It's literally there in the bit where I start 'The problem with saying "Let's do what Sweden did" is...'
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
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It's literally there in the bit where I start 'The problem with saying "Let's do what Sweden did" is...'
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Genuinely struggling to make the connection. Yeah there are a load of incongruities within the club structure that may differ from Sweden, but we’re talking about merging clubs to create a viable and sustainable league. It may not solve every problem in the game at every level, but it’s the only way we will develop a league that can compete in Europe and develop players for the national team.
It's kind of hard to really engage in a debate if you don't actively address any of the points being made tbh.
Yes, there are issues with Irish football. I agree the standard isn't great and I've argued against LoI fans here in terms of player call-ups to the national team for example.
But I don't see how merging clubs is going to solve anything while the huge structural issues - not just the pyramid, though it's the most important one in terms of spicing up the new league and helping focus on new population areas (which was your suggestion, albeit in an unnatural way), but also prize money, TV deals, underage setups (being addressed in fairness) and so on.
You say "It may not solve every problem in the game at every level, but it’s the only way we will develop a league that can compete in Europe and develop players for the national team", but you haven't said how it will solve any problems, and it's not true that it's the only way the league will develop player for the national team because we saw, in the cash-rich 00s, that the LoI did start developing players for the national team, even with both Dundalk and Drogheda in the league. It still didn't do great, but it was improving when the (inevitable) crash happened, and it's never really recovered since.
There is merit in merging clubs, but I don't see it at the top level. The likes of, say, Mullingar Athletic and Mullingar Town would be a better bet. But without an adequate structure for them to improve up through, what's the point? That's why, for me, the structure is the most important thing at the moment, and why the Swedish example just isn't relevant here at the moment.
I don’t think it will solve all the problems as I said, and to be fair you make a lot of decent points about the dysfunctional structures at every level, but I guess we’re going back to Sweden. Let’s imagine there are only two clubs in Dublin, you immediately pool the best players, and increase the potential supporter catchment. A better team playing in a better league with less local competition attracts more supporters = more revenue, which attracts more investment, improving facilities, attracting more supporters, generating even more revenue, investing in better players, improving the product and so on and so on. It’s what can happen when you start from the right place. We’re in the wrong place. Too many small clubs competing in the same geography, poor facilities, low standard of product, few spectators, inadequate revenue, little investment, viscous circle.
If there’s another way, I’d love to know what it is. I think we all want the same outcome - a better international team and Irish clubs competing (really competing) in Europe.
But that's very idealistic. Why would you risk the biggest clubs in the league? You're genuinely risking alienating the biggest fan groups in the league for something which may or may not have any impact.
Also, if you generate say, Bohbourne and Shamrock Athletic, do you end with a stronger league? You've removed two Premier sides and you promote two First Division sides. Unless they take the Shelhemians/St Pat's Rovers players (and will they go to Galway/UCD/Treaty?), then you end up with a weaker league, not a stronger one.
Also, don't knock local competition. Derby games are big draws. Local competition is important in the LoI.
Poor facilities, low standard, few spectators, inadequate revenue, little investment - sure. But if you create Bohemians, the FAI will still be broke and people will still watch TV football and you'll still have all those problems.
Gothenburg is of tradition a three team city; IFK, ÖIS and GAIS. The current "top team" in the city is another team called Häcken. Add to these four are a couple of smaller clubs in the third tier of the pyramid system. Gothenburg is about half Dublin's size.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
What worked in Sweden btw? Not understanding the mentions of Sweden in the last pages.
But who do they play ?Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
All the population center clubs on the other coast take it in turns to completely implode, From Derry to Waterford and all between them at regular intervals. There is no overall fix potential in this proposal & it punishes clubs who have demonstrated durability at LOI level over the long haul, we need more of those, not less.
The Dublin scenario is for instance not a complete solution. You would need to start with a fresh slate, not simply promote teams to take the place of merged ones. There’s no gradualist solution for what’s broken. I hate the word and the idea of franchises, but in a way that is the model. The starting point has got to be a viable business model, because that is what football today is based on.
But it's not - Kildare County and Sporting Fingal were franchises set up explicitly to target population gaps in the LoI, and they barely lasted 15 years between them before going bust with minimal traction in the stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
What are you suggesting will be different this time?
Merging clubs - third policeman is suggesting merging (say) Bohs/Shels, Pat's/Rovers, Dundalk/Drogheda will significantly improve the LoI.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
[QUOTE=pineapple stu;2093606]But it's not - Kildare County and Sporting Fingal were franchises set up explicitly to target population gaps in the LoI, and they barely lasted 15 years between them before going bust with minimal traction in the stands.
What are you suggesting will be different this time?
It’s not about gaps, it’s about viable catchments to support viable clubs. Those examples are irrelevant and actually make my pint. They were adding to the congestion and unsustainability of what’s already not working.
The thing that could make this work is novelty. It’s new, ambitious and configured on a sound and sustainable business model. It could therefore attract sponsorship, investment, media contracts that the LOI can’t and hasn’t. The LOI is appealing to a tiny demographic of diehards. It’s been struggling for decades, and by the way, you still haven’t suggested an alternative solution.
Kildare absolutely was a gap. One of the most populous counties in Ireland without a senior side.
If you don't want to take Fingal, then what about Monaghan or Kilkenny? Wexford have hardly done great things since joining the league. Tralee's experience was a disaster. All effectively franchises. None of that backs up your point.
And novelty? Come off it. The LoI was relaunched and rebranded in 2007. Nothing happened. Novelty is a nothing argument. It also wears off quickly.
As for an alternative solution - I have suggested the FAI increase prize money (while acknowledging they're broke at the moment). I have suggested clubs put better long-term strategic planning in place to avoid Shels/Dundalk-style wasting of funds with nothing to show. I have suggested a proper pyramid system to help encourage new clubs to push themselves - extending the pyramid has churned up the lower leagues in England and Scotland in recent years, which is good.
But you seem to think there's a quick fix. There's not.
Ok. Obviously a non-runner for anyone with a vested interest in established clubs (Ireland or elsewhere). Not sure what the example of merged clubs in Sweden is. Östersund, maybe? But that was the equivalent of junior clubs joining forces in a city covered in snow and darkness half the year. Not a (sustainable) success story either.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The biggest thing we can learn from Sweden is probably the municipal support for sport there. Ireland doesn't understand the value to society of what economists call public goods
Basically we know the price of everything, the value of nothing.
Using a country that didn't re-align and merge its tops clubs as an example of same when discussing the LOI is new departure for me I must say.
"But it worked in Sweden" - what worked in Sweden? I am 100% confused
I can’t see that working to be honest. It’s all sensible stuff but predicated on the FAI being able to make it happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I accept that the merger/ franchise/ start again option is never going to happen, so we might as well both get back to facing reality and living in an imperfect world.
Thanks for the argument.
It's definitely predicated on the FAI being able to make it happen. That's what they're the governing body of football for, though. Bohbourne isn't going anywhere without more general LoI support from the FAI either.
The comments from ifk/RAM/Stutts are interesting too - not just on the success of mergers, but also the municipal involvement. OK, a lot of clubs here have rent-free or peppercorn rent deals on their grounds, but that's about it in terms of support. It's much more active elsewhere afaik.
I remember your good post about this previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
But would add there is a different taxation system + governance in Sweden, there is a local tax levy so Swedish municipalities probably have more financial muscle? And then, the Swedish leaning is more socialist so the concept of public good is more digestible/ understood perhaps.
I think that there isn't really an alternative to football as a summer sport in Sweden has relevance. There's no GAA/ rugby comparable. And added to that, traditional football cities (places likes Malmö, Norrköping, Helsingborg, Borås) do not really have competition from other sports so arguably easier to draw on municipality support. For example, football is really the only show in town when it comes to Malmö. There is an ice hockey team but that's an "imported" sport and doesn't have the tradition of football. There are Malmö teams in the lower divisions of the pyramid system but they are all basically supports to the city's main team in terms of fanbases.
There would be understandable opposition to this, but would mention stadium sharing. The three main teams in Gothenburg play out of the same stadium, 2 teams in Stockholm.
Well on stadium sharing, that's where Bohs/Shels are going anyway.
I had thought there were more mergers in Sweden too - though I wonder was third policeman (as well as myself) thinking of FC Copenhagen instead? Obviously Danish, not Swedish, but similar enough. B1903 were one of the top teams at the time, but KB had dropped down to the second tier, if not the third tier. There's also been mergers in Luxembourg - F91 Dudelange are the best example, but that was a second tier team absorbing two third tier teams, so again not comparable to Bohbourne. (But it is comparable to the example I gave of merging Mullingar Town and Mullingar Athletic, but then you need a pathway for that new team to rise through the leagues if the merger is to make any sense)
Sure, but long process and not there yet. Mention of Pats/ Rovers sharing in the past too that was quickly shot down?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Not really up to speed on the Danish club scene, but yes Copenhagen is the merger of note. Get the sense there is still a strong distaste towards FCK because of this, not just in Denmark but across Scandinavia. There are mergers in Sweden, but not among "traditional powers". Know of two lower level clubs that merged some time back but previous club members broke away and restarted the individual teams at the bottom of the pyramid system - so no love for merging in Sweden.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Yep, but I think the Bohs/Shels thing is more likely to happen. There's a definite timeline (2025 for both to be playing in a redeveloped Dalymount), and there was a first drawdown of funds (€1m this year) which makes it far more tangible than the Rovers/Pat's groundshare ever was.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I cant see the Swedish stuff anywhere
I've no idea where I got that from?
its seems these mergers happen at clubs the whole time, but apologies Sweden is not on the list
List of football club mergers - Wikipedia
And sorry for basing a large part of my argument on it when I didn’t check it out. Even if it didn’t happen in Sweden still think it’s a decent model given where we are and need to be, but enough of that one ……Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
And sorry for basing a large part of my argument on it when I didn’t check it out. Even if it didn’t happen in Sweden still think it’s a decent model given where we are and need to be, but enough of that one ……Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
I think in many areas in life I think it's fair to say we should be more like Sweden :)
Pat Walker gave a great talk at Birkbeck College years ago when I was involved in their Sports Business faculty. I think there was a thread on it here way back "Debate on Youth Dev...". Pat is a Carlow-man, ex-Boez, who made a post-LOI name for himself as player and then manager in Sweden, and whose kids became footballers and one became a media star. Really engaging fella, great life story and a great talk...
This thread: https://foot.ie/threads/174697-Debat...Irish-FootballQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
A Celtic League or Irish-based EPL side will sort it all out.
All this talk about clubs joining together and the news this morning is that Bray and Cabinteely have held talks about a possible merger.
This post sums up quite a lot for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
One failed experiment proves more than any alternative that has been provided. And it's quite a few examples that have been given. It's only Dublin that has a few teams within a single population centre. Everyone else generally represents a much larger area.
Many other countries with similar populations maintain a higher standard league for three main reasons. Facilities, funding and support. Each of the three is lacking in Ireland, and regularly held as a criticism of the league by people who don't attend the league, helping to underfund clubs which in turn curtails investment in facilities.
In terms of attendance, ~30,000 people would be seen as regular attendees of LOI in Ireland on average, or if you must, ~15,000 per game week. It's a long way from being the worst in European football, but always has room for improvement.
Getting to the group stage of Europa League is pretty much the equivalent of winning the world cup for a LOI side. A few million euro in the bank is unprecedented stuff for the majority of sides. Just because it's a drop in the ocean to top European sides, doesn't mean it's still a massive achievement for a smaller league. The LOI isn't alone in this regard.
And the standard isn't good, we know and recognise that ourselves, but maintaining a league equal in standard to League One in England, as suggested by several managers and players who have been involved in both, with a fraction of the budgets and facilities of clubs in League One, shows there's a hell of a lot of potential in football here if people were to get behind it.
Future Ireland manager? Can someone please explain Duff's big issue with the FAI? He said he'd swim the Irish Sea to work at his beloved Celtic but soon returned to embrace the great Stephen Kenny vision. Then he walks again, apparently because of the silly Videogate spat. Now he's vowed to "give his life" to Shelbourne which I welcome in the hope it curtails his turgid, monotone punditry. Duff's senior management journey is beginning to resemble that of his mentor Brian Kerr - all tip and no iceberg.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
Great response. It really annoys me to see the merger/franchise football notion bandied about when it comes to Dublin teams. Talk of merging the top 4 teams is such a nonsense. All it would do is alienate the existing support base of those clubs, to be replaced by who exactly ? You think there are 5/6000 new supporters going to come out to watch these new Frankenstein clubs every week ? Good luck with that one. And without significant support of at least that volume facilities ain’t going to improve either. So all you will have done is kill two of the strongest teams in the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
I don't want to step on toes (well, not when the ref is looking anyway) but aren't many of these clubs, dearly loved by fans of course (and rightly so), legacies of when the LoI was a well supported league? Being much loved is great, having hsitory is great, but it doesn't make the club or the league viable. I'm not for sweeping them all away, but I thinkthe attachment might be overplayed.. to the point where maybe it becomes harmful to the development of the league?
Well the four best-supported teams in the league should, by definition, be its most viable clubs. More so if they've already been around 100 years. Those would be the last clubs you'd think need merging tbh
Fair enough point. I come at LoI from a strange angle to more regular LoI fans. Former shams supporter from the Milltown days and if I had to pick a team now it would be rovers, BUT for the past ten years, I really only watch LoI teams in Europe. This has me thinking about the league as a whole rather than thinking about it as a fan of any particular club. So it's easy for me to downplay fans' attachments to their clubs.
BTW, I followed a link you shared to UCD match programmes yesterday (think it was on this thread.. maybe not) and I noticed a banner that said something like 'Set Your match Calendar for 2017!' Do you run that site or know who does? That banner needs changing. Small thing to fix, but at the same time I can see visitors being put off by it (and others having their negative preconceptions reinforced).
Yes, the website is an issue alright. I've mentioned it, but I think we're effectively running off Twitter/Facebook now and the website is largely idle. I completely agree with your views on that alright.
I remember the days when it was a well-supported league. My family were Shamrock Rovers supporters and on an occasional Sunday I would be brought to Milltown to see a LOI game. I kid you not when I tell you you could not get into the ground for some games - it was so packed. Rovers v Waterford, Bohs, Cork or Shelbourne would see lines of supporters going down the street outside the turnstiles.Quote:
Originally Posted by texidub
May parents tell me of how they'd go to Dalyer and Milltown in the 50s and they'd be packed. I started going in the late 70s and after a while you'd recognise all attendees' faces!
I vowed to leave this one alone, but stadia are a big point. Theoretically when Dalyer and Milltown had decent capacity there was potential for growth, but the growth potential of all LOI clubs is now effectively capped by the much smaller ground capacities. If (and here I reopen the proverbial can of worms) there were mergers or restructuring, I admit it would need to include and enable massive investment in stadia. Of course the status quo lobby will say this is not going to happen, but it’s definitely not going to happen without a restructure, but it just might if any new league model was underpinned by a credible business model, and a body that wasn’t the FAI. Something more akin to the Premier League.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I take the point about Dublin clubs being the best supported etc, but if we’re ruling out mergers, at the very least we need ground shares, and a more ambitious approach to accommodating a growing spectator base.
S
I suppose you’d include me as part of the “status quo” lobby (and I don’t even have any of their albums !) but I’d love to know what you ideas for restructuring are. Tinkering with the size of the league, an All Ireland league ? I’ve been seeing this debate for as long as I’ve been attending matches, and it keeps going round in circles. Merging teams I think is not going to work, for reasons set out above. Ground sharing has similar problems in my view. How many will follow Shels to Dalymount if it goes through ? Similarly, I’d imagine Pats would lose a lot of their base if they moved to Tallaght. Would these be replaced by new supporters ? I’d very much doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
In truth there are no easy answers. The crux is how to make the game here more attractive to people. If people are expecting English Premier league standards, either on the field or off the field, then they are inevitably going to be disappointed. We have to sell the league as something that belongs to us, somewhere you can experience good standard live football on your doorstep. A lot of work needs to be put into community work to start to achieve this. Bohs have done great work in this regard to be fair to them, and seem to be reaping the rewards. We also need the media to be more engaged, to act like the games actually matter. There is a huge element, in my view, of, if you act like it’s important it becomes important. Then people want to attend. If we can crack the attendances issue, everything else will fall into place in my view. Whether we can do that is another question.
Oh, and by the way, Damien Duff, eh ?��
I don’t think anyone is expecting to see Premier League standards in the LOI, but at the moment our teams do less well in Europe than Cyprus despite having nearly 10 times the population. I just we think we should be aiming to have a domestic league at least on a par with European countries with similar size populations, but we’re way behind. If we don’t improve the standard then we are unlikely to improve the performance of the international team by developing the talent base. That’s my concern, and frankly there are more people in Ireland interested in the international team than support the LOI.
Well, there's a lot of Russian money in Cyprus. Probably not all of it entirely legit. Maybe not the best comparison.
But yes, the LoI can do a lot better