Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by pete

Ireland never had any power in the EU in voting terms but still our politicians were able to negotiate deals on EU funds. We got significantly more per capita than other poorer countries at the time. EU funds built half our infrastructure which for example can drive Dublin-Cork in 2.5/3 hours as opposed to 5+ hours.

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Funding has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty. It has everything to do with power, and in our case, less of it.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Funding has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty. It has everything to do with power, and in our case, less of it.

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i posted on here a while back, but i have to say i know plenty of people who would pretty much see themselves as european who would reject the treaty.

First it was the French, now the Germans are in on the act:

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He reportedly made pointed references to those who “complain about other nations fishing in their waters. . . and forget who pays their milk subsidies”.

“A second No would have horrific consequences for Ireland and I am not the first to say it. I don’t think there is anything particularly new in that.”

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http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...243126493.html

The Lisbon Treaty has nothing to do with milk subsidies or payments of any description, to say it does is lieing. :mad:

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Originally Posted by mypost

The Lisbon Treaty has nothing to do with milk subsidies or payments of any description, to say it does is lieing. :mad:

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It has nothing to do with conscription, abortion or tax harmonisation either but that won't stop some anti Lisbon nut jobs using that as an arguement either.

Good news during the week, as unlike here, the Czech government was voted out of office, due to their economic crisis. It also holds up the ratification of the Treaty there a bit longer, and delays Cowen and Martin's show "guarantees" in order to force us to vote again. :)

While EU leaders will whinge that the collapse is an example of their issues with the rotating presidency, the fact remains that most governments can fold at any time, and it's merely a coincidence that the Czech one should fall while holding the Presidency. Also, the Prime Minister of the Czech Republic remains holder of the Presidency, and this event should not be used as a stick to beat other countries with, who are due to have their turn at it in time.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/21676

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Originally Posted by mypost

Good news during the week, as unlike here, the Czech government was voted out of office, due to their economic crisis. It also holds up the ratification of the Treaty there a bit longer, and delays Cowen and Martin's show "guarantees" in order to force us to vote again. :)

While EU leaders will whinge that the collapse is an example of their issues with the rotating presidency, the fact remains that most governments can fold at any time, and it's merely a coincidence that the Czech one should fall while holding the Presidency. Also, the Prime Minister of the Czech Republic remains holder of the Presidency, and this event should not be used as a stick to beat other countries with, who are due to have their turn at it in time.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/21676

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Governing through a "having your turn approach" is about as childish as it comes. Whether its a coincidence or not is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is that the EU will be directionally rudderless at a time when there are lots of issues that need addressing, such as financial regulation, the operations of the ECB going forward etc.

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Originally Posted by mypost

While EU leaders will whinge that the collapse is an example of their issues with the rotating presidency, the fact remains that most governments can fold at any time, and it's merely a coincidence that the Czech one should fall while holding the Presidency. Also, the Prime Minister of the Czech Republic remains holder of the Presidency, and this event should not be used as a stick to beat other countries with, who are due to have their turn at it in time.

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It highlights a big flaw in the rotation Presidency. The Presidency drives discussion & agreement on issue for their 6 months but now it is like a pause until Czech decide what they want.

The EU continues to function, while that process is ongoing. The issues that must be addressed, will be addressed.

Next week's Czech-USA summit goes ahead as planned.

I've always thought that 6 months was a very short term for a presidency. There's no way a country-based presidency should be as long as a person-based one, but sure nothing gets resolved in the political arena in 6 months.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I've always thought that 6 months was a very short term for a presidency. There's no way a country-based presidency should be as long as a person-based one, but sure nothing gets resolved in the political arena in 6 months.

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Presidency incurs a huge extra cost for the country holding it. Both in terms of actual money spent and man hours. Some of the smaller countries simply couldn't afford to hold it for more than 6 months

Didn't realise it was paid for by the individual states. The obvious answer is for the EU to fund it. I would have thought it should have been that way from the outset.

I don't think it's something the EU could pay for. A small country pretty much goes ungoverned for 6 months during the presidency. There's no practical way that the EU could pay a country to have a second civil service for the term.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I've always thought that 6 months was a very short term for a presidency. There's no way a country-based presidency should be as long as a person-based one, but sure nothing gets resolved in the political arena in 6 months.

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Ireland's last Presidency was one of the most successful of recent times. One of the least was Italy's 6 months before. If they had it for 2 and a half years, with the damage Berlusconi caused and was capable of causing, it would have taken years for EU diplomatic relations to recover. That's the safety net of what the 6 month system allows.

We've had 6 EU Presidency's. Despite the costs and our small nation status, we've handled them well. It has allowed us to make key EU appointments, raise our influence, and host important summits. We shouldn't have to give that up, because the big states want to centralise the whole operation.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Presidency incurs a huge extra cost for the country holding it. Both in terms of actual money spent and man hours. Some of the smaller countries simply couldn't afford to hold it for more than 6 months

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Anecdotally the feeling I got from Slovenians it felt too much of a burden during their presidency and detracted from effective national governance.

usual good stuff from Kerrgian in the Indo today saying that maybe the government should ask the Eu for money in return for getting a yes vote - not a bad idea:)

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

usual good stuff from Kerrgian in the Indo today saying that maybe the government should ask the Eu for money in return for getting a yes vote - not a bad idea:)

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Haven't they already given us something like 30-50 billion over the years?

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Originally Posted by pete

Haven't they already given us something like 30-50 billion over the years?

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true, but then we also could talk about them nicking our fish:p

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Originally Posted by mypost

We've had 6 EU Presidency's. Despite the costs and our small nation status, we've handled them well. It has allowed us to make key EU appointments

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What key appointments have been made during Ireland's presidency?

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Originally Posted by pete

Haven't they already given us something like 30-50 billion over the years?

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Is that net (no pun intended) of the extensive fishing rights we gave up? Farmers and roads paid for by our fishing industry...

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Originally Posted by Macy

Is that net (no pun intended) of the extensive fishing rights we gave up? Farmers and roads paid for by our fishing industry...

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I know the value of fish industry is commonly used by some to suggest the EU haven't given us much money but cou;ld we really sustain an economy with fish? Are there other similar countries making billions from fish?

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Originally Posted by pete

I know the value of fish industry is commonly used by some to suggest the EU haven't given us much money but cou;ld we really sustain an economy with fish? Are there other similar countries making billions from fish?

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Iceland? :D It's worth enough that some scandinavian's didn't join the EU... I'm not saying it's a total break even, but it was a significant contribution made by Ireland. Now if only the Irish Navy were as hard on foreign fleets as they are on our own, maybe it wouldn't have had such an impact.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Iceland? :D It's worth enough that some scandinavian's didn't join the EU....

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Times are good there now? ;)

Norway have a lot of fish but I am sure the oil is some important.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

usual good stuff from Kerrgian in the Indo today saying that maybe the government should ask the Eu for money in return for getting a yes vote - not a bad idea:)

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They can throw 3 billion, 30 billion, or 300 billion of Monopoly Money, in order to buy a Yes vote off us, but my vote is not for sale. My voice is more important to me than the size of my wallet. The government is responsible for our economic crisis, it is responsible to get us out of it. Ratifying Lisbon won't.

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Originally Posted by macy

Is that net (no pun intended) of the extensive fishing rights we gave up?

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Was down in Arklow Harbour last Autumn, where the fishermen made it very clear why they would reject the treaty, displaying their anger on blackboards at the EU's fisheries policy.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

What key appointments have been made during Ireland's presidency?

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Any answer yet mypost?

Pete, I don't know if it's even vaguely fair to compare, but this link gives Japan's 2003 fishing industry as outputting US$14 billion gross. That's a lotta tuna.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Any answer yet mypost?

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Barroso was appointed as European Commission President under our last term in charge. 10 new countries were welcomed into the EU in the Phoenix Park.
At the end of the Presidency, Ireland's EU Commissioner was given one of the most important EU positions, with responsibility for the Internal Market.

In February, the WCQ fixture list was arranged in Dublin, specifically because of holding the Presidency at the time, which contributed to a more favourable fixture list for us.

Libertas and SIPO:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...243934744.html

Spotlight on Caroline Simons and Libertas

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...245071285.html

Caroline is a solicitor, and can quote random lines from the Treaty all day, but unlike Declan, isn't the best debater in the world. She'll face a difficult campaign to get elected, in the toughest constituency to get across anti-Treaty views.

Reform Libertas Executive Director defects to Yes side

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IRELAND DOES not have the luxury of a second No vote in the Lisbon Treaty referendum and voters should vote Yes, one of the architects of last year’s Libertas campaign has said.

Naoise Nunn, who resigned as executive director of Libertas last September said: “The circumstances have changed: internationally, economically, financially and domestically.

“We don’t have the luxury of doing anything else. I am glad that we had a referendum. We were the only member state to do so, to have a proper debate, or something like a proper debate,” Mr Nunn told The Irish Times .

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That should read "former" or "ex-" Libertas director. Come on pete, I hate Libertas as much as the next guy but you are misleading with that one.

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Originally Posted by pete

The circumstances have changed: internationally, economically, financially and domestically.

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Apart from this case, I find that it's usually women are a lot more open to changing minds, and demanding collective "political unity" to deal with current situation, conveniently forgetting that we live in a democracy, there is a democratic process to go through, and final decisions to be made.

The circumstances haven't changed much from June. We were in recession then, now, and after the next ref. It is temporary. If ratified, Lisbon is permanent.

No means No.

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Originally Posted by superfrank

That should read "former" or "ex-" Libertas director. Come on pete, I hate Libertas as much as the next guy but you are misleading with that one.

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Edited.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Apart from this case, I find that it's usually women are a lot more open to changing minds, and demanding collective "political unity" to deal with current situation, conveniently forgetting that we live in a democracy, there is a democratic process to go through, and final decisions to be made.

The circumstances haven't changed much from June. We were in recession then, now, and after the next ref. It is temporary. If ratified, Lisbon is permanent.

No means No.

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Since you are so keen on the democratic process being followed, can you point me to where in the Constitution it says decisions made are final?

You can use previous referenda on divorce and Europe as examples.

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Originally Posted by pete

Reform Libertas Executive Director defects to Yes side

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Ganley's response

Have we had any figures released by Libertas as to the sources of their funding - as Ganley promised?

Surely if they have nothing to hide as they said - then we'd have seen something...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...245598813.html

...So it took seven months from the time of asking Declan Ganley to provide details of loan agreements and repayment schedules for him to provide confirmation that Libertas is indeed a one-man show. I'd say that Irish politics needs an operator like this about as much as it needs a bad dose of the clap -but I supppose one in -all in. :rolleyes:

Anyone know how much one of them More-O'Farrell advertisement hoardings costs to rent for a given period of time? I counted SIX of them featuring Ganleys Libertas between Limerick and Ennis on the N18 last weekend.

That Simons one that is running in Dublin has her name and face everywhere too. They seem to have an ad on every single bus in the city.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

...So it took seven months from the time of asking Declan Ganley to provide details of loan agreements and repayment schedules for him to provide confirmation that Libertas is indeed a one-man show.

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True but after several tribunals we're still trying to get to the bottom of where FF's money came from.

Yeah Libertas are shady, but its a bit pot/kettle for FF to point the finger isn't it?

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

True but after several tribunals we're still trying to get to the bottom of where FF's money came from.

Yeah Libertas are shady, but its a bit pot/kettle for FF to point the finger isn't it?

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Absolutely true, but just because we've come to expect no better from them is no reason to just accept it as the modus operandi for anyone in the field. Which is why I said...

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

... I'd say that Irish politics needs an operator like this about as much as it needs a bad dose of the clap -but I supppose one in -all in. :rolleyes:
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