that comes with football.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

You clearly think that unhappiness with an all-Ireland team is unreasonable in itself; I disagree.

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If your unhappy with the very existance of an all-island international side your never going to be happy. Good luck with that, but I'm not particularly unhappy you feel that way as Rugby is better off without people trying to find reason to be offended in everything. In the end though its cutting off your nose to spite your face. If the Ireland v Italy game at Ravenhill had been a success chances are Ireland would have been back for the occasional game, which would have been a great arguement in favour of a new stadium in Belfast/Maze.

But the O6C obviously aren't ready for live and let live. Remember that when FIFA or the Health and Safety Executive finally declare Windsor unsafe and your travelling to Scotland.

p.s. If that happens does that mean you will think of Northern Ireland as a Scottish team?

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

May I ask (as you seem to be knowledgeable on the subject) how exactly the process of creating Irelands call came to be, was it NI political forces, players, or the IRFU themselves hat came up with the idea. Reason I ask is it seems that the national Anthem was fine for decades and i'm wondering what group or individuals objected to this? Open to correction but if memory serves Willie John Mc Bride always thought it was stirring to hear our Anthem before a game.

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The song was commissioned by the IRFU, but I don't know the ins and outs of the decision to do it. Personally i think its a rubbish song, but I'm all in favour of it as an anthem as the people i would go to rugby with, who are all unionists apart from me, all really like. it has really given them something to belt out before a game and anything that can bring the country together like it has to be a good thing.

The IRFU should design a new flag as well in my opinion to end the absurd situation of the Ulster flag flying beside the Tri-Colour. I know some people will see the idea of getting rid of the tri-colour as treason, but imho if a flag fails to unite everyone it is failing to do what flags are designed to do.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

Northern Ireland has no national anthem (and no flag). The UK has GSTQ, Scotland has FOS, Wales has LOOF, and there is broad consensus in England that GSTQ is the English Anthem

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Northern Ireland has a national anthem, however much you dislike it. There is no broad consensus, you've just invented it. As you may know, both England and Northern Ireland have used other anthems in sports and competitions where they compete separately (eg Danny Boy, Land of hope and glory), but so what- the point is not that you can't change them, but that having NO home national anthem at a particular fixture has irritated much of the support, as I said.

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It is true that unionists have never really cared what the rest of the world thought that much

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On the contrary, I'm always interested in what the RotW thinks. I recognise that you don't speak for it, mind.

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In my opinion it is very relevent that the game was being shown across the world. The IRFU (and the Ulster branch in particular) obviously wanted to show Belfast in a positive light rather than as still obsessed with secterian point scorring

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I disagree, because it's basically irrelevant to the point (that rugby's administration has irritated much of its support in Northern Ireland, to the extent that two separate international teams representing Ireland is a live issue again. Whatever positive publicity gained from the minuscule foreign audience for a friendly against Italy. The only sectarian point scoring here is coming from you.

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Just because the team plays in Dublin does not mean the north is not represented

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I've explained why people feel it isn't represented and what you could do to reassure them.

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Get a life

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Get an argument, get out of denial?

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You explained that you think there is it is an ROI team because that where they play their games

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Er, no. I explained that, apart from playing 99%+ of the games in Dublin, they treated the only Belfast fixture in 50 years as an away match

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The facts are your in a minority, even among your own community

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I acknowledge it's a minority, although much increased since the Italy game.

Thanks for that. I agree it is a rubbish song, its a pity that Unionist supporters of Ireland were not consulted as i'm sure they could have come up with something much better. I must disagree you however on the flag issue, I see nothing absurd about both flags flying, imho inventing a flag would certainly be absurd.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

The song was commissioned by the IRFU, but I don't know the ins and outs of the decision to do it. Personally i think its a rubbish song, but I'm all in favour of it as an anthem as the people i would go to rugby with, who are all unionists apart from me, all really like. it has really given them something to belt out before a game and anything that can bring the country together like it has to be a good thing.

The IRFU should design a new flag as well in my opinion to end the absurd situation of the Ulster flag flying beside the Tri-Colour. I know some people will see the idea of getting rid of the tri-colour as treason, but imho if a flag fails to unite everyone it is failing to do what flags are designed to do.

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Originally Posted by Back to Walsall

If your unhappy with the very existance of an all-island international side your never going to be happy

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No, as I explained there are two circumstances in which I'd be happier. Either the IRFU makes some small compromise to make the Ireland side more inclusive, or there is a separate Northern Ireland side.

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Good luck with that, but I'm not particularly unhappy you feel that way

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Thanks. No reason for you to be unhappy; let's have a reasonable compromise and everyone can be happier?

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as Rugby is better off without people trying to find reason to be offended in everything

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I'm not trying to be offended by everything. I've suggested small, easy compromise to solve two specific problems.

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If the Ireland v Italy game at Ravenhill had been a success chances are Ireland would have been back for the occasional game, which would have been a great arguement in favour of a new stadium in Belfast/Maze

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You're suggesting they wouldn't have agreed the same contract to play all the games in Dublin?

Rugby union attendances in Belfast are healthy enough to justify more than one international match in 50 years. They clearly aren't of a scale demanding a 40,000 white elephant in the middle of nowhere, or more than a refurb for Ravenhill. Anyway, this is a roundabout argument, since it would have been more of a success had it not, er, annoyed much of the local support.

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Remember that when FIFA or the Health and Safety Executive finally declare Windsor unsafe and your travelling to Scotland

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Ha ha. You're a bit behind the times. Windsor is planning a new grandstand and other widespread refurb work, to be completed this year for ca £7 million. A fraction of the Maze plans.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

So are you saying that people who object to "irelands call" have less regard for what happens in the game

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I care more about what happens in the game, i'm not bothered what u care more about. Sorry if I implied that u don't care enough about what happens after kick off, or indeed care too much about the value of Irelands Call.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

that the issue of anthems is totally irrelevant in your opinion ?

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I'm saying that in this unusual situation where 2 nations have combined to form one, the issue of the national anthem isn't a big deal to me. I can understand that a compromise was necessary.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

I care more about what happens in the game, i'm not bothered what u care more about. Sorry if I implied that u don't care enough about what happens after kick off, or indeed care too much about the value of Irelands Call.

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Fair enough but please recognise that Irelands call is a big issue for a lot of people, for differing reasons albeit.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

I'm saying that in this unusual situation where 2 nations have combined to form one, the issue of the national anthem isn't a big deal to me. I can understand that a compromise was necessary.

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I'm wondering though how this situation came about i.e. who was driving the issue. Would unionist supporters regard the six counties as a nation?

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

Get a life

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Can we try keep nonsense such as this out of what's a fairly reasonable debate?

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Fair enough but please recognise that Irelands call is a big issue for a lot of people, for differing reasons albeit.

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Noted

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

I'm wondering though how this situation came about i.e. who was driving the issue. Would unionist supporters regard the six counties as a nation?

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Well they consider it seperate from the Republic anyway so I would have thought that anything other than Amhrán na bhFiann would have been an improvement from their point of view.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Noted

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Thanks

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Well they consider it seperate from the Republic anyway so I would have thought that anything other than Amhrán na bhFiann would have been an improvement from their point of view.

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Thats understandable from their point of view. I'm still trying to understand though why it became an issue at that point in time, unionists have been playing rugby for decades and I do not recall any objections being mentioned, was/is it really that big an issue for Unionists?

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Thats understandable from their point of view. I'm still trying to understand though why it became an issue at that point in time, unionists have been playing rugby for decades and I do not recall any objections being mentioned, was/is it really that big an issue for Unionists?

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No idea, I'd say twas part of the Good Friday Agreement only for it being recorded 3 yrs earlier!!:D

Maybe it was a gesture from the IRFU towards it's unionist members or something, I haven't a clue really so I should just quit while I'm laggin just a small bit off da pace!!!

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Thanks


Thats understandable from their point of view. I'm still trying to understand though why it became an issue at that point in time, unionists have been playing rugby for decades and I do not recall any objections being mentioned, was/is it really that big an issue for Unionists?

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The deal was

A na bhF in Dublin
GSTQ in Belfast (last game until recently was in 1954)

for home games. Nothing away.

Then the rugby WC came along and we had to use the Rose of Tralee in 1987. Hence the need for Ireland's Call.

Now it became an issue when GSTQ was not played in Belfast for Italy 2007.

Why was a deal necessary and what parties was it made with ? Who in Gods name chose to use the "Rose of Tralee" and how would that justify a need for Irelands call? I'm sure our unionist supporters could come uo with a better song to represent the six counties which could be played instead of the Coulter abomination.

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Originally Posted by gspain

The deal was
A na bhF in Dublin
GSTQ in Belfast (last game until recently was in 1954)
for home games. Nothing away.
Then the rugby WC came along and we had to use the Rose of Tralee in 1987. Hence the need for Ireland's Call.
Now it became an issue when GSTQ was not played in Belfast for Italy 2007.

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What was the Ulster & Ireland flanker of the 1980s? Nigel, can't remember his surname.

I remember him being interviewed and he said there was one time on TV he was chewing gum during the anthem with the cameras on him & he said he hoped people didn't think he was singing along.

In that context it's clear that some sort of concession to Ulster unionists was probably necessary, or at best an inclusive gesture. That's why I've no big deal with it. As I say, it ain't perfect but it is what it is. Having an all-island team in no way dilutes my support for it.

I'd personally prefer not to see an all-island football team as I just can't see the harmonious atmosphere & cameraderie we have on away trips continuing. Jaysus, the Keane / McCarthy civil war was divisive enough without proper history having to be dealt with! I'm sure many from both sides of the border would try and get along but for others it may be too big an ask. I suspect the middle classes in NI were less hung up on political divides during the Troubles, hence the lack of fuss over a united rugby team, but for the working classes / typical football attending classes it was and probably is more of an issue.

Just my opinion, would be interested what Gather Round and others think.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

What was the Ulster & Ireland flanker of the 1980s? Nigel, can't remember his surname.

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nigel carr is his name. rugby career cut short by an IRA bomb on the way to a training session in Dublin

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Why was a deal necessary and what parties was it made with ? Who in Gods name chose to use the "Rose of Tralee" and how would that justify a need for Irelands call? I'm sure our unionist supporters could come uo with a better song to represent the six counties which could be played instead of the Coulter abomination.

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This had been the way right back until the Irish Free state gained independence. The French game sin the 20's and the Welsh games in the 30's were plated at Ravenhill. Then some postwar games up until 1954 were played there and the anthem used for Ireland was GSTK and then GSTQ. In 1954 some players remained in the dressingroom until after the anthems.

The IRFU chose the Rose of tralee. I don't know whose idea it was.

Ireland's Call is used to represent the whole island. It is the only anthem played for away games.

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Originally Posted by gspain

The IRFU chose the Rose of tralee. I don't know whose idea it was.

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i think its all the organisers could get their hands on after an objection by some ulster players at short notice. around the time of the last RWC there was an article about it. think i still have at home somewhere. if you think the fai in WC02 were badly organised you should read some of the stuff that went on at the 87 RWC!

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Originally Posted by gspain

Ireland's Call is used to represent the whole island.

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Sure as hell does not represent me :)

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Originally Posted by Gather round

No, as I explained there are two circumstances in which I'd be happier. Either the IRFU makes some small compromise to make the Ireland side more inclusive, or there is a separate Northern Ireland side.

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We select Rory Best. What more can you want :D

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

In that context it's clear that some sort of concession to Ulster unionists was probably necessary, or at best an inclusive gesture. That's why I've no big deal with it. As I say, it ain't perfect but it is what it is. Having an all-island team in no way dilutes my support for it

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Fair enough. I'm not wholly opposed to all-Ireland teams per se; I watch a lot of cricket, where it works.

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I'd personally prefer not to see an all-island football team as I just can't see the harmonious atmosphere & cameraderie we have on away trips continuing

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OK, but without going into details my- and many others'- opposition to an all-Ireland football team are rather more fundamental than the loss of some harmony in the pub ;)

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I suspect the middle classes in NI were less hung up on political divides during the Troubles, hence the lack of fuss over a united rugby team, but for the working classes / typical football attending classes it was and probably is more of an issue

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Not really. When it comes to being suspicious or even sectarian the rich are no different to you or I. Even if they have more money.

The significant difference is that in football, partition had already happened long ago.