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You can say similar for Kelleher. He has been beaten from distance in the WC qualifying campaign gone, and has been weak on crosses (he has to take that cross for the winner in Portugal). Don’t get me wrong, Kelleher is clearly our number 1 now, and arguably has been our best player in the WC qualifying campaign, but if you really want to nit-pick – you can. (Didn’t really see anything wrong on Bazunu’s part for the Millwall goals btw).
I suppose you can say anything really. I could say Kelleher was great when taking that high ball in the very final minute of the Hungary win and that offsets any criticism of the Portugal goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
But that's where stats come in, much and all as the purists may abhor them. Kelleher claims more than three times as many crosses as Bazunu for example. That's less impressive than it might sound at first - keepers don't claim crosses for the most part; a 10% claim rate is very good. But Kelleher is top one-third in the Premier and Bazunu is bottom 10% in the Championship (both from fbref), so there is a noticeable difference that goes beyond nit-picking. (You could say Kelleher is decent, if no Farquharson). And that feeds into criticism Bazunu has gotten from fans of Southampton and Liege - that he doesn't command his box.
Remind me.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Cool. Kelleher has taken 12 crosses out of 175 - nothing great, nothing bad. Three times as many is less impressive when you actually state the numbers. He is ranked eight in the EPL but the sample size is small. Pickford has the lowest take ratio for crosses 2.1% (4 from 189) - wouldn't be Pickford's greatest fan but he is an established goalie so wouldn't draw any conclusions from stats in isolation. But as stated, Kelleher is clearly no.1 for Ireland - he has the jersey. No problem there.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Are you reading Southampton and Liege forums to keep tabs on Bazunu? That takes dedication.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think it's absolutely fair to say that a weak facet to Caoimhín's game is his aerial authority of his box. That's a fair critique. He isn't an intimidating goalkeeper by any means. I love him and wouldn't switch him, but if I was a centre forward i'd fancy my chances in the air with him (yeah, but you're a fat coont Kingdom).Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I always am skeptical of goalkeepers who are skinless from the chin-down. An old-school, bigoted, viewpoint harking back to Match of the 70s perhaps, but seeing keepers with the tights just evokes flakiness ala Dmitri Kharine, Massimo Taibi, or Luca Bucci.
I've flip-flopped on that goal more times than the Trump on Epstein files. On one hand, I feel he was stupid to come for it because he has to have known he wouldn't get there first once the flight of the ball became obvious. On the other hand, he had to come for it because the marking wasn't there and the ball was so central. And ultimately, it was the perfect cross and once the attacker got the touch the ball is going in the goal regardless of whether the keeper comes or the keeper stays - the real crime was the space that (Johnston?) was given to the cross to come in and (sorry to say it) that John Egan loses the forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
What are Kells* stats at international level?
* & Baz (appreciate this is the Baz thread)
I think there's a couple of things here - first is that crosses is only a small part of a keeper's job, and I think the stats reflect that. The only conclusion in isolation I'm drawing is that Bazunu doesn't really command his area or take crosses. Second then is that no-one's saying Bazunu is amateur league standard compared to the Tommy Farquharson that is Kelleher. But the margins add up to the difference between, say, a Premier League and a Championship keeper. I think Bazunu is also bad dealing with shots from long range, and those facets all add up. (Kelleher last night had a good save from a shot outside the box when the forward was given space; some sort of witchcraft was no doubt invoked as JRG would have us believe these shots are nigh on unstoppable).Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
And if people want nit-picky balance, you could say Kelleher maybe needed to get a stronger hand to Arsenal's second last night, but he was kept busy enough over the night that I think he still had a solid game regardless.
I (and other posters here) often check out other clubs' forums to see how our players are doing, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Kingdom, I wouldn’t be too critical as Kelleher was arguably our best player in the WC qualification – this is probably a statistically correct assertion to make. But …. the header for the Portugal winner is made inside the six-yard box and Kelleher needs to be stronger – to quote somebody else "he doesn't really command his area". I re-watched the goal this morning, and you can see he was indecisive about coming or not. He takes a slight step back when the cross is made and his subsequent reaction is on the back foot and too late. Granted disorganisation with Egan’s introduction, Johnston not getting tight and the quality of the cross also played context in analysing the goal. Not sure if stats pick up the disorganisation, not closing down, the quality of the cross, or a cross the keeper should take – maybe they just register a goal for/ and against and mark it a a cross made/ faced? And while on stats to continue the thread's death spiral, thought Kelleher had a good game last night yet just a 6.3 rating on whoscored.com with an “e” above his name to denote an error leading to a goal (very harsh imo). The fbref stats record him facing 14 crosses – none of which he took. Bad or good? – depends on if your name is Gavin Bazunu.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Yet that is one feature of his game that has improved this seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The reality is that this is a common feature among modern goalkeepers compared to times past. Keepers are more reluctant now to come for a cross and when they do they are far more likely to punch the ball rather than to try and catch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
You really do have a bee in your bonnetQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Of course there are difference - and at the moment Kelleher is playing PL and Bazunu is playing Championship level (with little likelihood of him moving up) - part of that is the fact that Kelleher is three years older and didn't lose a year of his development to a serious injury. But there is also the reality that the difference between both divisions is not massive. There are some poor goalkeepers in the PL - or to be more accurate some goalkeepers in the PL who make very poor dicisions (both goalkeepers in the Brighton/Villa game made a ton of mistakes).Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Could Bazunu be better - absolutely - and so could many other keepers. But your comment here suggests that Bazunu has never made a save from a long-range shot which is false - and that it is routine for Kelleher, which it is not. But one big difference is the fact that Andrews has Brentford defending very well whereas Southampton haven't had a defence since Bazunu got to Southampton.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I disagree - I thought that Kelleher was poor last night, certainly not up to his usual standard in comparison to other games I have seen this season. He flapped a couple of times, he repeatedly pushed shots back out into the path of an attacker and I thought he could have done better for both goals. But these things happen - there was an element of inevitability about that result and I think that Kelleher and the rest of the Brentford team played down to the inevitability once Arsenal scored.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
All goalkeepers have flaws and make bad decisions - unlike outfield players, goalkeepers have nowhere to hide and bear the brunt of (often unwarranted) criticism when teams lose and goals are conceded. As I said above - you improve as a keeper when you minimise the mistakes and counter-balance with good saves / positioning etc (including coming and gathering crosses). We have a very good crop of keepers at the moment - in reality an embarrassment of riches in comparison to times past - most of them on the younger side with the potential to improve before they reach their peak.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Again, this is to misunderstand the nature of aggregated data rather than selective small data samples.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
FWIW, whoscored rated Kelleher 7.4 before the goal went in - you can argue about whether the second is an error leading to a goal (I've already commented on it, though nobody seems to mind that), but it typically counts that as a -1 on the rating because key errors can be major turning points.
Ah stop. There's a huge and growing gap between the Premier and the Championship, as evidenced by the growing struggles of promoted teams. The last two years has seen the three promoted teams go straight back down without a fight, something that previously hadn't happened in over 25 years. Sunderland this year are a complete outlier; Leeds and Burnley are struggling. And equally when they go down, more often than not they're up at the very top of the Championship again (five of those six teams were top four the year after relegation)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Again, this is making stuff up. There's no other way of concluding that from my comment ("I think Bazunu is also bad dealing with shots from long range, and those facets all add up. Kelleher last night had a good save from a shot outside the box when the forward was given space; some sort of witchcraft was no doubt invoked as JRG would have us believe these shots are nigh on unstoppable")Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Eh, no. That comment was made to make folly of your use of a selective small sample to suit your narrative. You said “Kelleher claims more than three times as many crosses as Bazunu”.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Why didn’t you use the full available stats? Since the 22/23 season when Bazunu joined Southampton and when stats on fbref for him start, he has faced 1202 crosses, stopped/ claimed 56 with a percentage of 4.7%. In senior league football, Kelleher has faced 429 crosses, stopped/ claimed 24 with a percentage of 5.6%. If we reduce the comparison to Bazunu’s EPL appearances, Bazunu faced 456 crosses in the 22/23 season, stopped/ claimed 36 with a percentage of 7.9%.
So does Kelleher claim more than three times as many crosses as Bazunu based on the aggregated data of your statistical source?
bazunus save percentage for ireland is 76.8%Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
kellehers is 71.8%
Yes - the gap between teams in the PL and the Championship continues to grow - the gap between the goalkeepers in both divisions is going the opposite way. There are only a handful of keepers in the PL that make a real difference to the teams that they play for - after that there is very little difference between what is left and what plays in the Championship - it is a reason why most teams in the PL are looking to improve at goalkeeper every single year. Last weekend there were some major blunders by PL keepers across the board (in part because of how the role of the keeper has changed over the past 20+ years). For most PL keepers if you replace them with a Championship keeper there would be very little drop off.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I will say this again - a striker 20 yards out from goal, given the time to set-up, pick a spot and strike the ball cleanly will score 19 times out of 20. A keeper, no matter how big, cannot cover almost 200 sq feet of goal and strikers are good enough to put the ball out of reach if given the chance. When you have defenders who don't, or are not coached, to close down the space an attacker has - then you are exposing the goalkeeper time after time (one of the attributes of Shane Duffy was that he would constantly throw himself in front of a striker to prevent the striker having time to take the shot, and ended up blocking many, and for those that he didn't block, helping his keeper because the striker couldn't get a clean strike on the ball).Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Now Bazunu currently has a compounding problem - the impact of his injury - he has reduced ability to plant his foot and push off to make a dive (a similar issue with jumping for crosses). He may fully recover but it will take 2-3 years at least for him to regain full use (and confidence) because this is an injury that can reoccur at any time (and it is an injury that is prone to reoccur) - and if it does his career could be over.
Bazunu had a solid game for Southampton against Birmingham. Couldn't do much for the goal (again - a striker 20yards out who cut inside and had notbody challenge him as he picked his spot in the far corner). Bazunu made a very good save from a deflected shot when the score was 3-1 to stop Birmingham getting back into the game.
Beaten from range again tonight. Only saw one angle so hard to say whether he could have gotten down quicker to it or not.
Here it is...was arguably too close to his near post.
https://x.com/SaintsExtra/status/199...3uj2FBzOw&s=19
Only fair to also say he made a cracking save low down to his right after that though.
Second goal was a bit questionable..although it was after he made 3 decent saves. Not much he could do for the first.
In totality, he was probably the difference between the win and the draw in this one.
Little bit in two minds about it as he needs to show greater aggression and goalies ordinarily get too much protection in these situations. But there is a foul for the second, and not a goal if there was VAR. The attacker is doing everything to impede his movement and you can see there is a jersey pull as well. Two WBA players out jump the Southampton defenders on that corner so there is that to consider as well. Otherwise, a couple of good saves in the match highlights and it was a good wide sweep pass (for a goalie) that started the move for Southampton’s first goal. Like to see him start to get clean sheets though.
One of those saves (assuming you're referring to the three saves from I think successive corners) was a block from Manning, not a save from Bazunu. The first one was a good save alright. Then he's too weak for the second goal (from a cross, of course). There's no foul there for me; just someone standing in his way.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
Interesting that the same was the case in the previous match against Birmingham too. What looks an unstoppable (well, except by Farquharson maybe) shot is only made look that way because Bazunu was on his near post for a central shot, so he's offering the whole far side of the goal up. There's a screenshot posted on the Southampton forum (and normally I hate screenshots, but as a positioning point in time this one seems appropriate). File is quite wide so putting the link in instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Drops to the bottom of the Championship in terms of PSxG performance - and that's even allowing for the fact that Southampton's open defending leaves him facing tougher shots than almost every other keeper.
Which is a foul. “Standing in his way” equates to impeding his movement. And that’s a correct observation. The attacker positions himself in front of Bazunu before the ball is in play and within playing distance, and the attacker doesn’t attempt to play the ball. He is deliberately standing in Bazunu’s way to impede his movement – a foul.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Yea - I think he was poor for the first goal - should have saved that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
Overall I thought he played well - and I agree was probably the main reason they held on for the win because they pretty much imploded in the second half
P.S. - looking at the first goal again - Bazunu appears unsighted when the shot was hit - there were two defenders directly in his eyeline to the striker. Now - I still think he should have got down to it - but it is likely that he saw it late.
I have always been an advocate for goalkeepers plowing through other players to get to the ball - it was a notable feature in past decades. But the rules have changed and if a keeper is too aggressive these days then they risk the possibility of giving away a penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I think he should have been more aggressive - but also that he was fouled. Now I would blame the Southampton defence in total for the goal. Four corners in a row the defence gave the WBA players effectively free headers on goal - Bazunu - and Manning (I think both made contact but Bazunu would have saved it if Manning was not there) stopping the first three. WBA players just outmuscled the defenders for every corner. On top of that for each corner the WBA player moved in front of Bazunu to block his movement - after the first time it happened a Southampton defender should have made sure he was positioned to stop that from happening. Now did Bazunu fail to recognise the need to stop it and not call for help?
He wasn't just standing in his way - he pushed back into Bazunu to stop him advancing towards the ball (as well as holding his jersey).Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I disagree with this - the screenshot does not tell the story. From behind the goal you can see that Bazunu was positioned where he would have expected the shot to go - indeed a Birmingham player had made a break towards the near post and the high percentage ball would have been a near-post shot or a pass to him at the near post. Grey hit it perfectly (because he had the time) - high into the opposite top corner and bending in.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Highlights from the West Brom game
With all the criticism being focussed on Bazunu - it is worth noting that Killian Cahill has had two nightmare games for Orient in the past week.
The highlights from the Birmingham game are here, the goal screenshotted is at 1:13Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Bazunu is possibly too close to the near post. Not sure if he should be either, I'm not a goalkeeping coach. The shot is at a good height for a save, it doesn't loop over him, but is struck ferociously - there's precious little time for him to react at all.
Downes (wearing number 4) has left Gray a lot of space to move into as well, despite not marking anyone himself. By the time he reacts, and charges out, Gray is already setting up for the shot. Turning his back isn't a good look either.
I'd agree that he was fouled for the second goal last night. But, as a general point, he's just not a commanding keeper in his penalty area - he's also not an imposing figure - maybe not a lot he can do about that but it's a problem.
In terms of commanding his area I remember he used to fly out after everything back in his first season at Southampton when they were in the EPL, but he'd miss a lot of what he went for. He's maybe gone too far the other way now. Maybe he's being told to stay put unless he's certain he can get to the ball.
Either way there seems to be a number of areas he needs to improve on, including positioning across his goal line, command of his area (both hopefully coachable) and how fast he gets his body down to low shots to his left (possibly not fixable).
He doesn't follow the play as it comes infield either - in fact he takes a step closer to the near post.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
It's definitely a good shot and you have to give the attacker credit. In fact I think it's an interesting one from an xG point of view. fbref scores the initial chance - that is, the position as the attacker is lining up the shot; the xG - as 0.03, or a 1-in-30 chance of a goal. And we've all seen those shots fly over or drop just wide of the far post or into the keeper's hands or whatever.
The shot that is taken, though, (the PSxG) is scored 0.19 - so the attacker has created a much better chance than average out of that position. And that stacks up - partly because the shot is on target of course, but also because it's well struck and towards the corner. Credit to the attacker there.
But that still says the keeper should be saving it four times out of five. Yet it looks an unstoppable shot - Bazunu is at full stretch after all. So how does that stack up? Obviously one option is xG and PSxG are nonsense, but football clubs are spending too much time and money on them for that argument to really stack up. The other option then is Bazunu is badly placed - he's giving the whole far side of the goal as a target, and if he'd been in a more central place for the shot, he'd have given himself a much better chance of stopping it. In fact, the Birmingham keeper saved two similar shots in the same game precisely by following the play infield, side-stepping to adjust his position, making him closer the shot when it comes in. Bazunu doesn't do this.
Again, I don't believe xG/PSxG down to the second decimal place, but I think that's an indication of the value of the stat - it'll force you to look at a chance more critically and see something which otherwise might have been covered up by saying "Nothing the keeper could have done about that". And when that's then aggregated over the course of the season to date and you get a stat saying he's on balance conceded three goals more than he should have, then you can make a general judgement call (he's again one of the worst performers in the league" without having to get down to which goals exactly he was and wasn't to blame for. It's more marginal than that - obviously, at the top level. But the margins are key for all that.
Jaysus - with all this xG and PSxG - are we in a computer simulation ?
seriously - the Birmingham keeper was at fault for all three goals - he was particlarly bad for the second one.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
in both instances you reference the Southampton striker was under pressure from a Birmingham defender and the shot was closer than the one Bazunu conceded.
He certainly was particularly bad for the second goal. The PSxG for that one was 0.05. So you're proving my point there, thanks for that.
Interesting to see you completely ignore the very valid criticisms of starting position and footwork. Much better to say the shot was unstoppable (but the opposition keeper was at fault for all the goals of course)
If only Brum had Farquharson, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I never said the shot was 'unstoppable' - in fact you are the only one to use the word 'unstoppable' in post #1406 above
And you need a stat to 'prove' your point - the 'point' is that you are unrelenting in your criticism of Bazunu (and he is the only keeper we have who is subjected to this type criticism - why is that?) - you really are not worth the effort.
Looked to be awfully far towards one side of his goal again for the Oxford winner today. Seemed to give the forward a huge amount of goal to aim at. Was beaten by a long ranger from Tyler Goodhram earlier in the game as well, but that took a deflection and there wasn't much he could have done about it.
I don't know why he wasn't off his line to narrow the angle for the second. Staying on your line for a one-on-one can only make it easier for the attacker.
Looks like his run as Southampton number 1 is coming to an end.
https://www.bavarianfootballworks.co...nder-of-season
No surprise that they're bringing in more competition based on his and McCarthy's performances. Whether the third or fourth choice keeper at Bayern will actually be an upgrade on either of them would remain to be seen of course.
Was the Israel keeper when they beat us on penalties to reach the Euro U21 finals three years ago. Saved three penalties and scored one. Think that might have been Finn Azaz's first game in an Ireland jersey? Evan Ferguson, Aaron Connolly, Jake O'Brien, Joe Hodge, Conor Coventry and Will Smallbone all played too.
I'm surprised they haven't gone for a more experienced keeper as competition. This lad has played very little football outside of Israel. Doesn't necessarily mean he's not good, but he's definitely not proven as a good keeper. He doesn't seem to have made any impression at Hamburg either despite competing against something of a journeyman keeper during his stint there.
A clean sheet and by the sounds of it a good performance from Bazunu today. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Peretz - if they do sign him - is likely to be nothing more than a back-up. He went to Hamburg as a back-up because their other back-up keepers were U-21s and they didn't want to go into the Bundesliga after promotion without an older goalkeeper. They paid Bayern €250,000 to take him on loan for the season, are hovering above the relegation zome and if they are dumping him now then it does indicate that he has fallen behind the younger keepers. The guy has done nothing in the last two and a half years and is 5th/6th in line at Munich. McCarthy is 36 and I suspect has lost any confidence that Eckert has lost all confidence in him. Now I may be reading this wrong - but given that Southampton have gone 7W, 3D and 3L since Bazunu came back in - I doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Bazunu has played well in the last couple of games - and I get the impression that he has started to get his confidence back for really the first time since his injury. I have suggested that he has matured and he has become far more vocal since Eckert took over (that was demonstrated against Millwall). Southampton are a bit more solid defensively as well these days, leaving Bazunu less exposed - and that is probably helping his confidence too. He had one really good save against Birmingham near the end of the game and another one against Millwall - preventing defeats like that does wonders for a goalkeeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler