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Said it here before, the best avenue I can see for funding for new facilities is through the betting tax, either from increasing it, or enough public pressure is built against Greyhound racing that football takes it funding.
It makes perfect sense to be honest.
20 million a year is half a new stadium, a full stadium in two years at 40 million. Money shouldn't even need to be earmarked for LOI clubs, but local councils for sport facilities.
i think it was Charlie McCreevy while Minister for Finance that cut betting tax to a pittance 2002 or so, a man who liked quite a flutter himself. His argument was to fund and develop the racing industry. Job done I would say. Now increase tax, not by 1% but by multiples of the current rate. People talk about the damage gambling does to society, there is a furore over gambling sponsorship especially of sports clubs or events, bookies shops have to be toned down wth minimal shop front 'attractions', much like smoking products and alcohol (cute how a drinks sponsorship can stay exactly as it was if you add 0.0 at the end). So why not tax this scourge, like others, to disincentivise people gambling and use revenue generated to bemefit society, foster safe, healthy activity that contributes to improved mind health, reduce associated gender based violence - things like sporting amenities, community hubs like modern football stadia etc.
If problem gambling is as widespread a people think then surely the powers that be would be open to suggestions to mitigate the problematic element. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander surely, average of 10% on a pint and 9% on tobacco + vat, why exempt betting?
Online betting apps are the real problem in this area and generate most growth in revenue, for as long as there are hooks to get people to sign up like yer €10 free bets, where U18s can easily access apps, that there is proper validation of age and identity across the board and that problem gambling is identified and flagged then any levy should be punitive!
Imagine the difference in the town of Dundalk as a whole if the money that went into the racing stadium went into a new football stadium or Oriel Park. The racing stadium is nearly always empty and is not really part of the social fabric of the town and adds nothing to its identity. If it disappeared tomorrow, very few would notice it.
The football club is by far the best advertisement of the town of Dundalk, bringing in international recognition of a pretty obscure town in the grand sense of things (like how else would anybody hear about a town like Dundalk), yet the conservative nature (as in lack of dynamisms) of our local governance ideas just refuses to build upon these opportunities.
.... rant over..
I dont make the rules :D tbf parts of Sligo are 15 minutes tothe border. I blame Leitrim, getting in the way. Probably wont matter, it might be gone soon! the border I mean, not Leitrim. We seem to be stuck with Leitrim :D : DQuote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
It's a ground for Ulster GAA, so it's certainly arguable that some money from Dublin should go into it. Worth pointing out that it'll ultimately be an asset of by a Dublin-based organisation, and as it's expected to last 40-50 years, it'll likely be within the state during its lifespan.Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
Besides, this is the cheaper option. If Casement wasn't being done, it would likely be Clones, with the state bearing most of the cost, with no northern/UK govt input.
No point having a go at the GAA (or any other sporting organisation). They're great at getting funding, and we, the FAI/football fans generally, need to get better at it.
As I see it, the GAA is better at getting (Irish) government sports funding than other organisations, incl football, for political reasons, not sporting ones. Which hardly seems right to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
Of course ordinarily this is none of my business, since they're not my government and it's not my taxes which are being used in this manner, therefore should they decide eg to shove €50m towards Casement, then that's up to them.
But if that €50m is being used to get over the line a project which additionally needs an inequitable, unfair and unjustifiable subsidy from UK taxes (see my post #7,937, above), then it does concern me.
P.S. This ridiculous delay over Casement has been a prime factor in NI Football's £36m Sub-Regional Stadium funding being delayed for over a decade, a portion of which was thought to have been earmarked for the Brandywell. Has there been much comment about that up the town, or has it not registered before now?
Funding is allocated by politicans, so makes sense to create political reasons for funding. The GAA has excellent branding, miles about any other sport in the country. As pointed out on the BTS podcast, look at GAA sponsors and their eagerness to shout about their sponsorship. Supervalu, AIB, etc. We don't see that with Airtricity, nor Sports Direct.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It is being used for that. Presume the GAA lobbied for it, and Dublin got the SoS to agree to increase UK govt funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Everyone is well aware of it, the club and council have been on about this for ages. Again though, the GAA probably have had a hand in how this is occurred. The Casement money tied to the sub-regional stadium fund with the SF DfC minister, which creates more political pressure, and gives you a bit of cover in case of increased costs. The GAA then get their ground included in the Euros bid, and so get an assurance from Dublin/London about extra cash and a hard date for completion of construction. Now it’s a DUP DfC minister getting pressure to release the stadium fund money, so he’ll have to acquiesce and sort Casement out too.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
So the GAA have gone on a journey from merely being a tenant of a publicly-owned ground at the Maze, to owning a lovely new 34.5k capacity ground for a spend of £15m, which they have in cash. Mightn't like it, but they've played a blinder.
Compare and contrast with the FAI, who don't own Lansdowne, but are still €50m in debt following its redevelopement.
Funding is political, so football needs to step up.
*mind you, after another ****show at the Oireachtas today, the FAI's political capital is close to non-existant.
Government funding is open to all. Look at the clubs across the country who get 100,000 for various schemes. They prepare the submission and have the backing funding in place and usually get most of the funding required. I don't know what the rules are in relation to ownership of grounds are. But a good case and the funding to bridge the gap are vita,
What's the answer then?
Looking at the success of the German fans recently ... Should LOI fans start to organize to advocate for more public sporting facilities?
Yeah exactly, GAA and Rugby get disproportionately more funding as they usually own their own grounds. Most football clubs don't unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stav
Tbh after seein the shambles of our FAI reps in front of the DAIL committee today I wouldnt ave confidence in them stepping up to the mark in sortin out the bad image. Some of these excuses are laughable to say the least!
But thats just it, you're making a case for why it is okay to put money into a Gaa ground ... it should never come to this, its a football competition the have agreed to host. It should be an opportunity to invest in football now and its legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
I didnt have a go at the Gah. Its the process and political gains that are to be questioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
What not have lobbied for exeptions of Windsor and select fixtures that may have less appeal. Casement will hardly be massce itself or particularly ideal with pitch dimensons, all seater stadia dont suit the average GAA ground and fan. The unseen investment to be at UEFA requiements is a significantly higher bar than GAA would require. There will be a lot of money spent on criteria that will be riped out after. Design in a changable pitch/extendable seating and insist that it is multiuse. Im sure the GAA would just be very happy to have Casement sorted so relax their stance on shared facilities. Rugby and football could move games to the bigger ground when here s addtonal demand....
Usually to qualify for funding you must have a lease of 25 yrs or more. Otherwise there's no point in giving the money. So hence self owned grounds are favoured for funding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
Re. the design, simple fact is, that for a variety of reasons, the GAA itself has little need for a stadium of the proposed size and specification in Belfast, otherwise they wouldn't have let Casement decline to the outdated state it had become by 2005.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
Quite simply, they saw a windfall on offer from the Government and thought "Free Hit", let's go ahead and build it, even if it will prove to be a White Elephant - as their own Schedule of Events demonstrated (one projected 32k capacity match per annum).
Not so. The only way the GAA will accept non-GAA use is if it is either sport which doesn't compete with their own code (eg boxing) or non-sporting (eg concerts). When it comes to competing sports (effectively Football and Rugby), they only accept that in exceptional circumstances (eg AVIVA closed so Croke used for rugby, or no Euro's Football stadium in NI), and then only under pressure - and being paid handsomely for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
No harm, but that simply doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
As regards Football, there is no way the IFA would, or should, move games to Casement, full stop. And this is not a political stance, rather it is because they already own Windsor, so the rent paid to Casement would swallow up much (most?) of the extra capacity availaible - only a few thousand when you allow for segregation, and deduct any standing capacity which the GAA may reinstate after the Euro's.
And that's if you can attract extra NI fans. For one thing, fans are creatures of habit (travel, parking, pubs, stadium places etc), so it can prove hard to shake them out if it. For another, GAA pitches are far too big for football, with the seats too far from the action. And finally, many NI fans have no more desire to trek out to Andytown than the good people of Andytown have to receive them. In short, it's someone elses home, with "home" (as opposed to "away") being the operative term.
While Ulster Rugby has even less need or desire for Casement: on the very rare occasion when they need something bigger than Ravenhill, then they're happy to decamp to the AVIVA, it's a great day/weekend out and the IRFU gets to keep all the proceeds, VAT-free.
I think the FAI needs to get its house in order and be "professional" and stop hopping from disaster to disaster. The clubs across all the leagues are the FAI and its about time they grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and demand proper governance. A number of years ago the IRFU suggested they were going to sell tickets online rather than through the clubs. Some clubs signed a motion calling for an EGM of the IRFU. The idea was quickly dropped. There's no point in letting the present position continue. A chief executive who lives in England, a throwaway remark that was acted upon, a fully redacted email presented to an Oireachtas committee and they wonder why they are seen as a joke by most of the country.
i think that most people are reality happy to support any Irish team in international competition but this continuing drip-feeding of information that a junior infant wouldn't engage in sucks support from soccer, if you were a TD or Senator on that committee what would you think. The game and the people who play, support and drive it deserve better.
You can imagine the IFA will allow NI games to be played during the Euros, but after that they will revert back to their own ground Windsor.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
There are no train stations near to casement and no parking you can imagine 20,000 NI fans walking up the Andy town road singing NI and loyalist songs. The locals will go ballistic, claiming its an infringement on their human rights etc or they will react and the political debate will start again.
You're chatting as if Casement is in a different world from Windsor. What are they, 2.5km from each other? Casement has a rail station 1km away, and the Boucher Road parking is still available for there. Maybe it's different for Belfast people, but as a Derry person who lived across the rail line from Windsor, both grounds are basically in the same area, defined by Boucher Road.
Maybe, in the future, we could see NI/Ulster rugby matches being played there. Who knows? The GAA are a lot more open to renting their grounds out these days, for an appropriate fee.
If you want a sensible review of where we're at with Casement, The View on BBC last night (and on iPlayer) is worth a watch. Basically, it's happening, it just needs to get construction started this year. The whole thing is a bit of a charade debate to pressure the SoS into topping up the funds, and to save the DUP some face with their voters.
The whole saga is this place in microcosm.
Somebody didn't like the maze idea, throw the toys out. Somebody didn't like east belfast suggestion throw the toys out. Instead of working together everyone does their own thing.
So rugby gets what they need, and probably sold themselves short.
Football get top table fixed up, bit extra to cover the feck up, and promises on the long finger (that are worth feck all) for those below that need it.
The gaa ask for the moon on a stick - lets be honest it always was akin to bohs asking for dalymount to be 40K all seater. They could have been pragmatic and done what ifa did, and and got 6 modern 20K+ stadia, am sure more than 1 of them could have been expanded to 30K+ by now.
It's getting on for 20 years, or is it more, since the original proposals. If they could have worked together could have a shared 40-50K seater now, and in time since had funding to do up their own smaller venues.
The gaa need their stadium/money, but casement is a white elephant. And it amuses me more than it should that the gaa's vanity project seems now to be relying on funding as part of a british tory government's vanity project.
The figures bandied about are pie in the sky, but 2-3 times the original cost doesn't seem too out there. So up to a 100M shortfall after dublin, stormont and gaa monies.
I was going to say I wouldn't expect this sos to meet that shortfall. But just seen something about sub-regional stadium pot now needing to increase to 100M+ to cover cost increases. So yeah as b_e says, shenagians. Waiting on new costings to be anouncend, sos agrees to meet most of the shortfall possibly adds to sub reginal pot as legacy, stormont and gaa find bit more down back of sofa. Or were sitting here in two years feck all having happened, cos of our politicians.
Speaking of the sub-regional funding, the Brandywell pitch review is ongoing.
As things stand, it's fine for this year, and probably for 2025 as well. The council will consider their options, with "income not a deciding factor". Interesting line that, as the council take in £80k a year off that pitch.
Reading between the lines, they seem to be leaning towards a hybrid pitch. You can get more wear out of it than a standard grass pitch. A sprinkler system was specifically mentioned too, so hopefully no more need for a lad with a power hose and a wheelie bin full of water.