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His tenure has been a disaster? Really. What could he have done any different with this team?
There are players in this team who have should have been got rid of while Trap was in charge. No new players were blooded and then O'Neill was left with a certain group he had to proceed with in order to try to gain qualification.
Make no mistake about it, Martin O'Neill is one of the best managers out there. His time at the helm of the Ireland team will not change that one jot.
Wow Mark, for a guy who likes his football smooth and pure Im surprised you can't find fault in O'Neill's style and even selections.
i go along with this largely, unless some very appealing manager throws his hat in the ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
my initial reaction on hearing the news was that i really hope it's true followed by 'i hope roy doesnt get the job!'. but if he gets the gig until the end of the campaign he can have no complaints - there's a small chance he might turn things around as he did in his sunderland role.
is there anyone who doesn't want o'neill to go?
edit: just saw mark12345's post so evidently yes...
Judging by MON record at Sunderland and Ireland, this could be a step backwards Leicester. As I said at the time when he left SAFC, he was the right man but at the wrong time. It's looks like the same with RoI. O'Neill looks like an old fashion manager lost in the modern game and he isn't quite the same with John Robertson. He looks like he's lost the fight and passion he was famous for.
As for Ireland, I'd like to see us go for a Lars Lagerback type manager. I think we need to look throughout world football for the next manager. We went with big name managers on the last two and infairness Trap was a success to a certain extent. But big names don't always work.
Yes I know that but it's a question of degrees. O'Neill was much worse and said it before we even kicked a ball.
You answered your own question there. He could have used the near-12 months he had to prepare for his first competitive match to overhaul the squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
honestly who do you think is out there who would improve our squad?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
my main problem with oneill is that he has so far failed to get the most out of our better players in particular. having said that I don't think his tenure has been the disaster some make it out to be.
Fair enough, leave Keane for the remainder of this campaign. But I think we all agree even if we do perform miracles and qualify, we are not going anywhere in the Finals.
We are way beyond the time and need for a completely different approach to the grass roots game in Ireland (youth football I'm talking about). I've said it here for quite a few years now - if we devoted a portion of the money we are paying to the big name managers to five or six top notch South American youth coaches (look at Chile for Heaven's sake) we would be investing so much more in our future. Let those coaches teach our coaches the finer points of the technical game - something we used to have in Ireland 40 or 50 years ago (believe it or not) but like England have lost it and cannot seem to get it back. I keep hearing about top level Irish coaches coming through, but in all honesty can any of them bring to the table the sort of skills that an Alexis Sanchez, Neymar or Sergio Aguero has (in order to teach those type of skills to our young kids). I think not? So let's start thinking about a whole new approach to the youth set up so that we can reap dividends in fifteen years time.
Yeah and I get the impression Keane wasn't questioning the talent a such, more the desire of players to make the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I can't find much fault with O'Neill himself Stutts. Remember the brilliant performances he got out of Celtic and Leicester during his tenures there.
Like everyone else I questioned his withdrawing Hoolahan against Scotland, and one or two other personnel choices during his time as Ireland manager. But by and large there is very little else he could have done with this team
There have been eyebrow raising tactical and personnel decisions in pretty much every single game.
Eh......no he couldn't. He only had a few matches to work with and although he could have brought in a couple of different players, the table was pretty much set for him. He needed to focus on qualifying for the Euros as his top priority. And in all honesty he did not / does not have too many sharp tools to work with anyway.
Michael O'Neill had no problems getting the best out of Kyle Lafferty & Oliver Norwood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Does not compute.Quote:
Like everyone else I questioned his withdrawing Hoolahan against Scotland, and one or two other personnel choices during his time as Ireland manager. But by and large there is very little else he could have done with this team
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
He had 7/8 friendlies over a 1.5 year period before the euro quals kicked off
I blame gonzo journalism myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Look Mark, at the end of the day he's achieved nothing with us and it seems he is abandoning ship halfway through a poor first campaign, and for who... Leicester fecking City. That's how big a job we were to him, less than Leicester, I don't care what his history is there. I felt it in his body language anyway to be honest, even if the mellowing with age explanation was a valid one. Mick McCarthy isn't perfect, but the one thing I always felt with him is that he saw the job as a big deal, a really big deal and an absolute honour. I'd be lying if I said I got the same vibe off O'Neill, in fact I got it a lot more off Roy Keane in a lesser role.
You're reading way too much into the manager's contribution or lack of. Fact is we do not have a defence worthy of the name (Seamus Coleman is the only quality player - Robbie Brady though quite brilliant at times is a makeshift left back).
O'Shea, Wilson are not international quality (the comparison others make to Northern Ireland and Wales and Scotland getting the best of similar type players is great but does not apply in O'Shea's case at least because he has been there forever and has failed to do the job on most occasions) and Given is past it (but he has more experience than Westwood and is playing at the top level still).
A midfield with the likes of Whelan preferred (a legitimate weapon to use against MON) cannot expect to function properly, and a posse of superficial players further forward (Walters, McLean, McGeady, Long - all capable of very good performances at times but far too patchy at international level) and an aging world class striker in Robbie, and it is not hard to see why we are struggling. You can talk about all the tactical and personnel decisions you want but at the end of the day these 11 or 14 professionals are the ones who take to the field for any given international and if they are not performing then it does not matter who the manager is
So, what you're saying is, unless we have players like Iniesta, Messi, Ronaldo, De Gea, etc. then we're not going to get anywhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Can't say I'd mourn his departure all that much. The tactics have been sterile, we've had players in the wrong positions, and the constant public rubbishing of our players has to have had some impact on morale and confidence (I'm more of the John Lambie 'tell him he's Pele and get him back on' school of motivation). Let Keane use the rest of the games as an audition - we're all but out of realistic contention anyway. If he does well, keep him on; if he doesn't a new manager will have next year's friendlies to get warmed into the job.
And that is why he is talked about for the Leicester job! Thats about his level really, mid team EPL, nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
No I'm not saying that, and in fact I would point to Costa Rica in the last World Cup and the likes of Paraguay, Chile and Belgium more recently. But this particular group has not worked because of a lack of quality all over the pitch, starting with the most porous defence we have had in a long time. We need a complete overhaul from the bottom up and indeed from the top down if you consider Delaney. But casting aside the success that O'Neill and Keane have had as players and managers as some have done on here, and indeed their knowledge of the Irish players out there would be second to none, and also casting aside the success Trap had as a manager before he came to Ireland, is just wrong. They were successful people in their lives, our players (the current bunch) with one or two exceptions have not been. So the players bear a huge amount of responsibility is what I would say.
ding ding ding, he's out.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Which is not a bad level really. No he doesn't have the profile of an Ancelotti, Mourinho or Guardiola, but he is still a brilliant manager. Taking a Celtic team all the way to the Uefa Cup and managing them to victories over the likes of Juventus and Barcelona was nothing short of phenomenal. Taking Leicester to Wembley (twice was it?) against the top tier teams of that era, was also something brilliant. He also played on the N. Ireland team which shocked the world at the 1982 World Cup. And are you forgetting that he played under arguably the best coach of modern times in English football in Brian Clough. So he has quite a pedigree.
Logic please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Well to bring it back to the question I was addressing, who was there that wasn't there 12 months previously when Trap was in charge? MON brought in Hoolahan very sparingly and has only recently come to have faith in him. He's struck the right balance in defence but made a strange decision to recall a 38 year old goalkeeper. The midfield is a bit of a basket case still. He's played 10 different strikers and still doesn't know which one he wants to pick. The squad has aged faster than the two years he's been in charge for, and it wasn't a young squad to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
You say pedigree, I say Peter Princple.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
I don't believe for a single second that Martin O'Neill's knowledge of the best Irish players in the UK is second to none. Simple. It's not.
The point I was trying to get you to see earlier was this. O'Neill's Celtic were a breath of fresh air because they were different. His 3-5-2 in Europe with Guppy and Agathe utilised the squad he had to its maximum. That arguably is the formation that would suit us best, and utilise the best players available to us.
He didn't bother his jacksie trying anything worthwhile despite a huge amount of lead-in time that he himself bemoaned.
And don't pull the line of playing under one of the best managers of all time lark either. His football at Leicester was deplorable dirge that made the most of the ferocity of Matty Elliot and gerry Taggart at the back, Savage, Izzet and Lennon in midfield and that lump Heskey up top. The only team of note they beat getting to the 2nd final was Leeds, on penalties. They beat Tranmere in the final ffs. The year before again the only "major" team they beat was Leeds.
His Celtic tenure was a success, no doubt about it, and his European adventure was impressive. That's 12 years ago, and tbh, it shows, because football has steadily improved, but it looks like O'Neill has stood still.
Elaborate pleaseQuote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
we are not out of contention at all. it cant be argued that we are out of contention given our current situation while at the same time expressing the belief that there are managers out there who would improve our results. a draw at home to Germany and a win away to Poland should not be beyond such a managerQuote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Maybe time has passed him by in the game, but if that indeed is a factor it is just negligible. He was involved up to a few years ago. And my point about knowledge of Irish players being second to none was that the combined force of Keane and O'Neill's knowledge of the Irish players out there would have been second to none (on the international stage) in my opinion. After all didn't we all bemoan Trap's lack of knowledge about the players available to him and didn't we say that he didn't attend enough matches. O'Neill and Keane were a vast improvement on that score. I don't disagree completely with your earlier point but I do have a problem with you dismissing his time under Clough so easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Deleted - didn't quote mark12345 and new posts popped in between.
Sorry - thought the Peter Principle was a well-known concept. Managers are promoted because they do a job well, but will eventually find their level of incompetence with promotion to a job that is beyond them. It's not necessarily that they are incompetent, but, for example, that trends overtake the knowledge or skills that made them a success in the past - where their pedigree was shaped. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/peter-principle.asp has a bit more on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
"He's struck the right balance in defence"Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Nothing but nothing could be further from the truth. That is where our problems begin and end, and indeed if someone wanted to aim missiles at O'Neill and Keane, they could very easily start there.
It is possible that the game has passed MON by slightly, but as stated in an earlier post, such margins in his case, if they exist at all, are negligible. It depends on what we are talking about here. The 'Game' encompasses a lot of things and if we are comparing the Real Madrid / Barcelona / Germany / Brazil / Argentina level then I don't think we can apply that in this case. If we are talking more about our own level then I think Martin O'Neill was quite a good appointment under the circumstances. Failure has reared its ugly head however under his watch, but as Einstein said craziness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have continued with hiring high profile managers in an effort to get the best out of a mediocre at best bunch of players. Change from the bottom up is long overdueQuote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
The parade is in full swing here chaps. We just threw paper at Carli and Tobin, both of our greatest state. I wish you chaps could experience the joy of sports success even one time. There's free hotdogs! Or as Stutts calls them weiners.
How's the weather in Jersey?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Martin O'Neill won an awful lot as a player.
Martin O'Neill did play under one of the greatest managers the English game has seen
Martin O'Neill brought great success to Leicester, brought good success to Celtic, and comparable success to Wycombe.
Martin O'Neill's teams brought great determination and character to the field of play.
Martin O'Neill's teams have not played superb expansive football
Martin O'Neill has often been referred to as a great orator, and a great man-manager
Martin O'Neill's appointed coaches at club level have often been lauded by players for their innovation on the training field.
Martin O'Neill, like Brian Clough, was not lauded for his innovation on the training field, but his presence on the training field.
Giovanni Trappatoni took Ireland from our lowest ebb of modern times, and made us an extremely tough outfit to beat, even if the football was horrific. He went through one campaign unbeaten, and another campaign with one defeat.
Giovanni Trappatoni was on significant salary but due to the involvement in Euro2012, arguably earned that wage.
Giovanni Trappatoni stayed one campaign too long.
Under O'Neill, Ireland's squad is weaker.
Under O'Neill, Ireland have regressed tactically, defensively, offensively.
Under O'Neill, Ireland have not had value for money.
Leicester are welcome to him.
John Delaney needs to man up. Enough with the populist managers, and enough with ceding responsibility to managerial committees. Delaney needs to analyse what can be classified as success stories in modern-day football, and the conditions that made those teams a success. Tactics, coaching, innovation, luck, player pools. Not in the Uk, Not in Scotland, but in Europe. I could present the FAI with a dossier with that info given a few weeks and a few grand.
We're hung up appointing managers/coaches that know the "English" game. Knowing the English game isn't worth jacksheet when we'll be playing at least one Eastern team, one central European team and probably a Nordic team. Knowing the European game is important. Identifying a way to be effective against our peers, and identifying the players to do that is important.
And it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg.
I don't agree we've regressed tactically. He's made necessary changes Trap was unprepared to make.
I really and truly do not understand a single bit of the above. I'm trying to read between the lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
You are saying that is marginal if European football has bypassed MON's philosophy.
Why would we be comparing the elite club and elite national teams with ROI?
You could argue that generally you could combine pots 2,3 & 4 and there is not a great deal of difference from 90% of those teams. Our peers. But if we're talking about our peers, then you need to look at how much money Scotland pay Strachan, Poland pay Workowski, Czech's pay Vrba, Turkey pay Terim, Ukraine pay Formenko and so on and so forth, and it's then that you conclude if MON is a brilliant appointment for the money we're paying, and it just cannot be claimed that it is.
Conditions change regularily in football, and as is alluded elsewhere, some benefit, some lose out.
You say:I say we've continued to hire the same style of manager in an effort to get the best out of a mediocre at best bunch of players. Change is long overdueQuote:
We have continued with hiring high profile managers in an effort to get the best out of a mediocre at best bunch of players. Change from the bottom up is long overdue
Martin O'Neill, for a footballing country like Ireland, with our economic state, earns a disgusting amount of money for the job he performs. No different to our CEO. The money paid to hire the present management team is ridiculous, and totally unnecessary.