James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

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Originally Posted by The Fly

Are you happy with the future Queen Consort as well?

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I'm not unhappy about it.

That 'difficult second season'.

Starting to think MO'N has started to lose the plot a wee bit too...

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I'm not unhappy about it.

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Now that's loyalism. ;)

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Regarding your last point, you my friend existing in that bubble of reality called Northern Ireland are a dinosaur of a bygone age. The average English person where I live in the South East who's considerably less than pensionable age has no great vested interest in remembrance day or the current plight of their armed forces. They have similar opinions to me on the matter than you which will come as no great surprise to anyone who's lived over here.

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I am no dinosaur, my friend. That I respect the sacrifices and bravery of our Armed Forces, and uphold your right (and that of anyone else, including young McClean) who chooses to think differently on that issue, does not me a dinasaur make.

If you think, based on your "average English person" (whatever that means?) survey, that the United Kingdom will ever forget The Fallen, you are sadly deluded.

In villages, towns and Cities throughout the South East Of England (and elsewhere in the United Kingdom and further afield) , people will be wearing Poppies in proud Remembrance of The Fallen until well after you and me are dust.

Another take.
http://www.wsc.co.uk/forum-index/28-...elp-for-heroes

See if you can spot the occasional foot.ie poster...

And an apt reflection on the poppy hype.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-poppy-cartoon

And a good piece.
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/n...ew/full/125980

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Fair point Peader but I'd imagine most of the rank and file of the SS truly believed they were protecting and indeed promoting the well being of Germany during World War 2. Few would have seen themselves as the fanatical and aggressive threat they undoubtedly were. If young lads are stupid enough to believe they are protecting one of the most powerful countries in the world from danger by fighting Pashtun tribesmen in the remote hills of Afghanistan whos way of life has changed little in hundreds of years then I'm not sure they deserve much respect. Pity perhaps but not respect and far less pity than the innocents caught up in the fighting. This poppy thing will be ditched by the British in time anyway. Most young people here think of it in similar means as I do a leftover of a bygone age best consigned to the past - it's the crusty nosed toffs in the establishment that keep these ideas alive but fortunately most of these will be dead in the next few decades anyway.

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Swerving wildly off topic here, but I had a good discussion with someone about this the other day. We were talking about the Aztecs, and how immoral human sacrifice was. I sort of reckon if you were an Aztec priest who sincerely believed the sun god was going to make the crops fail, and therefore reluctantly cut the hearts out of peoples' chests, you can't really be considered a bad person. Morals is a really, really complicated issue though. Not really one for a James McClean thread!

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

We were talking about the Aztecs, and how immoral human sacrifice was.

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I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

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Yes the mindless meat grinder of human flesh that was the Great War. It achieved the enviable goal of amplifying the hatred and bitterness that had existed beforehand and helped pave the way for an even greater war 21 years later. Such noble sacrifice indeed to jump out of a trench into a hail of machine gun bullets at the command of some inbred, aristocratic, idiotic officer with little or no actual combat experience miles behind the lines who achieved his commission because his daddy played cricket on Sunday afternoons with the Prime minister's cousin. Yes that same top brass drawn from the upper echelons of British society who had declared war on Germany in the first place to protect their own vested interests.

What's it like living in 1895? You have about the same understanding of these topics as the average Victorian gnat. Do you ever actually question this tripe you've been spoonfed from birth and tried to formulate anything resembling an opinion of your own on these matters or would that be too much to ask?

For my part I have no interest in Brit bashing. My son is English and most of my friends are English. My objections are noted in quite a fair bit of detail above and centre around the whole ridiculousness of placing people who essentially are trained to kill other people on some sort of pedestal in 21st century society. Its comical to some degree. The fact you don't get the joke makes it even more so.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Yes the mindless meat grinder of human flesh that was the Great War. It achieved the enviable goal of amplifying the hatred and bitterness that had existed beforehand and helped pave the way for an even greater war 21 years later. Such noble sacrifice indeed to jump out of a trench into a hail of machine gun bullets at the command of some inbred, aristocratic, idiotic officer with little or no actual combat experience miles behind the lines who achieved his commission because his daddy played cricket on Sunday afternoons with the Prime minister's cousin. Yes that same top brass drawn from the upper echelons of British society who had declared war on Germany in the first place to protect their own vested interests.

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What makes those massed ranks of young men particularly worthy of respect and remembrance, is that they were mainly conscripted into the horrors of WWI.

Not true the majority of British soldiers killed in World War 1 were volunteers. Only after 1916 was conscription introduced. Nobody in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Falklands or any of the other conflicts that Britain have been involved in were conscripts with the exception of World War 2 so this is a fairly inconsequential argument.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Not true the majority of British soldiers killed in World War 1 were volunteers. Only after 1916 was conscription introduced.

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I was referring to the Allied forces as a whole.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Nobody in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Falklands or any of the other conflicts that Britain have been involved in were conscripts with the exception of World War 2 so this is a fairly inconsequential argument.

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I know that. I haven't referred to Iraq, Afghanistan or any other conflict/war that Britain has been involved in post-WW2.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I was talking to some pals on Saturday about the ANZACS - their sacrifices will always be remembered and respected by those of us who appreciate their enormous contribution to victory in the Great War.

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It is interesting you mention the ANZACs. At no point in any ceremony over here are the sacrifices of anyone outside of Oz and NZ mentioned or acknowledged. They really don't care about the 'Old Country' or any contribution made by anyone else.

And in an attempt to derail the poppy debate, James is auctioning his poppyless top, all proceeds to go to a local cancer ward. Ahh, isn't he wonderful!:) That or Sunderland have a good PR person.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...=feeds-newsxml

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Originally Posted by SkStu

No, I don't wear one.

What don't I understand? That its majorly pro-Brit symbolism? If that's the case then just say it. I know that if it was majorly pro-Brit, it would probably **** me off hearing about it between bouts of Coronation Street and Eastenders. I actually don't have much of an opinion on the wearing or non-wearing of a poppy despite what the last few pages would suggest. And im all for personal choice in most circumstances. I just think that McCleans actions are a bit immature and self indulgent. He knows from his twitter abuse that this is easy pickings for those that want it to be and he just goes ahead and gives them what they want. We should be talking about his performances, not this sh!te.

I still don't understand what bennocelt was getting at.

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Just that you seem to be dishing people who actually live and have friends and family in Britain from your lofty position in Canada........:)

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Are we starting all over again Danny?

I'm not in the public eye, haven't gone against the rest of my team and haven't been involved in highly publicized, politically sensitive, Internet arguments.

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Hypothetically-speaking, if you were in the public eye and the trend was to wear a poppy if you so wished, would you wear one, and what would be the reasoning behind your decision? Would it be a statement either way? (I won't suggest you might be involved in highly-publicised, politically-sensitive internet argument! :p)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

It hasn't.

Millions of people, throughout the World, with no connection to "loyalism" and "British nationalist institutions" (whatever they are?) wear a Poppy with pride.

That's like me saying the noble National Flag of the Republic Of Ireland has been hijacked by Republican terrorists and criminal gangs, such as those who slaughtered Mr Black only a couple of weeks ago.

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There are those north of the border who attach such meaning to the flag of Ireland and who would have trouble "respecting" it for vaguely similar reasons to why James McClean might have had trouble wearing a poppy. As I mentioned already, Sammy Morrow, a Protestant from Limavady, was the only player between the two sides - Derry and Bohs - who opted not to face the Irish tricolour whilst 'Amhrán na bhFiann' was being played before the 2008 FAI Cup final. Given his communal background, his stance may well have related to the (unnofficial) association of the tricolour with (militant) republicanism. Of course, he stood out like a sore thumb and it all looked a little awkward. Indeed, I recall some idiots getting all het up about it at the time, both in the stands and online after the game, but that was Morrow's own personal business; something that was entirely up to him and of none of their concern. Obviously, the tricolour possesses different connotations for Sammy Morrow to the meaning it holds for myself and many others who identify it as our national flag, but I wouldn't call him ignorant or an idiot because he might perceive it differently. It's unfortunate he sees it in a way it was unintended to be seen, but that's reality.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

The British were beaten before also, when they were ruling the world.

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This is the British armies fourth war in Afghanistan in 170 years. None of the others achieved anything of lasting significance but considerable loss of life on both sides and the eventual withdrawal and/or defeat of the British. Why anyone thought it would be any different this time is beyond me. Talk about history repeating.

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Originally Posted by gastric

It is interesting you mention the ANZACs. At no point in any ceremony over here are the sacrifices of anyone outside of Oz and NZ mentioned or acknowledged. They really don't care about the 'Old Country' or any contribution made by anyone else.

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Maybe when your next in London you should visit The Cenotaph in Whitehall.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I am no dinosaur, my friend. That I respect the sacrifices and bravery of our Armed Forces, and uphold your right (and that of anyone else, including young McClean) who chooses to think differently on that issue, does not me a dinasaur make.

If you think, based on your "average English person" (whatever that means?) survey, that the United Kingdom will ever forget The Fallen, you are sadly deluded.

In villages, towns and Cities throughout the South East Of England (and elsewhere in the United Kingdom and further afield) , people will be wearing Poppies in proud Remembrance of The Fallen until well after you and me are dust.

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NB, just a little test, by an individual, and not to be used as a proper survey(less than ~1000 :D) but I've counted on the tube to work every morning how many of those around me are wearing poppies. Its notable by the serious lack of poppy wearing commuters. I would say about 1/5th for the last 10 days or so. There are poppy sellers at many tube stations, so plenty of opportunity, yet so few wear it ( even at work so few people wear them, and on the way to work - from tube to office- I don't see very many either).The demographic of the people is impossible to define, because it is so diverse, the only thing we have in common is we work in Canary Wharf. This is the changing face of Britain. You will have your strongholds in untouched country areas and pockets in the Home Counties.

I'm sure if you were working in MOD or GCHQ then you would see a huge reversal, but sadly these are the only places where its still observed with the patriotism that you believe in.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

NB, just a little test, by an individual, and not to be used as a proper survey(less than ~1000 :D) but I've counted on the tube to work every morning how many of those around me are wearing poppies. Its notable by the serious lack of poppy wearing commuters. I would say about 1/5th for the last 10 days or so. There are poppy sellers at many tube stations, so plenty of opportunity, yet so few wear it ( even at work so few people wear them, and on the way to work - from tube to office- I don't see very many either).The demographic of the people is impossible to define, because it is so diverse, the only thing we have in common is we work in Canary Wharf. This is the changing face of Britain. You will have your strongholds in untouched country areas and pockets in the Home Counties.

I'm sure if you were working in MOD or GCHQ then you would see a huge reversal, but sadly these are the only places where its still observed with the patriotism that you believe in.

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Walking around Brighton for the past week or so I have yet to notice anyone wearing one.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

For my part I have no interest in Brit bashing. My son is English and most of my friends are English. My objections are noted in quite a fair bit of detail above and centre around the whole ridiculousness of placing people who essentially are trained to kill other people on some sort of pedestal in 21st century society. Its comical to some degree. The fact you don't get the joke makes it even more so.

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Your son is English....no way YI!!!

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Walking around Brighton for the past week or so I have yet to notice anyone wearing one.

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Various Services of Remembrance were held in Brighton on Sunday morning - as they were in villages, towns and cities throughout the United Kingdom. Most attending will have worn a Poppy.

It will be the same next year, and every year thereafter.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Various Services of Remembrance were held in Brighton on Sunday morning - as they were in villages, towns and cities throughout the United Kingdom. Most attending will have worn a Poppy.

It will be the same next year, and every year thereafter.

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brazil , Youngirish was saying as he walked aroung Brighton he did not see many people wearing the poppy !! he never mentioned anything about community not organising rememberance services.

the whole poppy wearing overkill by uk media is totally over the top every tv show you watch or live programmes it's like you have to wear a poppy or you offend the whole uk population as for james mc clean i can totally understand why he chose not to wear poppy( not going into the politics or history) and must applaud him for having the guts to do it by the way watched 2-3 live soccer games at weekend and alot of the fans in the crowds were not wearing poppy's.

That's as maybe, NB.

But I reckon James McClean is just following a trend. Given the freedom of choice, the majority of British people won't wear one, let alone an Irish nationalist from Doire...
;)

Not because we're not ungrateful to all the Allies who fought v.Nazis (& even feel sorrow for the ordinary soldiers on the other side), but because the likes of the poppy have been hijacked by the Brit.Establishment and far-right to justify their pathetic military forays against people who are no material threat to them.

As with wearing ANY charity fundraising stickie, it's purely personal choice. Nobody would berate you for refusing to buy or wear (having bought) a red ribbon, or a yellow daisy etc. Because the UK are heavily involved in existing conflicts, there is a level of awareness of servicepersons being killed/maimed etc, so it is always relevant. However the whole poppy idea just rolls along with the hypocrisy and meeja/government driven manipulation as is seen in Russia when they have their "Victory" day - don't ask anyone whether the victory was over Poland and why the war only lasted from 1941-5. I was in Germany the week before last and was horrified and a little angry to see a rather loud speaking twit walking around Dusseldorf airport wearing a poppy. I met and spoke with a number of other British in other spots subsequently and didn't see a poppy anywhere, even though we discussed WWII and bombing campaigns. I could only consider that this yoke was wearing it before he got on his flight from London and forgot to take it off.

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Originally Posted by old git

as for james mc clean i can totally understand why he chose not to wear poppy

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As I have stated earlier, I uphold the right of James McClean, or anyone else, not to wear a Poppy. That's what freedom of choice is all about.

This reminds me, ever so slightly, of 1930s Munich

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKKJb06Elo4

POPPY PRIDE!!!!

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

As I have stated earlier, I uphold the right of James McClean, or anyone else, not to wear a Poppy. That's what freedom of choice is all about.

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You have consistently been a voice of reason on this issue and for that I salute you mo chara!

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

As I have stated earlier, I uphold the right of James McClean, or anyone else, not to wear a Poppy. That's what freedom of choice is all about.

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fair dues Brazil , it's a pity the media machine in uk cannot see it like that there is alot more problems / issues in uk to be covered by the media than a well paid footballer not wearing a poppy on his football jersey.

'Sunderland midfielder Meyler defends McClean's poppy decision': http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3908/...poppy-decision

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Sunderland midfielder David Meyler has defended team-mate James McClean's decision not to wear a poppy on his jersey for last Saturday’s game against Everton in the Premier League.

The Derry-born winger caused some controversy by not donning the same style shirt, embroidered with the poppy symbol to mark Remembrance Sunday, as the rest of the Black Cats team but Meyler says the incident has been blown out of proportion.

"James is James," Meyler told reporters. "James is his own man, I respect his decision. Obviously, his friends and family were involved in Bloody Sunday so it's understandable.

"A lot of people have blown it up a bit too much. It's not that big of a deal for him. It's a family decision, it's his call and I respect his decision. He's a close pal of mine.

"I think people in England have jumped on the bandwagon a bit too easily and come out and nailed him and hammered him a bit and it's a bit unfair.

"James showed that if you don't want to wear it you don't have to wear it. That was James' decision.

"A lot of other players probably chose to wear them. That's just the way it is and the club don't force you to really do anything."

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Originally Posted by Fixer82

You have consistently been a voice of reason on this issue and for that I salute you mo chara!

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On this, yes he's right. But wouldn't agree with his other posts on this.

I forgot to add that the UVF guy I mentioned had served a life sentence for his part in the murder of 2 brothers he worked with who were killed simply because of their religion yet people see the poppy as a way of remembering him too and it is widely used by loyalist paramilitaries as a symbol of remembrance for their own men and there have been wreaths laid at war memorials in Belfast before by the UVF etc. To be fair though if people want to do that that is fair enough and if they want to then that is fine although they have no right to spew all this vitriol and hatred about those that do not and over the last few days I have seen a lot of crap posted by unionists on fbook about how disgusting it all is that people don't wear it and that they are scum and blah blah. Even discussed the whole McClean situation with a guy who was very critical of McClean and as I have said I can see why people are annoyed like but they need to have a bit of perspective and I put it to him that if you were from the Creggan in Derry you would hardly have much time for the British Army given the things they done there and mentioned bloody sunday, and his response was that anyone that got killed there by the Army deserved it aghast by this I said are you serious and he was and dismissed the finding of the Saville Report etc. Makes you wonder like especially since this guy was young enough and a University student at that! It reflects the whole head in the sand aspect to this though in that they could equally be saying lest we remember in terms of the conscious decision to completely ignore or deny the fact that the British military has not always been the good guy and has perpetrated some terrible acts. Even recently in the case of 5 royal marines who are being charged with murder while on duty in Afghanistan, despite there being video evidence to support the charge there has been a large campaign against any charges being made against.

A lot of the pro-union lads up there, remind me a lot of the israelis living in the settlements in the West bank. And, no, nothing to do with illegal occupation :D I always find it ironic how they play the persecution card at every attempt with reference of WWII - and rightfully so -yet persecute the palestinians on a daily basis.

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Originally Posted by SolitudeRed

I have seen a lot of crap posted by unionists on fbook about how disgusting it all is that people don't wear it and that they are scum and blah blah. Even discussed the whole McClean situation with a guy who was very critical of McClean and as I have said I can see why people are annoyed like but they need to have a bit of perspective and I put it to him that if you were from the Creggan in Derry you would hardly have much time for the British Army given the things they done there and mentioned bloody sunday, and his response was that anyone that got killed there by the Army deserved it aghast by this I said are you serious and he was and dismissed the finding of the Saville Report etc. Makes you wonder like especially since this guy was young enough and a University student at that! It reflects the whole head in the sand aspect to this though in that they could equally be saying lest we remember in terms of the conscious decision to completely ignore or deny the fact that the British military has not always been the good guy and has perpetrated some terrible acts.

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Well, SR, let this proud and unapologetic Unionist unequivocally tell you that those killed on Bloody Sunday did not deserve it - The Prime Minister of The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland has made that clear on behalf of the Nation. Many people have lost their lives that didn't deserve it.

Let me also tell you that I wholly acknowledge that the British Military has perpetrated some terrible acts - I struggle to think of any State Military Forces that have not perpetrated some terrible acts in War and conflict.

Those terrible acts do not wash away the debt of gratitude I have for those from our Nation who have laid down their lives in many theatres of War, and continue to do so to this day - that does not mean I agree with some of the Wars they have been asked to fight.

I do not demand that you, or anyone else, has that debt of gratitude. That is entirely your choice.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

A lot of the pro-union lads up there, remind me a lot of the israelis living in the settlements in the West bank. And, no, nothing to do with illegal occupation :D I always find it ironic how they play the persecution card at every attempt with reference of WWII - and rightfully so -yet persecute the palestinians on a daily basis.

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Slightly off topic but yes, I agree. The US should cut off their allowance

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Your son is English....no way YI!!!

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He has an Irish passport but he's born and bred in England so I would think he's English. We'll see what he has to say on the matter himself when he's old enough to decide these things.

The BNP have spoken: http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/...ses-wear-poppy

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This weekend thousands of people showed their respect for the brave men and women who gave their lives so that we can now be free.

Up and down the country people stood in silence at cenotaph’s, heads bowed in remembrance of the dead.

Premier football teams wore specially designed shirts displaying the poppy, these shirts are to be auctioned off for the poppy appeal, but yet there was one man, James McClean who refused to wear one.

The Londonderry born Republic of Ireland player asked if he could wear a normal shirt as he does not support the poppy appeal.

If this man has chosen to show so much disrespect to the people of this country, we need to ask the question why has he chosen to live here?

Is it because of the thousand of pounds he receives every week in wages?

In my opinion this man is no different to the Muslim fanatics that burnt the poppy two years ago and should be treated with the same contempt as those vile creatures have been.

Let’s hope every football fan in the country shows this bitter little man just what they think of him every time he takes to the field.

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Jesus wept.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

He has an Irish passport but he's born and bred in England so I would think he's English. We'll see what he has to say on the matter himself when he's old enough to decide these things.

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In the meantime, is he called youngenglish?:)

i love NBs use of nation and all other articles and pieces,like above,refer to country.you gotta love the english nd especially the bit about "if he doesnt want to live in this country" well he never wanted to live in the union but ubfortunately its what he calls home you tw@t!!!whether thats england,wales,scotland or the channel islands. And from their perspective Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In the meantime, is he called youngenglish?:)

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Very good NB :D
why cant you thank on andriod mobile or tablet?!

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Originally Posted by youngirish

He has an Irish passport but he's born and bred in England so I would think he's English. We'll see what he has to say on the matter himself when he's old enough to decide these things.

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how he decides is purely down to you!!