Declan Rice

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Originally Posted by TrapAPony

Ireland need to start weeding out these dual national lads early on. For instance, Conor Coventry (just an example) at West Ham should be called up to the Senior squad and if he refuses then out he goes.

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100% this. This is the only variable we can control. Cap tie them early on, it feels a little like we would be hoarding players but it would stop this charade from happening again.

He was our u17 player of the year two years ago a couple of months later we played Moldova, we were 2-0 up at home, we brought on After for Hoolihan and Maguire for Long at the end, if we'd slung him on he'd have been tied to us.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Moldova, we were 2-0 up at home, we brought on After for Hoolihan and Maguire for Long at the end, if we'd slung him on he'd have been tied to us.

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MON hinted at something at the time, that lead me to believe he would have hedged, but equally that would be a better outcome than this. Also, and this is key, MONs subsequent handling of the Obafemi matter casts complete doubt on his decision making ability in these scenarios.

Cap them, tell them they are getting capped, call them out early I agree, with a tandem strategy of no second chances, if its us pick us but we aren't going to be an either or while you see how the career is shaping up. Take that off the table, even three months ago, and we would have been stronger in this. We have cards, so play them.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

100% this. This is the only variable we can control. Cap tie them early on, it feels a little like we would be hoarding players but it would stop this charade from happening again.

He was our u17 player of the year two years ago a couple of months later we played Moldova, we were 2-0 up at home, we brought on After for Hoolihan and Maguire for Long at the end, if we'd slung him on he'd have been tied to us.

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he had only played less than a couple of hours of premiership football at that stage from memory. we cant cheapen caps in the way you suggest. also, everything that Rice was saying and acted at that stage, and continued to do so after Moldova, gave management no reasons at all to be fearful he would jump ship.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Also, and this is key, MONs subsequent handling of the Obafemi matter casts complete doubt on his decision making ability in these scenarios.

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Maybe MON thought the best way of dealing with the obafemi issue was to draw him out and effectively force him to announce there and then that he was fully committed to us. if it was the policy it worked

It's what Wales have done and they've held onto two awesome prospects in Ampadu and Brooks as a result. You could argue both of those guys are on a similar level to Rice in terms of potential.

Wales have done it extremely successfully.

I'd be more inclined to suggest you offer the call-up and if declined that's the end of the matter. It's likely not to be as clear-cut as that though, e.g. "I'm injured", or "I've just broken into my club side and want to concentrate on that", rather than "I'm keeping my options open".

I suspect what is so galling about the Rice situation is that despite what you can on one reading, take from his statement yesterday, up until England showed an interest he appears to have been determined to play for Ireland. At the very beginning of the speculation Rice gave an interview in which he said words to the effect that there was no decision to make. He didn't have to make that statement, and it's different to Grealish who never (as far as I am aware) gave a similar commitment.

There are lessons to be learned from the top down in the FAI. Should they have a policy similar to the Welsh, where they find these young talents at 16, 17, 18, and tie them early? In Woodburn, Ampadu, and Brooks Wales have potentially guaranteed a competitive side for the next 10 years. None of these were Welsh born. Something has gone dreadfully wrong with the Irish youth set-up over the past 15 years.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

Wales have done it extremely successfully.
There are lessons to be learned from the top down in the FAI. Should they have a policy similar to the Welsh, where they find these young talents at 16, 17, 18, and tie them early? In Woodburn, Ampadu, and Brooks Wales have potentially guaranteed a competitive side for the next 10 years. None of these were Welsh born. Something has gone dreadfully wrong with the Irish youth set-up over the past 15 years.

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what has woodburn done since his decent few weeks in autumn 2017?
brooks is quality but ampudu is far from proven. neither was capped in a game of any great importance by wales.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

what has woodburn done since his decent few weeks in autumn 2017?
brooks is quality but ampudu is far from proven. neither was capped in a game of any great importance by wales.

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Woodburn isn't the best example although he's probably got a similar amount of international goals as Shane Long.

If I need to emphasis my point I'll add Daniel James at Swansea and Tyler Roberts at Leeds. Also stick Rabbi Matondo who joined Schalke for £10m in the summer. They're doing a far better job than we are. If, as it seems, the FAI want to recruit second and third generation players, they're doing a very poor job of it.

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Originally Posted by livehead1

Woodburn isn't the best example although he's probably got a similar amount of international goals as Shane Long.

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1 vs longs 17 for Ireland

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Originally Posted by livehead1

There are lessons to be learned from the top down in the FAI. Should they have a policy similar to the Welsh, where they find these young talents at 16, 17, 18, and tie them early? In Woodburn, Ampadu, and Brooks Wales have potentially guaranteed a competitive side for the next 10 years. None of these were Welsh born. Something has gone dreadfully wrong with the Irish youth set-up over the past 15 years.

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I definitely agree that the FAI should adopt a policy similar to Wales. They need to smarten up re capping younger talent and weeding out those who are humming and hawing about playing for us at senior level. Call dual national lads up early and secure them or call their bluff. If they choose to opt out they should no longer be picked. The Jack Grealish saga was bad enough but this one really takes the biscuit altogether and definitely calls on the FAI to review the entire situation.

Am I right in thinking that if he changes allegiances to England through FIFA, there's no coming back?

So it would be entirely possible that he could end up never being capped by England, but also unable to return to Ireland?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Am I right in thinking that if he changes allegiances to England through FIFA, there's no coming back?

So it would be entirely possible that he could end up never being capped by England, but also unable to return to Ireland?

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That is my understanding, once the paperwork is complete, he can only represent England from then on.

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Originally Posted by TrapAPony

Ireland need to start weeding out these dual national lads early on. For instance, Conor Coventry (just an example) at West Ham should be called up to the Senior squad and if he refuses then out he goes.

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He's probably the next in line.
Once the U19 campaign is over - he should be called up to the senior team, if he turns it down then his place in the U21s can go to someone else.

His connection to Ireland is closer than Rice & Grealish. Coventry's mother is Irish according to wikipedia.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

1 vs longs 17 for Ireland

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I had meant to say in the last two years. Having checked it I think its closer to three.

Try not to get too hung-up on Ben Woodburn, I mean, you don't work for the FAI recruitment team...

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

That is my understanding, once the paperwork is complete, he can only represent England from then on.

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Which would probably imply the double-whammy of an upcoming England call-up so. Otherwise, no need to go actively sending in paperwork. (Though appreciate there's a time lag to process)

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Originally Posted by IsMiseSean

He's probably the next in line.
Once the U19 campaign is over - he should be called up to the senior team, if he turns it down then his place in the U21s can go to someone else.

His connection to Ireland is closer than Rice & Grealish. Coventry's mother is Irish according to wikipedia.

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As far as I know his mother is from Kilkenny (stand to be corrected, but she's definitely Irish), Will Smallbone's mother is also from there.

Hopefully the Irish mammy can work to good effect in these cases so.

In the case of Rice, it was his mother's side that wanted him to play for England. (a bit of FB snooping will verify that)

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

we cant cheapen caps in the way you suggest

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I'm not sure I'd agree with this for a few reasons.

1) Does it cheapen a cap that much by having him play 30 seconds in a game that's already been won Vs Moldova. We are not talking about players starting and playing the full 90 mins against say France in the Euros

2) With the situation like Rice you risk cheapening the caps anyway. He's cheapened three caps by now effectively making himself an ineligible player.

3) Rice and Grealish have eaten up places in our under age squads (and with Rice also the senior squad) for years and now it transpires that both no longer intend to play for us. This has robbed other genuine players of significant chunks of development and experience and that is likely to do far more damage to Irish football than locking down a waverer by throwing them on for 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I'm not sure I'd agree with this for a few reasons.

1) Does it cheapen a cap that much by having him play 30 seconds in a game that's already been won Vs Moldova. We are not talking about players starting and playing the full 90 mins against say France in the Euros

2) With the situation like Rice you risk cheapening the caps anyway. He's cheapened three caps by now effectively making himself an ineligible player.

3) Rice and Grealish have eaten up places in our under age squads (and with Rice also the senior squad) for years and now it transpires that both no longer intend to play for us. This has robbed other genuine players of significant chunks of development and experience and that is likely to do far more damage to Irish football than locking down a waverer by throwing them on for 30 seconds.

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Exactly.
They won't take the cap anyway if they are wavering, its a free fix.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I'm not sure I'd agree with this for a few reasons.

1) Does it cheapen a cap that much by having him play 30 seconds in a game that's already been won Vs Moldova. We are not talking about players starting and playing the full 90 mins against say France in the Euros

2) With the situation like Rice you risk cheapening the caps anyway. He's cheapened three caps by now effectively making himself an ineligible player.

3) Rice and Grealish have eaten up places in our under age squads (and with Rice also the senior squad) for years and now it transpires that both no longer intend to play for us. This has robbed other genuine players of significant chunks of development and experience and that is likely to do far more damage to Irish football than locking down a waverer by throwing them on for 30 seconds.

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Was going to post something similar to this. It actually doesn’t cheapen caps at all, instead it places a considerable up front value on a career in green.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

How anyone can be proud to be English especially in football I cannot fathom.

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Seriously? They only invented the game. And I think they won the World Cup as well. We would never be proud of those achievements, now would we?
An awful lot of crying over spilled milk right now.

When the going gets tough the tough usually get going, so why are we whinging like babies right now?
I wish Declan Rice all the best in the remainder of his career, except when he plays against Ireland.
After that I won't give it a second thought. Get on with it, start developing our own talent, start importing some South American and African youth coaches and lets polish our own diamonds.

This should be a turning point in Irish football, where we can finally say we learned our lesson from the Declan Rice saga.
But you know we won't, we'll still be playing hoofball in 20 years time. And Rice will look back in 20 years time at us, and say to himself that he made the correct decision.

I've forgotten about him already. I don't wish him ill and I certainly don't wish him well. Offering the latter is just a move away from lying down and letting him p*ss in your mouth.

Anyway...I hope the whole debacle acts as a wake up call for the FAI on how the 'get out of jail free card' the granny rule provides can no longer be relied upon.

I wouldn't despair about the future either, whatever about the present. There's some really eye-catching young talent in that 16 to 21 age bracket.