I wouldn't revise the Euro 2012 qualification campaign: it was hairy enough at the time and it's still hairy enough now in retrospect. It was a weak group at the time and it still is. Getting Estonia was a lucky break then and now. It's not revisionism. Look at Armenia, Slovakia and Estonia's results so far this time around.
We haven't played a 'big game' since the Stade de France, and that's three years ago.
Now that it has settled down, that was a privilege to watch - Ozil truly truly magnificient - it was a genuinely beautiful performance by Germany - will remember it for years - they were truly excellent - now, we were awful, but it was mesmeric
This is the sort of scoreline I always expected in the early Charlton years but it never actually came. And through the McCarthy and Kerr years we continued to be a team that was hard to beat, we didn't actually beat very many good teams but we usually forced a stalemate. Our success has largely being good at not getting beaten if we're honest with ourselves.
The Euro results were a surprise despite the fact the players were obviously modest, Trapp seemed to have a Charlton like system to hide the weaknesses.
But there is a danger in over-reacting to this result, in the last game we were lucky to win but what was most depressing to me was how the lowly opposition were clearly technically better, Aiden McGeady is the only decent technical player we have. Nothing has changed in the past 20 years in terms of player development, we have more players but it seems the coaching in England hasn't improved a whole lot either. As most good Irish kids will still go abroad pretty early, are there lasting results in the FAI investing more money in making the kids technically better at a younger age? Will this be lost or stagnated when they move the the youth system in English clubs?
But for this game like any other you can break it down to
Preparation
Motivation
Selection
Tactics
Execution
I think we get a fail mark on each of those areas for this game, this was effectively close to a second string team making it all the more important for the coaching staff to get it right and clearly they did not, Tapp must take most of the blame.
It's also clear that without the missing players we have a very serious leadership problem on the pitch.
We allowed the Germans to dictate the pace of the game and for much of it, it was like a training ground practice. We rolled over big time, there are no excuses for a performance like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Can use use emoticons so I can sure you're being sarcastic please?
I'm still hurting today. So far, I've just been able to read articles from various newspapers about how horrible yesterday was. The whole thing has left me kind of empty.
Honestly, I feel like Trap managed to delay the implosion of the Stan era for the WC 2010 campaign. When the successful Euro 2012 campaign finished, there were reservations, sure, but the results were what we needed so it was fine.
Now, I'm not sure where to go. I'd never wish defeat on an Irish team, but perhaps losing to the Faroes (which is a possibility) would make letting Trap go easier. It pains me to say it, but it needs to happen.
I kind of think that we need to make a cut off point of no players selected over 30 for our outfield players, and try and build for the Euro 2016 Qualifiers (It's a 24 team tournament, so we should make it).
Yes, the team is limited, but no so limited as to be destroyed by Germany like that.
A long time ago, I remember posting that although results were decent, there seemed to be no training of what to do with the ball when we have it. Players passing out of habit rather than having any idea what to do with the ball. Even the passing against Oman seemed very basic.
Time for a new system, new coach. Time to emphasize youth. If the Euros taught us anything, it's that simply getting to a major tournament is not enough. The humiliation of the last few months shows this. We need to have a national team that we have some pride in.
Honestly, I haven't felt so shaken in a long time. The Euros were bad, but this was at home. This was Landsdowne.
Big teams used to fear coming to Dublin. Our home form has been horrid for some time.
This reminded me of the trouncing that Germany received at home at the hands of England under Kevin Keegan I think, they lost 5-1. That was a turning point for Germany and they made radical changes and the German team we see today is in large part down to that result.
We've had the Genesis report which was largely ignored, we had the horror defeat away to Cyprus. We've had a very disappointing Euro tourney and now this result. We need real and visible change well beyond a change of coach.
that's it. Hit the nail right on the head. You don't need to say anymore. And those on this message board need to sit up and pay attention to this statement, and start demanding better of our coaching system.Quote:
Originally Posted by qwerty
Forget trap and this team - they are a lost generation. We need to start bringing in south american or even african coaches to ireland (i've said it a million times on here). Teach the kids the technical brilliance of even the most average players in chile, colombia etc (ffs look at uruguay - a country of 3.5 million who produced cavani, suarez, forlan, coates, hernandez and many others). Then our kids become a commodity to be reckoned with. Sell them on to (hopefully, please god, to a country other than the graveyard which is england) and plough the money back into our youth system.
Let me tell you i have seen plenty of football over this weekend and there have been better performances from antigua, el salvador, kazakstan, iceland. Ireland are at a stage now where, if you were showing a child images of football teams in a picture book, they wouldn't even qualify to be called one.
Let's get this thing fixed now or we'll be singing this song for the rest of our lives.
Maybe the problem is we have not been hoofing it enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
How about a much better cut off point, that being that we don't accept more than a couple of sub standard performances. We have players in the team who could practically sit down on a deck chair and read the paper, and still get picked for the next game. O'Shea, Ward, Kilbane before him, Whelan and Andrews (I know Andrews is a favorite with some because of his aggression but his ability as a midfielder is rank). So we reaped what we sowed last night. Allowing mediocrity to prevail in the team for too long. In the end, it's all about coaching and we appear to have no decent coaches in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diarmo
Worth noting that even when we beat Oman 4-1 they had 56% of the possession.
Good point. Who was the last Irish-born manager to make a decent career abroad? Roy Keane not included.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Aside from all the "look I told ye Trap is crazy" triumphalism that some are portraying, the real debate is where do we go from here!??
Financially the FAI cant get rid of Trap. His record is reasonable although after yesterday it is extremely hard to defend the shambolic (although major tournament included) last 6 months. IMO the real concern of Traps era has been our possession statistics. Until latterly, we have looked very organised under trap but it was only in the early days with him that we commanded a midfield presence. The likelihood is the Faroes will command greater possession on Tuesday than us, yes its true.
So the question I ask everyone here now is:
What would you do with current resources to ensure more effective midfield performances from the team? Im not really talking personnel changes here, as so far it doesnt seem to make a difference. And people will throw out the usual Hoolahan, Pilkington, Ireland etc same as a few years ago when it was Andy Reid. We as a footballing nation seem to think our messiah is the one or two players who are excluded. Until they are included and then it doesnt work out so well. Remember last night Coleman and McCarthy played, two players who many were calling for to be included months ago (perhaps with some merit).
Im talking real specific tactical changes. The greatest deficiency in this team is confidence on and retention of the ball. Many times last night our defenders had the ball and frankly they looked petrified in possesion.
Martin O 'Neill!Quote:
Originally Posted by Diarmo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diarmo
Louis Walsh?
And actually why not?
You don't need to be a footballer to be a manager or indeed know anything about football.
If he can take a bunch of eegits like Boyzone to the top he can get us to Brazil!!
Pat WalkerQuote:
Originally Posted by Diarmo
Well you either stick with your man or not. Trap in your opinion was good now he aint - whats the difference? IMHO he was rubbish from day one and I was against his appointment from the beginning - my view hasnt changed but yours has - funny that:DQuote:
Originally Posted by shaneker
I actually fear for us against Faroes.
I disagree. For me, the positives certainly outweighed the negatives in the WC 2010 campaign. We nearly beat Italy at home, and then of course there was Paris.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
In the Euro 2012 Qualifying, there were more negatives, but once again the positives outweighed the negatives as we qualified at last.
Since the Euros however, there have been no positives. None.
I think that Trap was what we needed for the last campaign or two, but that now it's time to say goodbye. We need a coach who can instill some form of tactical plan that is not based on hoofball, that can communicate with our players.
So what if we don't qualify for Brazil? A team of younger players would at least provide hope.
And with Trap, there is no hope. It finally died with Toni Kroos' second goal.
I think you have to remember that that it is the clubs style of play which tends to dictate how players play,
how many players do we have that play anything other than what could loosely be describe as 'hoofball'.
Only one I can think of is Hoolahan.
Who was it who first said, "You can change the shepherd, but you can't get rid of the donkeys" :p
Probably me I guess. I mean I think we have tried to change our style of play to move away from hoofball somewhat
but look at the results, maybe you can change I don't know, Liverpool have tried to change their style of play
and the results have been somewhat unimpressive, It took them six week to get a win, who know how long till they
get the next one? Maybe they have turned the corner and finally adapted, or maybe they will be looking over their shoulders
at relegation?
To finish on a positive, I think we have turned the corner too, in the last 6 minutes when we brought Robbie Brady, on.
Remember we actually won the last 6 minutes!!!
Never forget that ;)
Because the situation has changed. Players have retired. John O'Shea has died and just not realised it yet. Confidence is low. Trap was the right man for the job when he was appointed (although I think the money could have been better spent on a cheaper manager and investment in grassroots and the LOI). Now, perhaps he isn't so suitable. To say he was rubbish from day one is, in my opinion, getting a bit hysterical. The shambles on Friday night doesn't change the fact that he took a very mediocre team to two playoffs and a continental finals they didn't have any right to be at on paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt