Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

didn't know whether to post his here, or in the "Potentially Eligible Players" thread
former Northern Ireland U18 schoolboy international Ronan Hale, currently with Birmingham City has switched to the Republic of Ireland. His brother has also played for the North
from http://www.irishfa.com/news/2015/mar...ls-squad-named


Mohan names Under 18 squad for Germany game: https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/moha...r-germany-game

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Ronan Hale is the first switch since Eunan O'Kane, or since Martin O'Neill took over, as far as I'm aware. I'm under the impression O'Neill wouldn't be overly forward in terms of trying to recruit northern players for fear he'd damage relations with his playing-days association.

It's mentioned there that Ronan Hale is the grandson of Danny Hale, formerly of Crusaders. I'd asked Jimmy McGeough Sr. a while back had he known of any other players who'd liked to have played for the FAI around the time he was trying to get approval for it back in the late '60s and he actually mentioned Danny Hale along with Danny Trainor. I see Hale had 3 "amateur caps" for the IFA in the early '60s; not sure what the official status of those were exactly.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Who feels aggrieved with the north of Ireland? I doubt many in Ireland begrudge them a team. Other European countries would have more of a problem.

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Aye, on the Azermolduanian boards they talk of little else.

Welcome Kosovo.

36% of voters in NI have just voted for parties that- nominally at least- think NI shouldn't exist. Maybe that lad in Birmingham City's reserves is one? His granda is just before my time watching the Crues.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Ronan Hale is the first switch since Eunan O'Kane, or since Martin O'Neill took over, as far as I'm aware. I'm under the impression O'Neill wouldn't be overly forward in terms of trying to recruit northern players for fear he'd damage relations with his playing-days association.

It's mentioned there that Ronan Hale is the grandson of Danny Hale, formerly of Crusaders. I'd asked Jimmy McGeough Sr. a while back had he known of any other players who'd liked to have played for the FAI around the time he was trying to get approval for it back in the late '60s and he actually mentioned Danny Hale along with Danny Trainor. I see Hale had 3 "amateur caps" for the IFA in the early '60s; not sure what the official status of those were exactly.

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mcdermott the spurs under 18 keeper and mallon at sheff utd under 18s played for the north and moved to us in the last year i think

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Ronan Hale is the first switch since Eunan O'Kane, or since Martin O'Neill took over, as far as I'm aware. I'm under the impression O'Neill wouldn't be overly forward in terms of trying to recruit northern players for fear he'd damage relations with his playing-days association.

It's mentioned there that Ronan Hale is the grandson of Danny Hale, formerly of Crusaders. I'd asked Jimmy McGeough Sr. a while back had he known of any other players who'd liked to have played for the FAI around the time he was trying to get approval for it back in the late '60s and he actually mentioned Danny Hale along with Danny Trainor. I see Hale had 3 "amateur caps" for the IFA in the early '60s; not sure what the official status of those were exactly.

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Hale's scored twice in the game against Germany this morning, currently 2-1 according to the FAI's twitter updates

Now both Kosovo and Gib are fully fledged Fifa members.

I had assumed that the Uefa congress changed their statute on admission to become a member of Uefa.
Membership of UEFA is open to national football associations situated in the continent of Europe, based in a country which is recognised by the United Nations as an independent state

But that motion to change that statute was defeated. How can Uefa accept Kosovo who are not recognised by the UN as a state?
That argument will be the basis for an appeal by Serbia to CAS.

UEFA legal director Alasdair Bell said
a literal reading of that article “would not make sense from a legal point of view.”
“The United Nations has no competence to recognize states; states recognize states; you are either a member of the UN or not, the fact you are not a member of the UN does not mean you are not a state; this is a legal matter,” he added.

"This is a legal matter"? I'm none the wiser as to how Uefa can ignore the clear wording in the statute relating to the requirement of UN recognition, regardless of questions about UN competence.
Is "this is a legal matter" the lawyers equivalent of Father Ted's "that would be an ecumenical matter"?

Marcel Desailly, Graeme Souness and Neil Lennon were on Off the Ball live at Vicar's Street last night.

Lennon was asked whether he thought there would and should be one Irish football team to which he responded no, on the basis that both qualified, there were two associations etc.

Then, later in the discussion, the question was put to Lennon that, looking back, would he have rathered play for Ireland to which he responded 'Yeah' and this was greeted with cheers. Now, I think you'd have to be in the room for Lennon's response as I'm not sure if he was playing up to the crowd with that response. He went on to say that he was 23 and only at Crewe when he was picked for Northern Ireland, I think he was inferring that the opportunity wasn't there to play for Ireland at the time due to playing at a low level. It was a tough one to pick up on.

There was a decent and, inevitably, insightful discussion on the Old Firm between Souness and Lennon. Souness stated that he tried to sign John Collins and Ray Houghton before he got Mo Johnston. He said that Collins and Houghton were both open to the idea before having a further think about the implications and saying no.

Souness, coming from Edinburgh and, maybe, know his audience, didn't comes across as that sentimental about Rangers. Lennon, on the other hand, clearly loves Celtic.

Have a listen here and skip forward half an hour if you aren't too concerned with Desailly (who seems a cracking chap!): http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/

I'd expect CAS to kick them out again

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

He went on to say that he was 23 and only at Crewe when he was picked for Northern Ireland, I think he was inferring that the opportunity wasn't there to play for Ireland at the time due to playing at a low level. It was a tough one to pick up on.

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Aye, that's part of it as well. If you're a footballer and you're offered the chance to play international football (no matter who the offer comes from), very few will realistically turn that down as there's absolutely no guarantee another chance will arise in what is a relatively short career. Most will take it as it'd be risky to reject the offer in the hope that you might get an offer from elsewhere. This was the case for the likes of Paddy McCourt and Niall McGinn. Indeed, it was the case for many of the players who switched from the IFA to the FAI. Pragmatism, no doubt, trumped or trumps sentiment for many in that instance. So, before 2004, that meant that as soon as a player accepted the offer and played for the IFA, he was permanently cap-tied. After 2004, of course, players were entitled to switch once after having played at youth-level for an original association, so didn't have to permanently abandon their sentimental dreams upon taking a beneficial career decision.

Martin O'Neill once stated that he understood he didn't have the choice to play for the FAI either, but that's contrary to what the rules at the time stated. He, like Lennon, was mistaken.

Just had a listen to the show and it was actually the presenter who suggested "[playing for Ireland] wasn't really an option" to Lennon. Lennon first played for the NI senior team in 1994, as he mentions, but I think he had played for them at under-21 level in 1990 (and at under-23 and 'B' level between that and his senior debut). Not sure if he played with them at any level prior to that.

There is much info in that CAS judgement 2010 IFA v the Rational World, Evolution and Daniel Kearns.

Pre 1950, the IFA were picking players from all over the 4 corners of Ireland.
.The FAI had to get FIFA to tell them in a letter to fark off. The IFA still didn't get it, how dare anyone tell them that they couldn't select Irish citizens to play with a British statelet team.
But some sort of truce followed, the FAI asserted that didn't mean they surrendered their right to select any willing Irish citizen born on the Island

Something must have happened before 1994, some rumblings amongst the croppies against the planters, because in 1994 the ever vigilant and paranoid IFA, formally presented a question to a FIFA committee about the Republic granting passports to everybody on the island and could FIFA stop them from doing this as it meant they could then play for the FAI.
FIFA replied that they couldn't interfere with a country's constitutional right.
Aw shucks.
It was all downhill from there for the IFA as they went through their King Lear phase with abandon.

The rational world and evolution :D

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Just had a listen to the show and it was actually the presenter who suggested "[playing for Ireland] wasn't really an option" to Lennon. Lennon first played for the NI senior team in 1994, as he mentions, but I think he had played for them at under-21 level in 1990 (and at under-23 and 'B' level between that and his senior debut). Not sure if he played with them at any level prior to that.

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Did you think Lennon was being serious when he said 'yeah'? I really couldn't tell. I wish he was. O'Neill has been coy enough on it in the past, if I am correct? Brendan Rodgers, as myself and yourself established in this thread before, lined out for us as a schoolboy but stated something along the lines of 'Northern Irish boys should play for Northern Ireland' when cousin Nige was in charge.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Marcel Desailly, Graeme Souness and Neil Lennon were on Off the Ball live at Vicar's Street last night.

Lennon was asked whether he thought there would and should be one Irish football team to which he responded no, on the basis that both qualified, there were two associations etc.

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Pity DI wasn't there to detail his theory on how the FAI and its team should voluntarily dissolve themselves.

PS heard yer mate Jude on Radio Ulster the other day, digging himself a bigger hole as the presenter put it. Not a good idea to mess with the Boys' Brigade.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

If you're a footballer and you're offered the chance to play international football (no matter who the offer comes from), very few will realistically turn that down as there's absolutely no guarantee another chance will arise in what is a relatively short career. Most will take it as it'd be risky to reject the offer in the hope that you might get an offer from elsewhere. This was the case for the likes of Paddy McCourt and Niall McGinn

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Re Paddy McCourt, here is a verbatim extract from an interview he gave to Garry Doyle of The Irish Post on 08/02/2104:
"Northern Ireland fans have always been superb to me. And long may that continue. It is the way it should be, because we are playing for our country. People [in Derry] understand why I wanted to play for Northern Ireland. They know it is a sport, that footballers want to play international football. I play for Northern Ireland and love it. Fan's respect that. It's football... [not politics]"
Paddy went on to reveal in the interview that he had been "courted by the Republic of Ireland in 2002, before he quietly rejected the FAI's advances and accepted the invitation from the then Northern Ireland manager, Sammy McIlroy, to join up with his squad for their April 2002 international against Spain", a decision about which he has "no regrets"

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Brendan Rodgers, as myself and yourself established in this thread before, lined out for us as a schoolboy but stated something along the lines of 'Northern Irish boys should play for Northern Ireland' when cousin Nige was in charge.

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I had never heard that Brendan Rodgers had lined out for ROI at under-age level. Indeed I'd be really surprised if he had, since I know for a fact that he lined out for NI at under-age, before his career was very prematurely ended by injury.

You might be thinking of Brendan's son, Anton, who represented ROI U-19's twice in 2010 (also previously at U-17 level?). Yet when questioned about this in a Belfast Telegraph interview on 24/09/2011, Brendan said this:
"[Anton's having represented ROI] is not something that can't be rectified," said Rodgers. "I spoke with Gerry Armstrong recently as I'm a big advocate of Northern Ireland.
"I want to see Northern Ireland boys play for Northern Ireland and the reason my son is playing for the Republic is simple - they asked him while he was never asked to play for Northern Ireland.
"I've been speaking to Gerry and I think he's planning to go to Brighton to speak to him. Northern Ireland is a small country but we have a lot of talented players - we just have to look at how we can keep things moving forward."


Edit: I see now that Brendan does appear to have represented ROI Schools, somehow also managing to represent NI Schools, including here against Brazil:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uPuyj8xo7y...0/s640/036.jpg

Hard hats, flak jackets at the ready everyone.....

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Re Paddy McCourt, here is a verbatim extract from an interview he gave to Garry Doyle of The Irish Post on 08/02/2104:
"Northern Ireland fans have always been superb to me. And long may that continue. It is the way it should be, because we are playing for our country. People [in Derry] understand why I wanted to play for Northern Ireland. They know it is a sport, that footballers want to play international football. I play for Northern Ireland and love it. Fan's respect that. It's football... [not politics]"
Paddy went on to reveal in the interview that he had been "courted by the Republic of Ireland in 2002, before he quietly rejected the FAI's advances and accepted the invitation from the then Northern Ireland manager, Sammy McIlroy, to join up with his squad for their April 2002 international against Spain", a decision about which he has "no regrets"

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I'd contend that - reading between the lines - that comment about people in Derry understanding why he wanted to play for NI backs up my point as it is pretty much his way of saying that everyone knows he chose NI for the benefit of his footballing career - as he clearly states, it was because he wanted to play international football - rather than because he had a particular political or cultural affiliation to NI. I don't know how that could be interpreted in any other way. He's clearly saying it was purely a sporting decision, or what was best for his career, in other words. As he says, everyone in Derry does know that he made a career-oriented choice. It's well-known. McCourt didn't grow up supporting NI.

ifk101 put the second quote in perspective a few years ago:

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Originally Posted by ifk101

To put this into perspective, McCourt received his first senior cap with NI as an 18 year old playing for Rochdale (a league 1/ league 2 team at the time, and he didn't receive his next cap until 7 years later .... ). His inclusion in the NI squad, a team ranked 91st in the World by FIFA in April 2002, was noted at the time as a "surprise". At the time of McCourt's first cap, Ireland, a team ranked 19th in the World, were preparing for a WC. But sure maybe the Republik were on the look out for a new left winger - Damien Duff was decidedly average at the time after all.

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We have no idea what "courted by the FAI" actually means. It almost certainly was not by someone connected with our senior team anyway. Most likely it was someone associated with an under-age team; probably under-19s. Meanwhile, McCourt's chances at the time of getting first-team football with the IFA were evidently much better. That's why he turned down the FAI's advances; not because of any sentimental longing to play for NI. Let's not kid ourselves.

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Originally Posted by geysir

There is much info in that CAS judgement 2010 IFA v the Rational World, Evolution and Daniel Kearns.

Pre 1950, the IFA were picking players from all over the 4 corners of Ireland.
.The FAI had to get FIFA to tell them in a letter to fark off. The IFA still didn't get it, how dare anyone tell them that they couldn't select Irish citizens to play with a British statelet team.
But some sort of truce followed, the FAI asserted that didn't mean they surrendered their right to select any willing Irish citizen born on the Island

Something must have happened before 1994, some rumblings amongst the croppies against the planters, because in 1994 the ever vigilant and paranoid IFA, formally presented a question to a FIFA committee about the Republic granting passports to everybody on the island and could FIFA stop them from doing this as it meant they could then play for the FAI.
FIFA replied that they couldn't interfere with a country's constitutional right.
Aw shucks.
It was all downhill from there for the IFA as they went through their King Lear phase with abandon.

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The "truce" had two elements over a five-year period, as outlined from paragraph 49 of the Kearns judgment: http://web.archive.org/web/201107210...ard%202071.pdf

As you say, the IFA were selecting players from all over the island for both FIFA and "Home Nations" games up until the mid-1940s. The FAI took issue with this in 1946 and the general secretary of FIFA declared that the IFA were indeed violating FIFA's eligibility rule at the time. For FIFA games, the IFA would thereafter no longer be permitted to select players who were not British subjects.

This was in accordance with art. 21 al. 2 of FIFA's regulations: "The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent."

Obviously, this rule applied to both associations (and the British associations presumably had some internal means of deciding eligibility of British subjects from different parts of the UK amongst themselves), but the important thing is that FIFA's rule didn't refer to territory at all, nor did its 1962-2004 successor, which stated: "Any player who is a naturalised citizen of a country in virtue of that country’s laws shall be eligible to play for a national or representative team of that country."

The next update came in 2004 where a territorial clause was inserted for players who acquired a new nationality in order to prevent players being naturalised by countries and lining out for associations without having a "genuine connection" to the country concerned.

The main or general rule though has always related to subject-status, citizenship or nationality. For some reason, the IFA got fixated on the irrelevant matter of territory; perhaps because it was how the British associations determined their eligibility internally?

To return to 1946, however; over the years following, the IFA continued selecting Irish citizens (who were not British subjects) from beyond their territory for "Home Nations" games as such games were outside of FIFA's jurisdiction. In 1951, FIFA sought to rectify this situation and effectively decreed that the 1946 declaration would now also apply to "Home Nations" games as well as FIFA-sanctioned ones. This decree had no bearing upon the FAI's activities as far as selection was concerned, nor did the 1946 declaration really, other than to confirm the rule by which the FAI were already operating.

There was no declaration ever made in respect of the then or future status of northern citizens of Ireland, nor did either of these declarations intend to restrict the FAI from selecting its own subjects/citizens. That would have been contrary to the rule in place. The declarations were described as a mere "exchange of letters" by CAS. Thus, they had no legal effect and were simply a means of confirming to the IFA how they should have been operating now that they had rejoined FIFA.

Irish nationality law later extended over the whole island (from 1956 onward), so, in principle, an Irish subject/citizen would have been eligible to play for Ireland from then on, no matter where he was born; be that in the north, Scotland, England or further afield.

Perhaps the fact that Irish nationality law did not have all-island effect at the time of the exchanges in 1946 or 1951 led the IFA to believe at the time that the FAI were being restricted by FIFA to territory limits because Irish citizenship was then restricted to those born within the confines of the southern state. Who knows? Although they clearly knew that Irish nationals born in the north were eligible to play for Ireland in 1994 (FIFA confirmed this to them) and in 1999 (they had a meeting with the FAI and announced themselves pleased that the FAI would at least inform them if a northern player made an approach to the FAI), so why they went back on their understanding and word is a total mystery.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Did you think Lennon was being serious when he said 'yeah'? I really couldn't tell. I wish he was.

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I've no idea myself. Hard to tell without seeing his body language although it was re-tweeted by OTB as if he meant it in seriousness, so perhaps he did. Hard to know.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Pity DI wasn't there to detail his theory on how the FAI and its team should voluntarily dissolve themselves.

PS heard yer mate Jude on Radio Ulster the other day, digging himself a bigger hole as the presenter put it. Not a good idea to mess with the Boys' Brigade.

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I don't think I've ever suggested that the FAI should voluntarily disband. Where did I supposedly say this was something the FAI should do? I might have raised the notion for the sake of argument in an attempt to work out how far we might theoretically have to compromise or in order to see if you would back a single, united team under any circumstances, but I don't think I've ever actively advocated the notion of the FAI dissolving themselves.

Heh, Jude's actually a cousin (first once-removed). He was brought on to 'Nolan Live' on Wednesday night too to further discuss his contentious claim that the Boys' Brigade possess a "(para)militaristic" nature. Seems he hit a communal nerve and brewed up a real sh*t-storm. Or it was just a really slow news day...

I think he was a bit strong on the assertion of militarism (as that term possesses violent connotations), but I could sort of see the point he was trying to make. Would "quasi-militaristic" or "pseudo-militaristic" have been more apt? French social philosopher Michel Foucault regarded organisations or institutions such as schools, hospitals and, one would assume, boys' brigades - societal bodies that promote or instil particular ideals in citizens through various stages of their lives - as non-coercive means of enforcing discipline to power and conformity to particular values that society regards as virtuous and morally beneficial. I guess Jude was trying to make a point along those lines.

Not everyone regards Christianity, conformity or discipline to authority as virtuous, mind, but clearly a great many do. The DUP's Christopher Stalford asserted that the Boys' Brigade are a beacon of inherent and objective goodness. The virtue of the organisation is simply beyond question, as far as the upstanding Stalford is concerned; its status as good is self-evidently sacrosanct.

Some hold ideals like conformity and discipline in such high and all-consuming esteem, they will refuse to tolerate dissenting views from their peers (or perceived inferiors) altogether. They will demand moral self-flagellation followed by atonement from dissenting subjects who have stepped out of line, when they deem proper order to have been violated, when they see a sin as having been committed or when they consider a taboo to have been broken. Throughout Wednesday morning, afternoon and evening, this took the form of an outraged reaction to "Fenian liar" Jude's challenge and affront to conventional "Norn Iron" dogma. The Boys' Brigade had drilled its flock well. Or should that be its mob?

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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible

I don't think I've ever suggested that the FAI should voluntarily disband. Where did I supposedly say this was something the FAI should do? I might have raised the notion for the sake of argument in an attempt to work out how far we might theoretically have to compromise or in order to see if you would back a single, united team under any circumstances, but I don't think I've ever actively advocated the notion of the FAI dissolving themselves

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For the benefit of other readers, the conversation tends to go like this (unlike the impression above that it was raised once or twice and duly forgotten):

Random RoI poster/ commentator/ sh*t-stirrer: Why don't we have a united Ireland football team?

Passing NI fan: It would mean by definition the end of the NI team. We aren't interested for the umpteenth time. Now go away and stop stirring

DI: Hang on. Why do you assume the NI team alone would disappear? The FAI's would have to go too

GR: Fine, you go ahead and dissolve your own team. Probably best to consult with your fans first though, maybe try knocking some doors in Darndale to sell the idea?

As for the Cousin Jude and Chris Stalford show you're right, it was a slow news day. Jude made the same point he always does (ie two words, 'what' and 'about').

The more significant 'Scouting for Boys' story (sorry) is probably that BelAir now has its first gay deputy mayor. She described herself in interviews as 'lesbian, proud and a political prisoner'. Whether to suggest that all three were directly linked, I couldn't say.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

........ Irish nationality law later extended over the whole island (from 1956 onward), so, in principle, an Irish subject/citizen would have been eligible to play for Ireland from then on, no matter where he was born; be that in the north, Scotland, England or further afield.

Perhaps the fact that Irish nationality law did not have all-island effect at the time of the exchanges in 1946 or 1951 led the IFA to believe at the time that the FAI were being restricted by FIFA to territory limits because Irish citizenship was then restricted to those born within the confines of the southern state. Who knows? Although they clearly knew that Irish nationals born in the north were eligible to play for Ireland in 1994 (FIFA confirmed this to them) and in 1999 (they had a meeting with the FAI and announced themselves pleased that the FAI would at least inform them if a northern player made an approach to the FAI), so why they went back on their understanding and word is a total mystery.

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Did anything known happen in order to awaken the IFA's curiosity in 1994 about the eligibility of northern Irish nationals to play for the FAI or was it just a sudden onset of paranoia and they tried to get FIFA to take action to preempt the possible flood of talent to the FAI?
in the modern era, was Gerry Crossley the first northern born irish national to opt for the FAI in 1996?

Well Ireland were a strong force, and perhaps they feared the allure would prove too much, so wanted to ensure there was no posiblity of a switch. Previously your chances were just as good or better even, to have played for NI.