Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by culloty82

...the next priority when it comes to new entrants would seem to lie in reviving areas that formerly had LoI clubs, and thus a support base to tap into, particularly where they have teams active at underage level, rather than saturating divisions with Leinster Senior League sides.

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Might not there be a reason why those areas no longer support (literally) LOI clubs? While I don't really see the particular relevance of under-age football to Senior, mens football, since the big professional sides will still sign up the best youngsters from the provinces should they think them good enough

Anyhow as I've noted before, the building blocks for your pyramid must lie with your clubs, not regions, counties, Provinces etc.

Of course the club base would ideally represent a wide geographical spread, but football in Ireland has never worked like that*. So that with the exception of a number of clubs in what I call "proper football towns" (eg Sligo, Ballybofey, Derry), located in areas of the country where football is otherwise isolated, the game in ROI is predominantly urban and Dublin/East Coast centred.

Therefore you should concentrate on building your pyramid first from those clubs which already are organised, thriving and ambitious, even if LSL-centric, then build outwards from a strong base to develop the game in newer, less traditional areas**.


* - I think I read somewhere that when the IFA and FAI split in 1921, there were more registered football clubs in Co.Antrim alone than the whole of Munster, at least after the British Army pulled out. While Connacht can't have had too many clubs, either.

** - The fact that eg Kerry (county) has a population of 150k is pretty irrelevant, if most of the the people there aren't greatly interested in the game, and/or are isolated and spread out etc. But if an individual town like Tralee already has a solid history in the game, then a 25k population should be enough of a base on its own to build a senior club. Similarly, if Tralee were only, say, 20 miles up the road from Dublin, the same principle should apply, regardless of how many other big clubs there are nearby.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Two pyramids when you can't establish even one? Sorry, but that is insane!

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The League of Ireland has a blank canvas so to speak. The evidence of the Irish League is that the pyramid system is counter productive for attaining a professional league.
The LoI youth leagues learned lessons from the A Championship. New entities were welcome from non LoI areas. Allowing 3 clubs from Galway was a failure. Mervue and Salthill were elite recreational.
Kerry are fortunate to graduate from the youth leagues to First Division. CK and Kildare can graduate from youth leagues to a third tier. If a third tier can get off the ground, it can be come an established league for clubs or entities with elite ambitions.
I have not seen much ambition for district leagues offering promotion to a higher regional level. My humble suggestion is a district league champions cup. The success of that or not can determine if there is an appetite for higher regional Levels bring established.
As there is currently no promotion from district leagues to provincial leagues, the winner of the District Champions Cup could join the winners of the Munster League and Leinster League in a Regional Champions Cup.

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Originally Posted by legendz

The League of Ireland has a blank canvas so to speak. The evidence of the Irish League is that the pyramid system is counter productive for attaining a professional league.

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The evidence suggests, in fact, that the pyramid system introduced in the Irish League has been a massive success. I'm not sure how you can even begin to suggest otherwise.

Looking at it from a border region, it's hard not to be incredibly jealous of what they have implemented in a relatively short space of time. Clubs across the north at a junior and intermediate level actually aspire to climb the ladder, but know they cannot do so if they don't have the required facilities, so it's also seen an increase in clubs putting together better facilities at a lower level. Strabane Athletic are one such example of a club who are improving their facilities with a view to stepping into senior football in the near future.

Clubs in the south don't have that. They either go boom or bust by joining the league of Ireland as it sits and it's just too big a gamble.

The lack of joined up thinking in Irish football is the problem, and ideas like a secondary pyramid system, completely separate from the top level of football, is just beyond comprehension.

For someone who paraded a pyramid system on here for years, your tune has changed dramatically, Legendz. And I'd say, for the worse.

Irish football needs to come together, not separate further.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

The evidence suggests, in fact, that the pyramid system introduced in the Irish League has been a massive success. I'm not sure how you can even begin to suggest otherwise.

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Thanks for that. I personally wouldn't go quite so far as "massive"(!), but there's no doubt that domestic football in NI would be FAR worse off without the pyramid. In essence the benefits lie in providing a safety net to avoid going bust for clubs which may go through hard times, while offering encouragement to new clubs who may wish to take their place eg Newry vs Warrenpoint, Derry vs Institute, Distillery vs Ballymacash, Portadown vs Annagh (note that all of these are outside of our traditional football heartland in Belfast).

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Looking at it from a border region, it's hard not to be incredibly jealous of what they have implemented in a relatively short space of time. Clubs across the north at a junior and intermediate level actually aspire to climb the ladder, but know they cannot do so if they don't have the required facilities, so it's also seen an increase in clubs putting together better facilities at a lower level. Strabane Athletic are one such example of a club who are improving their facilities with a view to stepping into senior football in the near future.

Clubs in the south don't have that. They either go boom or bust by joining the league of Ireland as it sits and it's just too big a gamble.

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Who'd have thought a place like Strabane (no offence) could support a successful, ambitiousclub? I mean, its hardly what you might call "fertile football ground", but fair play to them! (Incidentally, many border clubs like Strabane get players from across the border, esp from counties which don't have a great deal of football locally themselves (Cavan, Monaghan, South Donegal etc)

Anyhow, on this question of facilities, the IFA has progressivley sought to raise standards in this respect eg seats. terraces, changing rooms, turnstiles, floodlights, pitches, perimeter fencing etc, with the requirments rising as clubs ascend the pyramid. I heard one interesting example a couple of years back from Comber Rec. Coming from a Co.Down town of 10k people, the Rec started in 1950 as a Junior club with a hut by a field to play at. Over the years they have improved their whole set-up to Internediate level, including a shiny big Social Club which provides a lot of revenue, as well as being a real community hub for the town. And as their website says:
"The club has come a long way since the early days of the “Tin Hut” at Parkway. It has its own social club and bar, new changing facilities, dugouts, equipment store and a supporters club who give valued support both at home and away."
http://www.comber-rec.co.uk/club/history.asp

A recent IFA directive for Intermediate status included that changing rooms (players and officials separately) must be of a minimum size with a set number of showers etc, and also (I think) no more than 50 yards from the pitch. I guess this was to prevent clubs just using eg the Leisure Centre up the road, or sharing with some other club in the vicinity? Anyhow, Comber were very proud of the excellent facilities they provide, until an IFA inspection revealed that the changing rooms, in the far end of the Social Club, were actually 70 yards from the pitch!

Anyhow, I assume they got an exemption, since they're still Intermediate, but it shows what can be done.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

The lack of joined up thinking in Irish football is the problem, and ideas like a secondary pyramid system, completely separate from the top level of football, is just beyond comprehension.

For someone who paraded a pyramid system on here for years, your tune has changed dramatically, Legendz. And I'd say, for the worse.

Irish football needs to come together, not separate further.

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Makes sense.

Though on the subject of "joined up thinking", the IFA recently devolved responsibility for the top three tiers (two Senior and Premier Intermediate) to the Northern Ireland Football League, also the NI Womens' League:
https://www.nifootballleague.com/

Curiously enough, I think this is the opposite of the situation in ROI, where the FAI have taken control of the LOI (unsure?). Anyhow, I expect they reckon that the professional game is better placed to run its own affairs, while leaving the rest of the game to the IFA.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

The evidence suggests, in fact, that the pyramid system introduced in the Irish League has been a massive success. I'm not sure how you can even begin to suggest otherwise.

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Granted it is successful at a certain level for the improvement of facilities etc. That's all well and good. It doesn't help a professional league get established however.
An elite club and many recreational clubs can coexist. I think that model using a double pyramid is the better route to take.
What's the point in recreational clubs rowing against Longford Town? An elite player can go and play for Longford Town. Just wish them well. All regions should want to give their best players the opportunity of playing at a high level.
A pyramid is very much pie in the sky when at a basic level, district league champions aren't even progressing to a champions cup.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Granted it is successful at a certain level for the improvement of facilities etc. That's all well and good. It doesn't help a professional league get established however.
An elite club and many recreational clubs can coexist. I think that model using a double pyramid is the better route to take.
What's the point in recreational clubs rowing against Longford Town? An elite player can go and play for Longford Town. Just wish them well. All regions should want to give their best players the opportunity of playing at a high level.
A pyramid is very much pie in the sky when at a basic level, district league champions aren't even progressing to a champions cup.

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I'm sorry, but I'm still struggling to figure out how you think, on even the most basic of levels, that further diluting the system, is anywhere close to being in the realms of a good idea?

Surely, as you say, the improvement of facilities is a major factor in any improvement of the standards of football in Ireland?

All across the country, clubs are playing in sub standard facilities, there's a massive lack of proper training facilities, with many clubs sharing the same.

Any improvement of facilities, is an improvement in professionalism immediately.

A club wins a league, they move up a division only if they meet the required standard of facility. Everyone striving to be the best they can be as a club will improve their facility to meet the requirements. That's a progression of, not only footballing standards, but off the field standards, ergo, professionalism.

Professionalism does not always equate to the amount of full time players. Professionalism is also measured in how a club, or group of clubs, carry themselves.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Granted it is successful at a certain level for the improvement of facilities etc. That's all well and good. It doesn't help a professional league get established however.

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How can you say that?

NI has two Senior divisions with 24* pro- and semi-pro teams, quite a few of them relatively new at that level, from a population of 2m. ROI has x 2 1/2 times the population and struggles to maintain 20 clubs. (I say "maintain", since unlike in NI, quite a few of those teams have gone bust in recent years, or are phoenix clubs). And by and large, the stadia in NI are better than those in ROI, at least relative to the size and status of the teams who play in them. They also more likely to be club-owned too.

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Originally Posted by legendz

An elite club and many recreational clubs can coexist.

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They can co-exist in a single pyramid, too, just at different levels. That is, the majority of Junior clubs do not wish/intend to acquire Intermediate status, while many Intermediate clubs do not see themselves as ever being Senior clubs. Rather, the point is that those other clubs who do harbour those ambitions have a clear pathway to tell them what they must do.

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Originally Posted by legendz

I think that model using a double pyramid is the better route to take.
What's the point in recreational clubs rowing against Longford Town? An elite player can go and play for Longford Town. Just wish them well. All regions should want to give their best players the opportunity of playing at a high level.
A pyramid is very much pie in the sky when at a basic level, district league champions aren't even progressing to a champions cup.

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I can't help thinking that due to the (admittedly numerous) obstacles which are presently blocking a pyramid in ROI, you''ve decided it's just too hard.

And instead you propose "An Irish solution to an Irish problem", which is essentially meaningless, almost to the extent of constituting one of those tired old Irish jokes which second rate comedians used to tell on crap British TV shows in the 1970's.


* - I say 24 IL vs 20 LOI, though without the anomaly of Derry City, it might actually be 25 and 19.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

But if they were a brand new club (unsure?), then why were they allowed membership of the Scottish league at any level?

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Bevcause the Scottish League is a member-run organisation, and that's what they voted to do.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

If I were to start up a new club in Glasgow, they'd have to start in whatever league would have them, at whatever level. They certainly couldn't expect to be invited to join a Pro-/Semi-pro League like the SFL.

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Which is, of course, precisely what happened. The closed-shop, member-run SFL organisation voted to accept the New Rangers, If they hadn't, the club would have had to look elsewhere. I don't know if you recall, but Rangers supporters were pretty sure at the time that they wouldn't face the ignimony of having to start in League 2. They thought they'd be voted into the Championship.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Which is why eg Bury had to start at the 10th(?) tier in England, likewise eg FC United of Manchester etc.

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You're ignoring the fundamental difference that English football had a comprehensive pyramid system at that time, whereas Scopttish football didn't. I've already highlighted in a previous post that if the same thing happened to Rangers now they'd have to enter the system at a much lower level. But the Scottish pyramid stopped and started at League 2 in those days.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

I can't speak to every instance but it's very clear that Rangers were liquidated, ceased to exist and a phoenix entity had to apply for the vacant place left in the league by Rangers' liquidation.

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The vacant spot was in the SPL though - not the SFL, which is where the Continuity Rangers ended up.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Who'd have thought a place like Strabane (no offence) could support a successful, ambitiousclub? I mean, its hardly what you might call "fertile football ground", but fair play to them! (Incidentally, many border clubs like Strabane get players from across the border, esp from counties which don't have a great deal of football locally themselves (Cavan, Monaghan, South Donegal etc)

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On what basis are you claiming that Strabane is barren soil for football ? I've family from there and can tell you that it is very much a football town. There are lots of Derry City and even Finn Harps supporters in the area. I would say that football is at the very least as big as GAA in the town, if not bigger (I don't know if we have any Strabaninals on the site who can give a more definitive view? )

You do have form for making incorrect claims on here about places and things you seem to have little genuine knowledge of, doing so based primarily on personal prejudice, and then doubling-down repeatedly on the false claims when challenged. So let's see how this one goes (grabs popcorn) :D

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Bevcause the Scottish League is a member-run organisation, and that's what they voted to do.

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Thst's how they managed it technically, but morally at least, it should not have been allowed (imo).

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Which is, of course, precisely what happened. The closed-shop, member-run SFL organisation voted to accept the New Rangers, If they hadn't, the club would have had to look elsewhere. I don't know if you recall, but Rangers supporters were pretty sure at the time that they wouldn't face the ignimony of having to start in League 2. They thought they'd be voted into the Championship.

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True - and yet another argument for an external regulator.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

You're ignoring the fundamental difference that English football had a comprehensive pyramid system at that time, whereas Scopttish football didn't. I've already highlighted in a previous post that if the same thing happened to Rangers now they'd have to enter the system at a much lower level. But the Scottish pyramid stopped and started at League 2 in those days.

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That would be hilarious!

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

On what basis are you claiming that Strabane is barren soil for football ? I've family from there and can tell you that it is very much a football town. There are lots of Derry City and even Finn Harps supporters in the area. I would say that football is at the very least as big as GAA in the town, if not bigger (I don't know if we have any Strabaninals on the site who can give a more definitive view?

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The very fact that local fans go to Derry or Bsllybofey for their football fix might tell you something, no? Namely that Strabane Athletic were only formed in 2010 and play at a leisure centre. While over the river, Lifford is hardly a "name" in footballing circles in Donegal.

Compare that with eg the nearby and much smaller Castlederg, which sustains a Championship club (just about!), or Dungannon, which supports a Premiership football club despite strong competition from GAA and Rugby. Why even Enniskillen supports 6 separate football clubs, but only one GAA club and one rugby club.

Meanwhile, I note that Strabane Sigersons GAC date from 1902, and own their own ground, while the town has even had a thriving cricket club since 1883, that part of the country actually being a bit of a local strnghold for the sport.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

You do have form for making incorrect claims on here about places and things you seem to have little genuine knowledge of, doing so based primarily on personal prejudice, and then doubling-down repeatedly on the false claims when challenged. So let's see how this one goes (grabs popcorn) :D

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Whatever...

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The very fact that local fans go to Derry or Bsllybofey for their football fix might tell you something, no? Namely that Strabane Athletic were only formed in 2010 and play at a leisure centre. While over the river, Lifford is hardly a "name" in footballing circles in Donegal.

Compare that with eg the nearby and much smaller Castlederg, which sustains a Championship club (just about!), or Dungannon, which supports a Premiership football club despite strong competition from GAA and Rugby. Why even Enniskillen supports 6 separate football clubs, but only one GAA club and one rugby club.

Meanwhile, I note that Strabane Sigersons GAC date from 1902, and own their own ground, while the town has even had a thriving cricket club since 1883, that part of the country actually being a bit of a local strnghold for the sport.

Whatever...

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To be fair, Shay Given might argue differently about Lifford.

For a tiny town, of barely a 1,500 population, it hosts two football teams and barely scrapes together a gaelic football team.

It's had it's fair share of footballing success relative to it's size.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

To be fair, Shay Given might argue differently about Lifford.

For a tiny town, of barely a 1,500 population, it hosts two football teams and barely scrapes together a gaelic football team.

It's had it's fair share of footballing success relative to it's size.

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Fair enough, though Shay's Dad, also a gk, played for a time in the Fermanagh & Western League, curiously enough at the same time, and against, Roy Carroll's Dad, also a gk!

(There's an obscure bit of trivia for ya, gratis!)

In relation to an earlier pt made here, I think the reason that local recreational clubs have a bad relationship with Longford Town FC is that they know that any players they send to us will find it extremely difficult to make our first team unless its exceptional. I think that the only solution is for Longford Town to go entirely local or go for players either from the midlands,northwest , western side of Ireland. I think that the Dublin experiment is not working for us and here lies the problem!

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

True - and yet another argument for an external regulator.

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Really ? What would they do ? Surely a pyramid like they have now was the appropriate solution ?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The very fact that local fans go to Derry or Bsllybofey for their football fix might tell you something, no? Namely that Strabane Athletic were only formed in 2010 and play at a leisure centre. While over the river, Lifford is hardly a "name" in footballing circles in Donegal.

Compare that with eg the nearby and much smaller Castlederg, which sustains a Championship club (just about!), or Dungannon, which supports a Premiership football club despite strong competition from GAA and Rugby. Why even Enniskillen supports 6 separate football clubs, but only one GAA club and one rugby club.

Meanwhile, I note that Strabane Sigersons GAC date from 1902, and own their own ground, while the town has even had a thriving cricket club since 1883, that part of the country actually being a bit of a local strnghold for the sport.

Whatever...

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My God - You really are doubling down on something you've just adopted a random belief on yet again :eek:

If it helps you sleep at night by believing that people in Strabane and Lifford wouldn't recognise a football if one smacked them in the face, then knock yourself out kid. But it doesn't make that view any more accurate than the parallel universe you constructed re things like the Leinster Senior League and doggedly refused to listen to anyone else telling you otherwise.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Really ? What would they do ? Surely a pyramid like they have now was the appropriate solution ?

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In order to pass a significant change in the EPL for instance, it requires a 66% majority. In other words, the (so-called) Big Six cannot veto something which the other clubs want.

The equivalent in the SPL is that a 11-1 majority is needed. In other words, if the Old Firm don't like something, it doesn't pass.

Add to that the fact that the ineffably useless SFA (appropriate initials) are also in their pocket, and something needs to be done to shake up Scottish football, starting with Governance.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

My God - You really are doubling down on something you've just adopted a random belief on yet again :eek:

If it helps you sleep at night by believing that people in Strabane and Lifford wouldn't recognise a football if one smacked them in the face, then knock yourself out kid. But it doesn't make that view any more accurate than the parallel universe you constructed re things like the Leinster Senior League and doggedly refused to listen to anyone else telling you otherwise.

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You can bluster all you like, but it doesn't change my point that Strabane is hardly a "proper football town", like eg Sligo or Newry, or those other, nearer towns I mentioned.

Or perhaps you'd like to answer me this: What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?

(No hurry btw, I've got plenty of popcorn in as well...)

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

I'm sorry, but I'm still struggling to figure out how you think, on even the most basic of levels, that further diluting the system, is anywhere close to being in the realms of a good idea?

Surely, as you say, the improvement of facilities is a major factor in any improvement of the standards of football in Ireland?

All across the country, clubs are playing in sub standard facilities, there's a massive lack of proper training facilities, with many clubs sharing the same.

Any improvement of facilities, is an improvement in professionalism immediately.

A club wins a league, they move up a division only if they meet the required standard of facility. Everyone striving to be the best they can be as a club will improve their facility to meet the requirements. That's a progression of, not only footballing standards, but off the field standards, ergo, professionalism.

Professionalism does not always equate to the amount of full time players. Professionalism is also measured in how a club, or group of clubs, carry themselves.

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Glin in West Limerick has a population of 576. Glin Rovers are currently second in the Desmond League Premier Division. If a club doesn't see professionalism as part of their current long term realistic ambitions, let them strive to be the best at elite recreational level.
People can support Glin Rovers and Treaty United? Both can coexist? People can volunteer to help Glin Rovers and also support Treaty United?