Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

I supported Trap at the Euros, even when things went horribly wrong for us as I felt he deserved the chance to play whatever way he felt would get results for us. It didn't work out, but the man got us to a first tournament in 10 years, only one of three Irish managers to do so, and deserved and still deserves, respect from all of us for that.

That said I felt he should have left after the tournament and feel that even more so now. The way our squad was after the Euros I felt we needed to get a coach in for the next four years and not expect qualification for either the World Cup or European Championships in 2016. But get a coach in with the idea of him blooding in new players so that in four years time we could go out and see which manager would be available to try to take that matured side to the World Cup in 2018. Basically I wanted someone like Chris Hughton to get the job for 4 years to build a side that could be handed over to a top class manager to try to steer us to another tournament, in essence what Roy Hodgson is doing at England.

I think that needs to happen now more than anything. The confidence in the squad must be at a soul crushing low, we've been humiliated a few times in the last few months and I have big worries now about playing the Faroes. We're not out of qualification and it was always going to come down to us fighting with Sweden for second if we were to qualify, but it's looking increasingly likely that we're not up to even a challenge this time around

Just to put some perspective on the Austrians' draw in Kazakhstan, this report indicates Austria were largely dominant and maybe a bit unlucky to come away with only a draw. Quite the contrast with our own miserable performance out there, in which we were lucky to win.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Just to put some perspective on the Austrians' draw in Kazakhstan, this report indicates Austria were largely dominant and maybe a bit unlucky to come away with only a draw. Quite the contrast with our own miserable performance out there, in which we were lucky to win.

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I know what I'd prefer.

I think that in all the meeja bluster one very important thing is conveniently overlooked, and was never more painfully so than in (the usually good) Emmett Malone's nonsensical article before Kazakhstan, I believe it was, and by the continued output from INM and the clown show that Bill leads. Supposedly there are FAR better players we can get in the sky leagues who Trap just doesn't know about because he doesn't attend matches there every week. I mean, Capello used to attend 2 a day, and look how great he did? I don't see the genii regurgitating this diatribe (last night again) showing pictures from Russia and England of Capello fast asleep in the exec box! Okay, so Russian Premier football is as bad as it's English counterpart, but even I have problems nodding off, I mean, it's not tennis!

We don't have young talent as anyone with it is prostituted off to English and Scottish clubs for the highest price as soon as is possible. The structures are not in place in Ireland to develop them and the national league (top senior pair) have been deliberately, in my view, run down as it's easier to keep them just alive than improve them.

The nonsense about "lack of communication" is crapped out on 2 levels - FAI and Trap/Marco. Now this is bojjox, at least the latter part. In fact, both are, anything leaked to the meeja is from disgruntled twits or those who don't have the ability to make the changes. The latter doesn't make sense as I know from past experience that instructions can be given and understood with language gaps (had that even this afternoon at courtside) and it doesn't take a genius to motivate players. These rifts and disputes - weren't the krauts all at each others throats , apparently!

Until Trap is gone and a new victim is installed, this will continue to be whipped up. One of the all time great coaches is being pulverised by pr spin merchants like Bill and the INM crew, even going unbeaten to the end of the group will only buy time. Until our players can play football and not resort to type and panic, we're going nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

I know what I'd prefer.

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The win obviously.

But continually poor performances will come home to roost. If we and Austria continue to play like we have done so far - and I haven't seen Austria's games obviously - they will finish ahead of us. And I know I'd prefer to finish ahead of them than behind them.

When the players don't want to play for you its over. There is no coming back. It goes back to the home defeat against Russia. He started blaming the players immediately after that game. Accepted no part of the blame himself. That was the beginning of the end. Listen to his comments after the game yesterday. Its lunacy stuff. "The result is okay, even if 6-1 sounds a bit high. We created many goalscoring opportunities and we converted the chances that we had.
"We are very glad. Germany hadn't won away in Ireland for a long time."

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

"We created many goalscoring opportunities and we converted the chances that we had."

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Did he say that? That makes no sense. We converted all our many goalscoring chances, and only scored once?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Did he say that? That makes no sense. We converted all our many goalscoring chances, and only scored once?

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Direct quote from the RTE site. http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/inter...ting-the-sack/ bottom of the article.

I wish we'd stop putting these kind of results down to the selection of talent we have at our disposal.

Take a look at the Swedish squad. They had Alex Kačaniklić opening the scoring for them- a Fulham reserve who spent the back end of last season at Watford. A Watford which named Sean Murray (Irish under-21 international) as their young player of the year for last season.

Isaksson didn't make it in the Premier League, he's in goals. Lustig plays in the SPL. The two Olsson's have performed reasonably well in the Premier Leage at WBA and Blackburn, while Granqvist couldn't make it at Wigan and is in Serie A now, via a spell in Holland. In midfield, they have Sebastian Larsson who, while being excellent with dead balls, was overshone by the emergence of James McClean at Sunderland. Christian Wilhelmsson started on the other flank and hasn't played anywhere other than Saudi Arabia or the US in the last 4 years. He was poor for Bolton. Kallstrom is a very good player and did impress me at Lyon when I saw him in the Champions League. He's currently with Spartak Moscow, a team for which Aiden McGeady seems to perform well. He's partnered in midfield by Wernbloom, a player with CSKA I don't know much about.
Up front is Ibrahimovic who is an excellent player and has proved as much in Italy throughout his career. Beside him is Ranegie, a player who, at the age of 28, finally found his way to Serie A have spent his entire career in his homeland.

Basically, my point is that we shouldn't be too critical of the players at our disposal. Combined with the spirit and workrate that have seen very average players perform admirably for Ireland in the past, there is no way such a capitulation should have occurred last night.

Westwood
Coleman O'Shea Dunne Wilson
McGeady McCarthy Gibson McClean/Brady
Long/Doyle Keane

This side doesn't even mention players like Whelan, Walters and Clark who are currently enjoying regular football in the top flight. And I'm not intending to over-estimate the Premier League, of which many people can be very critical. It is just a yard stick I'm using to gauge players who are being picked regularly in one of Europe's top leagues.

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

Direct quote from the RTE site. http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/inter...ting-the-sack/ bottom of the article.

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It was the German manager who said that.

Separate issue: What was said in the press conference at 4pm?

We were certainly crushed under the wheels of the Panzers last night.

Let's leave my thoughts on Trap aside for the time being. Some facts:

- That German team was superb - a wonderful collective effort with every single bit of the team in harmony with all the others.
- We don't have the players that can campete with the game's elite these days. We have no Irish born players in the CL or Europa League this year, and none deserves to be.
- Put those two together and we realistically had no chance. We shouldn't be surprised.
- The above isn't Trap's fault.

However, what I think is Trap's fault:
- The modern game is all about pressing your opponents. We stood off them for the whole game. It was as if we were taking zonal marking to the extreme. Each player had a patch of turf to defend and that was about the extent of it. The Germans could go where they wanted.
- He asks us to trust the system. The system is a busted flush. It's been found out.
- He doesn't know his players' merits. He puts square pegs in round holes all the time and expects them to adapt. It's been happening for years.
- The players aren't playing for him. It feels like turning up for Ireland has become a chore, like it was under Kerr (rightly or wrongly).
- They don't seem even remotely cohesive on the ball. 2 passes, maybe 3 and then it's a hoof or a loss of possession. Painful.

That last bullet point you can argue stems back to a failure to develop players to a proper technical standard and that this is a symptom of the FAI standing over a broken pyramid. Spudulika was bang on in pointing out the flaws in our national system. But Trap's not blameless in this regard - he has never trusted the likes of Reid, Gibson on Hoolahan and he deployed Fahey in an inappropriate role yesterday.

Taking a beating at home isn't what's killing me, it's taking a beating at home without offering any kind of resistance. Capitulation it was called above. That's unforgivable and Trap has to take the heat for that because this car crash has been coming for ages. He turned around an underperforming team at our time of need but his thinking is out of date and inappropriate for our players.

I still think we have enough availalble to fight for second place - but we'll get nowhere near it with Trap in charge.

Ironically Trap's away record in awkward fixtures is very good, but I'd still like to see Noel King take the reins on Tuesday.

I'd say thousands upon thousands of those who attended last night will never go again with Trap in charge. It may cost the FAI money to fire him, but he'll cost them more if he stays.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Westwood
Coleman O'Shea Dunne Wilson
McGeady McCarthy Gibson McClean/Brady
Long/Doyle Keane

This side doesn't even mention players like Whelan, Walters and Clark

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Alex Pearce
Stephen Ireland
David Meyler
Shane Duffy
Wes Hoolahan
Stephen Kelly
Stephen Reid
Anthony Pilkington
Joey O'Brien

We have enough players in the Premiership to be a useful side

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

If the Trap doesn't want the players to bypass the MF why does he let it happen time after time?

He could bollock em or drop em. He's clearly content with this policy of giving the ball back to the opposition. If Liverpool players under Brendan Rodgers started ignoring his demands for playing on the floor do you think he'd not say anything?

These guys are professional footballers. They should be able to pass, move & control a ball.

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Problem is they have little option, the Germans have all our men marked so trying to pass the ball out
is pretty much suicide, rather then regaining possession in the German half they regain possession right in
front of our goal.

O'Shea & Ward lump it long when the nearest opposition player is 50 yards away. It doesn't matter if the opposition press or not they still take easy option every time & this should be eradicated by the manager if it's not the type of football he wants.

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Originally Posted by TrapAPony

Alex Pearce
Stephen Ireland
David Meyler
Shane Duffy
Wes Hoolahan
Stephen Kelly
Stephen Reid
Anthony Pilkington
Joey O'Brien

We have enough players in the Premiership to be a useful side

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Was the 2002 side that swept aside Cameroon and Saudi Arabia and drew with Spain and Germany really that much better? Of course, Duff and Given have since retired and were integral to that side, while we were missing Dunne and Keane last night but Cunningham and Breen were hardly an inspirational centre-half partnership. Spain and Germany have improved vastly since 2002 but 6-1 at home is a result that a Conference team hosting Manchester United would be able to avoid in most instances.

The Irish sports psyche suffers often from over-ambition (2007 Rugby World Cup) and complete pessimism and negativity. I think it's a completely negative attitude to imagine that we couldn't do better with a different manager than we did last night. Trap was often at fault in terms of perceived poor selection and tactics, but as the play-off against France demonstrated, there was an indomitable spirit among the players. Whether this spirit was instilled by Trap is uncertain, but it's spirit, hunger and belief have long been characteristics of Irish sides. The fact that they have been zapped out of the current crop of players is a rot that needs to be stopped.

Of course, finance is the issue that keeps cropping up in relation to changing management, but the FAI should still endeavour to bring about the change to ensure what happened against Germany doesn't happen again, because on the back of Euro 2012 Trap certainly didn't.

Slattery's in Beggars Bush showed the Ibaraki game from 2002 on TV before the game. I watched almost all of the second half. It really struck me how poor the game was, how much faster today's international football is, how we nearly gifted Germany two or even three goals in the second half, how casual Germany were in front of goal and how our first decent effort was 5 mins before our goal. Our play wasn't actually that cohesive at all. It shows you how the mind plays tricks down the years. Maybe we were better in the first half.

By the way, I'd qualify my post above by saying that maybe it's OK to stand off and absorb pressure if (a) you're good at it and (b) we're good on the counter. A bit like Chelsea. We're neither.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Slattery's in Beggars Bush showed the Ibaraki game from 2002 on TV before the game. I watched almost all of the second half. It really struck me how poor the game was, how much faster today's international football is, how we nearly gifted Germany two or even three goals in the second half, how casual Germany were in front of goal and how our first decent effort was 5 mins before our goal.

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True. Even through they reached the final, they were actually fairly mediocre (apart from the goalie and Ballack) and had a handy enough run to the final, and that was a mediocre enough world cup too. They went on to stink the place out at Euro 2004, which was won by Greece. Football really has moved on since then.

Just looked it up, they got to the final in 2002 by beating Paraguay, USA and S Korea....

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Trap was often at fault in terms of perceived poor selection and tactics, but as the play-off against France demonstrated, there was an indomitable spirit among the players. Whether this spirit was instilled by Trap is uncertain, but it's spirit, hunger and belief have long been characteristics of Irish sides. The fact that they have been zapped out of the current crop of players is a rot that needs to be stopped

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Afaic, we got to the WC 2010 play-offs on merit and nearly got through them, also we got to the Euro play-offs on merit as a seeded team. The big failure was to persist with hoof ball (which had already reached its end date) at the Euros and now this failure is compounded by continuing with it.
But the failures don't mean we have to revise every game in the last 2 qualification campaign and put any success down to luck, inadequacies in the opponents or positives in the Irish team which Trap had nothing to do with.

There is not a chance that we will get the better of Sweden in this group so we may as well write off Trap after the Faroes game and by the time this qualification campaign has ended, I'd bet the FAI will have recouped the pay off costs.