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I think anyone that actually follows Ireland is not blinded by Keanes scoring record and knows the stature of the teams he tends to score against. However being made captain has made him undroppable and in my view the one player that cant be let have that attitude is Robbie. it seems to go to his head.
I think he needs competition for his place in order to improve his performance, mightn't be a bad idea to drop him for a match or two, maybe play Ireland up front behind Doyle, see how that works out
Whats the alternative, and please be realistic. He is a top player who tries his best for Ireland and imo gets undue criticism. Ok he hasnt scored in many big games for us but we've never really had a striker who did such anyway.
I may as well express my view in this thread.
To be honest, I think the Keane Doyle partnership up front is a complete misnomer. Both are good strikers in the premiership and can score. But lets face it, the teams they play for can create chances for them.
Our midfield has been lame and negative for quite some time and their passing ability and skill levels are fairly low. Even our defence are limited when it comes to creativity and tend to hoof the ball given the chance.
Basically what I'm saying is we need a targetman. Badly. Someone who can compete with centre defenders and cause havoc. Who do we have that fits that description.
Or we need to play midfielders that will supply our front men. Like Andy Reid, Stephen Ireland Damine Duff, Stephen Hunt etc. Not Douglas and Kilbane etc.
I thought he worked his arse off against Slovakia.
I think being relieved of the captaincy would do him a world of good. As captain he has a whole field to worry about. But as a striker he can't afford to be doing that. The best captain is rarely the best player. I would agree it should be Dunne, but i don't know where this cult of the captain came from, with formal presentation of armbands the week before the game.
I think it puts pressure on the role that need not exist. I am not old enough to remember Andy Townsends first game as captain, but i would imagine he found out a half our before the game when Jack walked in, said "Andy, your skipper this afternoon and chucked an armband at him." (or whatever name he thought Andy Townsend was called that day, probably Tony, leaving Tony Cascarino looking round confused, and saying "but i'm sub Jack")
Its a situation mirrored in the other sport. I don't think we have seen the best of Brian O'Driscoll since he became captain.
Thankfully I didn't see the Czech game, but I thought Keane had a very good game against Slovakia. He made S.Ireland's goal, he did an immense amount of off the ball running, and looked sharp when he had the ball. Talk of dropping him is nonsense. No-one will thrive in the forwards without better service from midfield. Forwards can't score if they aren't fed the ball.
Now whether he should be the captain is another issue entirely. But he is worth his place on merit. And merit on the basis of performances for us, not for Spurs.
Personally I thought his last two games were his worst so far. The amount of times we got in a position to cross the ball and Keane was practically walking back from midfield where he seemed to run into all evening leaving Doyle up front on his own and over-crowding the midfield. On one occasion the ball was crossed by Hunt or Kilbane not quite sure but it reached McGeady on the other side of the box, Keane wasn't there for the first ball and still wasn't there for the second from McGeady.
This idea that he works his socks off is a myth, his attempts at closing down defenders is laughable basically he runs in the general direction of the ball without any conviction of ever getting there (compare that to Doyle or Hunt who actually put in challenges). He's a fat waster, not worthy of Niall Quinns goalscoring record, I'd rather throw Long or Stokes up front, even play Doyle on his own and an extra midfielder than watch him going through the motions dragging his ego around the park. Stans lame excuse for making him captian was it'd get a better performance out of him a la Spurs, if he needs an armband to perform do that he shouldn't be captain. It's an armband thats all it's not gonna make you any better or worse. I find that the notion he's weighed down by the expectancy of it another lame excuse for his substandard performances.
Made it???Quote:
Originally Posted by Marked Man
He got out of the way of the ball.Thats hardly making a goal!!!
Keane should not be captain.
He should start every game when fit imo, but should not be beyond substituting.
I disagreeQuote:
Originally Posted by btid1
he is a disgrace in an ireland jersey - all he is doing is living on past international glories.
As for the captaincy been given to him - OMG
i aint doubting his ability but with ireland he does not perform - his 31 goals have been mostly against poor teams
drop him and see if he manages to take his head out of his ass while he dosent have to worry about swaning around like a prat in an ireland jersey.
he was brutal in slovakia and czech rep - the 2 games when not only as one of our most senior and talented players but as our captain - we needed him most
I do too.Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
I think he started coming too deep for the ball long before he was made captain. He's starved of service, and it's where his instincts lie these days anyway. I don't think being captain has made him any more like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marked Man
This is the midfield that was overrun and couldn't pass a ball to save their lives? I don't think he should play so deep either, but that battle's long lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by mackannovic
'Worthy' of it? He earned it. By scoring a load of international goals. You try it. Heskey has 5 in 50 for England (with far better service), Cole had what, 1 in 12? The expectation that a striker in front of a mediocre team should be scoring a dozen goals a campaign is nonsense. It doesn't happen.Quote:
...He's a fat waster, not worthy of Niall Quinns goalscoring record, I'd rather throw Long or Stokes up front, even play Doyle on his own and an extra midfielder than watch him going through the motions dragging his ego around the park...
I don't care if Keane's goals are against the likes of Cyprus. I'd sooner the rest of the team would remember to beat them than have the farcical situation of having to beat a decent team away to keep any real chance of qualifying alive with a third of the games left.
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Originally Posted by back of the net
Germany 2002, Spain 2002, Israel 2006, to name just a few games he scored in that were big games.
Keane played his best for us when he was alongside Quinn, likewise at Spurs he plays his best when he is alongside berbatov. There is no doubt Keane suffer for Ireland at present because there is no similar player alongside him. But there can be no question over the guys commitment and effort to this team. It is clear to see to anyone who follows the Irish team with any bit of decent interest that Keane is one of our best players who undeservedly gets alot of stick when things go wrong. Truth is the service to him the last few years hasnt been great and that is wher e the real problems lie. Its hard to score goals against any teams, particularly the bigger teams when the service to the front two is poor.
I can just read the Star tomorrow. Irish fans rush to defend Robbie Keane!!!
Care to elaborate as to why??Quote:
Originally Posted by Seano
Keane steps over the ball at least 5 times a game and 99.99999% of the time its doesnt work.I would be inclined to give the assist to whoever crossed the ball AFAIK Kilbane?
i said he had ability and he was one of our best players - i never said he didnt score against big teams
also i have been an ardent fan of the the irish team for the last 15 years - so i have a massive interest in the irish team
as for keane - i dont single him out - there is others
reality is that he has not performed to his undoubted talent for the last 3/4 years on a consistent basis for ireland.
how can you say service lets him down when the majority of the time he is waltzing around the midfield or near the sideline looking like he doesnt have a care in the world.
he is a class player but hasnt reached the heights a player of his calibre and age should be reaching.
he is 27 - he should be starting to peak. I have no issue with him not scoring if he is helping out in other areas - but when he tracks back - alot of the time he seems so dissinterested
and his consistent mouthing off to the ref drives so many irish fans mad
To say he is a disgrace is, in itself, a disgrace IMO. I don't think for a second that he's ever produced his Spurs form for us (at least consistently) but he is still the best striker we have and his record proves this regardless of who the goals came against.
Giving him the captaincy was a mistake though and as another poster suggested, he shouldn't be above geting substituted when he is playing poorly.
He is the best finisher we have by a mile. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
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Originally Posted by back of the net
Tell me who has?
We've been on a steady decline since the class of 2002. Theres no denying that. We have some decent players but beyond that theres just lower league clutter.
He is our record scorer because he has scored goals. To say any striker doesn't deserve that accolade is just sheer stupidity. Whether he scored the majority of his goals recently or before WC 2002 is irrelevant. He's scored them, he's our record scorer and he fully deserves to be.
And to call him a disgrace to the Irish shirt is stretching it a bit. A lot infact. Followed by calling for players who have played 1 or 2 good games to be started ahead of him. Get a grip.
The simple reason that he hasn't produced for us what he has done for Spurs - Quality of player around him. He'll score fck all feeding off the likes of Kilbane and Douglas or Potter.
But I definately agree that he shouldn't be our captain. Richard Dunne should be. Dunne is our leader, Keane is our captain.
Hilarious. Keane stepped over the ball, fooling a couple of defenders in the box who were watching him, and thus creating space for Ireland in the box to have a pop. How is that not making a goal?Quote:
Originally Posted by btid1
Kilbane did indeed supply the cross.
in fairness i will admit calling him a disgrace was strectching it a bit - so i do retract that remark - apologies to all keane fans
its just my pure frustration at knowing the type of player he can and not seeing him perform.
i realise we dont have the same players as we did back in 2002 - but its his lazy not bothered attitude in some of the games that just infuriates me.
i could give examples of games but i dont have all day.
our best 11 should be good enough to get the best out of him and a manager who is willing to give him a kick up the arse - roddy collins answer the call (-:
No winning the ball in midfield and carrying it 20 yards before crossing it onto Ireland's toe is an assist ...not getting out of the way of the ball.To me Keanes move was good judgement not an assist!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marked Man
Everytime I see the drop Keane threads I always ask who would you replace him with?
For all the scoffing at his goalscoring record he still has 31 goals for Ireland. Can anyone see any of the other options getting that many international goals? I don't think so. Like it or lump it he's Ireland's best striker and until there is a realistic alternative then dropping him strikes me as cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Don't get me wrong he annoys me immensely sometimes and he shouldn't be captain IMO but do we really have the strength in depth to start leaving out our best striker? I doubt it to be honest. Dropping him for a game might give him a rocket up the arse but I don't see it as a long term option.
what about 4-5-1 with doyle up front and keane on the wing or in behind doyle - more of a creator - spurs have done it quite a lot
i dont mean to scoff at his record - its just when he is bad he is brutal
i know the majority of ye all like me were over at the games last week - i thought he was terrible against the czechs and only marginally better against the slovaks - those teams were there for the taking - i think 4 5 1 with keane in the hole would have worked
opinions please??
I think people expect a bit too much from Keane-hes a top class striker, not world class. He's never gonna get 15-20 league goals a season or be in contention for the golden boot in the premiership. He does well at spurs but can be very inconsistent from them as well. Yes I do agree that Keane plays alot of the time for Ireland too deep but that is largely due to the lack of quality in our midfield. If he stays up front, he doesnt get near the ball, so is drawn towards the midfield.
I thought he was ineffective against the czechs but so was the team largely, however I do remember at least three occasions when we were down to ten men and keane was back defending in our own box.
Against slovakia, both strikers were anonymous, yes doyler came up with a great goal but besides had a very poor game. Keane was instrumental in the first goal and had one good chance which he blazed wide. Im not a keane fan by any means but i believe he is our best striker who tries his best for us, he is not world class though and his finishing is too inconsistent.
I remember at the end of the 2002 WC video, Niall Quinn saying how the future was very exciting for Irish football, good young players coming through, first seeds in the next campaign.........how its all been fcuked up in such a short space of time.
I agree both sides were there for the taking, we shouldve taken 4 points from the 2 games at least...........IF the correct team was played in both games. Im not so sure about 4 5 1 though, I do think Keane is at his best up front with someone to knock balls down to his path ie like berbatov/quinn did.Quote:
Originally Posted by back of the net
elroy i appreciate what your saying - i agree keane is far to inconsistent - but just on his goal scoring for spurs - didnt he score over 20 goals in each of the last 2 seasons for spurs in all competitions - the majority of which came in the second half of each season -when he decided to take his head out his ass - imagine what he could do if was consistent
with regards to the the slovakia - doyle was very poor like keane - but the slovak team were poor and a player of keanes premiership quality should have been able to give more - they both should have - and the midfield
as for quinn we dont have one now for keane to play off - hence the 4 5 1 - also carsley is a great servant but dare i say not the answer to our def mid dilemma - therefore better to pack the midfield
but i completely agree with u mate on ur response to quinns optimism about our future - it truly has been all f**ked up in a very short space of time
and thats my fear that with our current crop of young players - that it will be messed up again - delaney and the fai clowns - take a bow
Keane stepped over the ball and was therefore part of the move and should be credited for it. Had he not done so and instead taken a touch then that particular goal would not have been scored. Irrespective of weather or not he does the wrong thing 99.99% of the time or not, in this case he did the correct thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by btid1
Im with the people who think he shouldnt be captain. He is trying to hard at the moment and is not where we need him up front. He hardly got a kick against the Czechs but that doesnt mean he didnt put in the effort.
hey ceirtlis - mate i dunno know if you were at the game - but off the ball i thought he was very slow in running for the ball - even looking for the ball - pushing back back into mid and making runs when upfront - thought he gave us nothing at that game - but he did complain to the ref alot - but in fairness the ref was a pr*ck so i wont hold that against robbie (-:
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Originally Posted by btid1
I never said Keane had an assist. I said he made the goal.
An "assist" is a term of art borrowed from American sports, where it means something like "the last significant touch of the ball prior to the scorer receiving it." Obviously you can't do this if you get out of the way of the ball. You can still make a goal though, as Keane did. Which just shows the limitations of the notion of the assist.
You read the Star tomorrow?! Who wins the 3:15 at Kempton?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
Agree with most of your points but I feel he's definately capable of being a 15-20 league goals a season man if he could start well for a change. I think his best league total was 16 last year or the year before and every other year he averages 10-15.
One thing I noticed is that he's a notoriously slow starter. It seems that November is normally the time he kicks into gear a little. The same is happening again this season. It probably doesn't help that Berbatov is off the boil but the two could be connected also.
the thing about Robbie thats annoys me is his post match ramblings........so boring and just another yes man
the captain of the team should be Dunne
and Keane has no guts................if he had he would have left Spurs after they bought their 6th or so striker..........
I agree he shouldn't be captain but to call him gutless for not leaving Spurs is a bit OTT. He's hung in there and fought for his place with some fine displays and is now first choice with Berbatov. IMO he did too much moving around in the 5 years before he joined Spurs. From 1997 to 2002 he played for 5 different clubsQuote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
i.e. Wolves, Coventry, Inter Milan, Leeds and Spurs. I think it's good that he has a certain level of stability now and is considered 1st choice but has a few decent strikers in the background to keep him on his toes. Pity that's not the case for Ireland at the moment but if 1 or 2 players out of Stokes, Keogh, Long, Rooney, Clarke, Murphy etc. make big improvements over this season then that should put his Ireland spot under a bit of pressure and we might see more from him at international level. An improved midfield with the 2 Reids, J. O'Brien and Garvan with another season under his belt to choose from might help too. Anyway the strikers I mentioned all have good potential but that is all up to now and Robbie is miles ahead of any of them at the moment and should be starting. Hopefully these young guys make the breakthrough soon but history dictates that from the 10 or so up and coming strikers only a couple, if any, will be the real deal.
I watched a fair bit of Spurs last night and I thought he was throwing himself to the ground in a totally dishonest manner throughout the whole game. Not once did the ref see through it. No wonder he wins so few penalties for Ireland (Israel at home was an example) as I think refs know his game and have him marked as a cheat. Rightly so on last night's showing. Embarrassing. Almost as bad as Jose Antonio Reyes, the "redeeming" quality being that at least Keane picks himself up again immediately rather than trying to compound the deception.
Far too harsh IMO, Robbie had one outragous dive when his touch let him down but other than that I didn't see him go down easily once. He also played well and set up Spurs second goal very calmly.
I see a lot of Spurs and Robbie really has got that diving element out of his game to a large degree. Fair enough he whinges at the ref too much but for example at the weekend (when there was an absolute stone-wall penalty and red card for the 'keeper against West Ham that wasn't given) he had a point. To say refs have pinpointed him as a 'cheat' is ludicrous. Andrew Johnson is a cheat, Robbie Keane isn't.
I'd like to see the West Ham one again. I thought he went down after a bit of contact rather than being resoundingly taken down. I'd say if the lob was towards the middle of the goal and needed another touch to put it in he could have stayed on his feet easily enough.
I saw 3 or 4 times where Keane went down to con the ref last night (t"throughout whole game" maybe an exaggeration), sometimes half heartedly but twice with full intent. Once early in the second half and once late in the first when he threw himself in the air under a cross from the right purely to make it look like he was fouled when attacking the ball. The ball was put back into the box and he missed with a flying volley. Maybe if he'd been on his feet the whole time he'd have been better prepared
I honestly thought the penalty not given against Israel might well have been influenced by a reputation for going down very easily.
I'm not a Robbie-basher like many here but I thought it was a poor show in this regard last night.
Do you think refs from outside England have him marked? I think they just ref the game as they see it.