Trapattoni - who would you replace him with?

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Originally Posted by brine3

Kerr came closer to winning a qualification group than Trap ever did.

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Trapattoni finished two points behind group winners Russia in qualifying for Euro 2012, and six points behind group winners Italy inthe World Cup 2010 qualifiers
Kerr finished three points behind group winners Frances in the World Cup 2006 qualifiers, and four points behind group winners Switzerland in Euro 2004 qualifiers
But let's not let facts get in the way of an argument

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Originally Posted by brine3

People like to knock Kerr, but that Zizou captained French team went on to lose the World Cup final on penalties. And Kerr, with a tiny bit of luck, might have won the group.

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If by "with a tiny bit of luck" you mean "if he had learned how to hold on to a lead in three games" then yeah, we might have

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

But ya, any half decent manager spotted our strengths and more importanly our weaknesses. They used their most potent force to wonderful effect against our weakest achilles heel, modric/ibra/alaba etc. It shows just how toothless Trap was really. Thats why he has done nothing in 10+ years, as he is too institutionalised in his 70s/80s play and the game has passed him by. His tactics and system are well outdated.

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Jaysus Paul, you were whining on about 'revisionism' in a post yesterday - The above is plain and simple hor$e$hit.

Depressing Euros' admittedly. This wasnt just against 'decent' opposition as you say but actually against the 'best' opposition possible - Two of the finalists ffs. Yes he could have and should have done things differently and the campaign that followed was a disaster but lets keep this in persepctive. The first four years were a relative success.

I was listening to the Dave O'Grady YBIG podcast posted the other day and one of the contributors was saying how he hoped the change of manager would bring about a change in style, back to playing football again on the deck, like back to the Ireland team of the 70's and 80's..........I was thinking, all sounds nice but I dont recall footage of all them tournaments we played in back then? It has to be balanced - absolutely a change in tactics, style and personnel is required but there will always be an element of workmanlike huff and puff to our game plan, I think its just in our DNA.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Brnie3 got me thinking about something, one of the main reasons it all came undone was because, he no longer had duff, and mcgeady wasnt available in the last few games to offer relief.

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I think the absence of Dunne\St Ledger partnership at the back has been the bigger problem. I've not studied the stats but it feels like we have scored enough but conceded more than the previous Trap campaigns.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Didnt do the job for salzburg, which was to get into CL group stage

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Oh right... I presume they stripped the club of their title then as well?

Trap was initially all about being hard to play through and difficult to score against. He was very happy to play without the ball and he was happy to try and nick goals from corners and frees. Most of our important goals in campaign one came this way, often with Hunt providing the delivery.

Over time we became easier to play through, easier to score against and worse with set pieces.

The system long since stopped working and Trap's solution was to play more primitive football, trying to outmuscle defenders in their last quarter of the pitch.

There were distinct phases of Trap's tenure: the phase where things worked and the phase where they clearly didn't. The reluctance to offer anything to address the latter phase (such as dropping Whelan) is why he had to go.


Junior, you're right. There'll always be some huff and puff, but under Jack there was also quite a bit of quality thrown in too. We were far more than the Crazy Gang of the international scene. Mick, Kerr and Stan all played a bit more of a passing game and I think it was only Trap that ever played outright hoofball.

None of the popular analysis accepts that there are questions of degrees in all this. We don't aspire to be Spain, but we can aspire to something better than the drivel of the last 12 months. The only quality we have seen was from a player like Hoolahan - Poland and Georgia for example. Did Trap take any note?

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Originally Posted by brine3

There have been times when Robbie was out of form and shouldn't have been picked.

No player in the Irish team should have a throne. We should field the best XI at our disposal at the time.

This is pretty basic stuff really.

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and who exactly was showing better form for club or country during these alleged dips in form?

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Originally Posted by brine3

?? Are you familiar with football?
When a player is out of form, lacking in confidence and his club is trying to push him out the door, the simple things can start to go wrong.

Footballers are human beings.

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yes, thats how i could see both instances were a dreadful waste.

its gas how its always 100% the managers fault and every excuse is thought up to preclude the players from blame

I thought Long had a shocker all round against Sweden. Even unprofessional at times. I wouldn't shy away from being critical of a player.

Ya he looked a bit disinterested or preoccupied at times, keane was in there, but i suppose having played that long for ireland holding the ball up he wasnt used to having keane or anyone in there at the precise moment he got the ball, I definitely think that had a big part to play in it. It was still so frustrating to watch though. I can't believe keane didnt completely bollick him out of it.

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

and who exactly was showing better form for club or country during these alleged dips in form?



yes, thats how i could see both instances were a dreadful waste.

its gas how its always 100% the managers fault and every excuse is thought up to preclude the players from blame

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If Trap had been following our players then he'd know that Long was out of form and that West Brom were trying to get rid of him. He'd also know that Walters was the man in form. If his tactic was to play hoofball against tall Swedish defenders, then you'd think the more physical (and in form) Walters would be the player to put up front.

It's never the manager's fault in your book, even when he makes farcical decisions.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Oh right... I presume they stripped the club of their title then as well?

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I'm interested to know your opinion on last years Austrian and Portuguese championship winning managers and their various football styles (without goggling), please tell
I dont know myself but then I dont READ football!:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by brine3

If Trap had been following our players then he'd know that Long was out of form and that West Brom were trying to get rid of him. He'd also know that Walters was the man in form. If his tactic was to play hoofball against tall Swedish defenders, then you'd think the more physical (and in form) Walters would be the player to put up front.

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He'd have seen Long score a lovely goal at Wembley, cause a lot of trouble but squander chances against Georgia and Wales. He'd have seen Walters miss yet another penalty at Anfield and not score from open play this season, squandering a few good chances on the way. I must have missed the sparkling form that Walters has been in at his club. Trap would have seen that while playing hoofball against Austria that Long was our best player.

International managers do not drop club players based on a couple of weeks of bad form at club level. Very often players relish international football if their club situation isn't great. Picking him was not a grave error.

Long just played rubbish on the night, that's all.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

I'm interested to know your opinion on last years Austrian and Portuguese championship winning managers and their various football styles (without goggling), please tell
I dont know myself but then I dont READ football!:rolleyes:

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I will admit completely that I didn't know of Trap's title wins in Portugal and Austria from memory. I responded to a claim he had done 'nothing' in the last ten years, when clearly winning two domestic titles is significantly more than nothing. All the more impressive, as Wiki informs me, that both titles were achieved in his first season with the clubs and neither side had won the league in a decade or more.

Nothing wrong with doing a bit of research and getting your facts correct before spouting nonsense.

Oh, and I haven't the faintest idea what kind of football Trap played with either side, but it obviously worked. Why do you want to know about last year's managers? Is that in some way relevant to the facts presented on what Trap has done over the past ten years? And how are you so sure that winning a first title in over a decade wasn't the main aim of Salzburg when they hired Trap... that anything less than Champions League group stage qualification wasn't acceptable? Perhaps you read it somewhere.

The Austrian league is hardly much to go by. I doubt managers Pat Fenlon is being reverred around the world for winning the LOI for example.

Portugese fair enough. He did 1 good thing bar get us to beat an estonian team away 4-1, who shat themselves when it mattered in 10 years, well done.

Lots of Trap haters seem to be seeing things in a very black-and-white way, yes, he made mistakes, yes, he played some unattractive football, no, he probably didn't get the team to play to their full potential, but he's not the ****ing antichrist, not everything he did has to be revised and made into an abject failure just because you don't like the guy. He came in, he did a solid but ultimately flawed job, which probably didn't merit the huge wages he was on. The Trap fanfiction people write in which he sits at home picking his hole and watching one DVD of Glenn Whelan each week is just as stupid as those who say he achieved miracles with Ireland and we had no right to qualify for the Euros at all.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

The Austrian league is hardly much to go by. I doubt managers Pat Fenlon is being reverred around the world for winning the LOI for example.

Portugese fair enough. He did 1 good thing bar get us to beat an estonian team away 4-1, who shat themselves when it mattered in 10 years, well done.

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He was manager of a team in the Austrian league. His side won that league. Accept it is an achievement and move on. Is the Austrian league comparable to LOI? I dont know but I suspect its of a better standard as you generally see a few sides competing in the Europa league at least. Neil Lennon has won a couple of SPL titles (a league which is no great shakes as you know) and no doubt Premiership Clubs will take note when a vacancy arises.

Getting beat by France in a play off (no embarassment) and qualifying for the Euro's were achievements. Stop rewriting the record books, Traps gone now. Oh and didnt we won 4-0 in Tallin anyway? ;)

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

The Trap fanfiction people write in which he sits at home picking his hole and watching one DVD of Glenn Whelan each week is just as stupid as those who say he achieved miracles with Ireland and we had no right to qualify for the Euros at all.

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The FAI had to tell him, after the 6-1 drubbing by Germany, that he needed to start watching more matches in person.

This is the manager who banished a player from the squad based on mistaken identity. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by brine3

It's never the manager's fault in your book, even when he makes farcical decisions.

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look back at my trap related posts for the last 14 months and you will find plenty of criticism.

the blame for this campaign was down to some poor management decisions, injury to key players, poor individual performances, player retirement and lack of quality replacements. throw any manager into that and i doubt results would have been much better

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Originally Posted by brine3

The FAI had to tell him, after the 6-1 drubbing by Germany, that he needed to start watching more matches in person.

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This is the same FAI who hired Steve Staunton. I don't think their opinions are infallible.

And Trap could have spent 18 hours a day analysing DVD footage of all of Ireland's players in minute detail. He could also have spent twenty minutes watching Match of the Day hoping to catch a glimpse of Keith Andrews in the corner of a shot. We don't know, and anyone who says we do is making stuff up to suit their own agenda.

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This is the manager who banished a player from the squad based on mistaken identity. Seriously.

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Allegedly.

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

Allegedly.

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:D
It's pretty desperate when someone has to repeat the wayward insane ramblings of Dunphy, in order to take a pot at Trap.

I admire your blind loyalty to a manager that has us playing hoofball and under whom we continually get humiliated on the pitch.