He's not wearing him because he doesn't like the British Army or what it stands for. I'm sure he has as many or more British mates than any of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
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He's not wearing him because he doesn't like the British Army or what it stands for. I'm sure he has as many or more British mates than any of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Didn't Dara O'Briain get a lot of stick about not wearing the Poppy before he relented? I used to live in Manchester, and quite a few locals told me they were glad the IRA bombed the town, they got a brand new city centre because of it! Can't see what the fuss is about, everyone harps on about WW1+2, most of the money raised by the British Legion goes to fund the families of (ex/)service men and woman who got injured in Iraq/Afghanistan/wherever else the BA went that they weren't wanted. They died for "our" freedom of speech and opinion, which James will only get as long as it conforms to political correctness
Does that make him responsible or negate the culpability of moronic bigots and these so-called poppy fascists who are set on vilifying and abusing him? If people have a problem with his identity, what's he to do? Stop being himself and submit to doing something he doesn't want to? He's a free man living within the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grafter
But he hasn't made any statement on the "issue" at all. If anything, wasn't it those who'd opted to wear a poppy-printed jersey, as opposed to the usual poppyless jerseys they wear every week, that were making the active statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
But the poppy has different connotations for different people. It's status as a symbol of contention isn't confined to just Ireland. I'm sure James fully understands what the British army got up to in Derry; that's the meaning he attributes to it. And, so what then of the stance of the more refined, articulate and enlightened Martin O'Neill? Did he similarly misunderstand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Ye wha'?! :confused: Failure to don a poppy now equates to harbouring antipathy towards the English people? What a load of absolute ********. My English girlfriend respects my non-wearing of the symbol. In fact, she doesn't even wear one herself!Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
What other "local practices" should James be obliged to adopt under this totalitarian English social contract of yours because he's "happy to take the money"? I suppose I'll have to do the same too...
Where'd you get the impression he doesn't like the British?Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Of course he would he is from Northern Ireland.
There is a huge difference between individual choice and being part of a team. Teams decide to make statements like this all the time, they wear black armbands and the whole team wears them. There are minutes silences. The point is that every other player from every other country managed to wear theirs. There is a difference between your personal view and representing your club. Sunderland decided they would do this, they are a public orgainsation representing the people of Sunderland, the vast majority of whom support wearing poppys.
I wouldnt have so much of an issue if he was English, but when you go to live in a foreign country you do so knowing you will have to adapt. It reminds me of British people going to live in Saudi and complaining they cant drink.
I agree this is based on McCleans quite understandable dislike of the British army, what I dont understand is why given that, did he decide to live in England, where there is a large (and growing) support for that organisation.
I was going to comment about a connection between those industrial cities and working class areas who would have produced the majority of recruits for the British Army from centuries gone and until recent. The connection between those and soccer is fairly obvious. So I don't feel the need to make the point. But these same people wouldn't have a clue about Northern Ireland and I would wonder how many know what the original poppy symbolised across Europe, not just Britain. Anyway I heard today some General - btw i worked for a company whose former main man was General Sir Mike Jackson(the derry folk will know him well), I never wore the poppy nor did I feel I had to/should and if they did I would have done exactly as James had done, granted with far less reasoning or feeling - say how its a symbol of all those who gave their life for the freedom we all enjoy today, that they provided freedom and saved many lives not limited to the two Great wars. That was enough for me really, that's what it has come to symbolise over here - the British Army.
But Sunderland made clear in a public statement that James had a personal choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Well, no, because that's the law in Saudi Arabia. No law in the UK obliges anyone to wear a poppy.Quote:
It reminds me of British people going to live in Saudi and complaining they cant drink.
Eh? He moved to England to earn a living. Why would it be of any concern to him that other people also living in England might hold positive sentiment for the British army? Why should that dictate his conduct?Quote:
I agree this is based on McCleans quite understandable dislike of the British army, what I dont understand is why given that, did he decide to live in England, where there is a large (and growing) support for that organisation.
No. In the case of McLean, being the only player in a team that is not wearing the poppy, he then becomes the one making the active statement. I dont give a sh!t about the poppy or whatever but I stand by my post, he seems to actively court controversy at every opportunity. Actually, he comes across as a complete pr!ck if I'm being honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
So he should follow suit if the rest of the team opt to do something? surely the point of the poppy is to wear it to show support for a particular cause. Wouldn't him wearing it when he doesn't agree with it kinda defeat the purpose of the thing in the first place?
If you apply that rule of logic, to say everyone in the EU, you're talking a lot of people. Sorry, but that's just rubbish.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Also there is no 'large (and growing) support' for the British Army.
To be fair, not least in Britain itself.
:rolleyes:
So let me give an example. Before the FAI cup final they play the national anthem. One of the teams has an English player who had a relative killed by the IRA. He decides not to stand for the anthem but goes to do some warm ups. What would the reaction be?
1 - He has a free choice and it is up to him. His reaction is understandable as the anthem signifies Irish nationalism which has caused him person pain.
2 - If he doesnt like the anthem he shouldnt play in Ireland?
McClean actively decided to offend a huge proportion of the population of the country in which he lives.
It's odd to hear some speak of this and then condemn those who avail of such freedom in their decision not to wear a poppy.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
And I'm pretty sure that's exactly what was running through his mind when he chose not to wear it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
"Today, for a bit of craic, I'm going to p*ss off half the UK where I live and work and am greatly exposed to the media".
Good job James.
yes..Quote:
Originally Posted by horton
In fact, that's exactly what it boils down to.
Funnily enough, Sammy Morrow stood out before the 2008 FAI Cup final as the only Derry player who opted not to face the tricolour during the anthem. Why should that be the business of anyone else?Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Hmm, I don't agree. Sunderland opted to make a statement and gave their players the choice to conform if they wished. James didn't and wore the same jersey he does every other week. He opted out of making a statement. I thought you'd commend him for that! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
And what of his manager's "statement"?
I don't agree with your interpretation of his approach to the issue and I'd imagine that, deep down, you don't either. :)
There are many problems with the poppy, I think when they sold off council housing to
private speculators they should have ditched the remembrance day lark, it's clear they don't remember anything, it's just a charade.
Even today they have some priority thing for soldiers or those who chose to work as slaves get priority in council
housing, but that misses the point in that they should provide housing for all who need it.
After all is it word fighting for a country that fails to provide housing for it's own people?
I think the best way to honour the memory of soldiers past would be to stop voting in governments that will enthusiastically send future generations out to war. But that's just me :)
The same huge proportion of the population who don't even follow soccer.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Let alone Sunderland or James McClean.
And who are blissfully unaware of both.
And even they were, wouldn't care anyway.
the ira is not our army.you cant possibly compare the two.nor could some player in that situarion were it ever to arise.
I've seen many people wearing a poppy around Manchester this week. I haven't worn one. Am I the one making the statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
McClean made it quite clear his reasons for not wearing the Poppy - out of respect for those killed at the hands of the British Army in his home City.
Those that fought in two World Wars, from Great Britain & Ireland, did so that people like McClean should have the freedom to make choices like whether or not they wanted to wear a Poppy.
I proudly wear my Poppy ( a little lapel one just like Sir Alex Ferguson) for a few days each year at this time as a mark of respect to our Glorious Dead - if that offends anyone, too bad. I respect the right of anyone, for whatever their reasons, not to wear a Poppy.
I was delighted to see The Taoiseach and The Tánaiste attend Remembrance Day Services in Enniskillen ( a particularly sombre occassion on the 25th Anniversary of the bombing at The Cenotaph there) and Belfast today. They were there to pay their respects to those from this island who paid the ultimate sacrifice in the World Wars. They displayed an understanding of our shared history.
"We Were Brothers"
I don't know, are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Did he, or are you assuming his reasoning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
There's a lot of rich talk on the bustling OWC McClean thread at the minute. What ever happened to keeping politics out of football, eh?...
Not at all. Just like James, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Maybe because a 'foreign' football club pays him hundreds of thousands of pounds a year to play football. He should at least be respectful of the people in the country in which he now lives/works. The Argentine players managed to do this. Mcclean comes over rather bitter and uneducated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
Arguable that James is guilty of bringing further political issues into football as a result of his stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
No and I've explained why. Did you make a conscious decision to go against what your teammates were doing? Once he did this he is the one making the statement. And a really ill informed one at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I wonder how he gets on with Conor Wickham...I'd guess there would be some interesting differences in opinion in that relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyh
But they gave their players the choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyh
Says who? And he has to do that by donning a poppy? Plenty of English people don't wear a poppy. Are they being disrespectful? :confused:Quote:
He should at least be respectful of the people in the country in which he now lives/works.
My tongue was firmly wedged in cheek, but that's football and politics for you. What do you expect when football is politicised?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Why should it matter what his team-mates were doing? The club decided to make a political statement and McClean opted out of it. There was no obligation placed upon him to wear a poppy. He fell foul of no rule, law or policy. What was ill-informed about such a decision?Quote:
No and I've explained why. Did you make a conscious decision to go against what your teammates were doing? Once he did this he is the one making the statement. And a really ill informed one at that.
Please explain how his decision is ill-informed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
His "statement" is ill-informed if he believes the poppy is specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army and that is his reason for not wearing it. His decision seems unnecessarily provocative.
And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.
But how? Millions of people don't wear a poppy in the UK. Millions don't care about that cause whatsoever. If anything McClean would be more likely to offend a huge proportion of a community in his place of birth (Northern Ireland) than where he currently lives, given his previous stance on various things - and I'm not sure how that fits with your 'when in Rome' theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
You haven't offered anything analogous to what McClean did - it's nowhere near the same as ex-pats in the Middle East or elsewhere.
Oh and...does anyone think he'll start Wednesday?
Adopt local practices ?Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Do you reckon that Eamon Zayed, whilst playing in Iran, should get himself involved in a few stonings of women or hangings of homosexuals ?
Maybe a few American/British flag burnings ?
Let's be completely honest here.. the wearing of the poppy has become politicised in recent years, and how many of us believe that politics and sport shouldn't mix.
I abhor the notion that players should have to "conform" to something they might not believe in, just to satisfy someone else.
In fact, I believe FIFA should step in and stop the FA "forcing" football teams to partake in "poppy" politics. It's my belief that all political symbols should be removed from sports jersies.
Now, you might argue that the players were honouring their fallen relatives. Well, what would you have said if Per Mertasacker or Lucas Podolski had worn a swastika yesterday to honour a dead relative of theirs ?
Mc Clean was right to say no yesterday. And all poppies should be removed from jersies in the future, so this stupid argument wouldn't have to take place.
If it isn't supportive of the British Army, who is it supportive of ?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
And, on another point, I don't think ex servicemen should have to rely on the British Legion or any other charity to look after them if they fall on hard times, especially if the hard times relate to their time in service. The British Army, and by extension the British Government sent them to war, they should look after them
<br><br>If it isn't supportive of the British Army, who is it supportive of ?<br><br>And, on another point, I don't think ex servicemen should have to rely on the British Legion or any other charity to look after them if they fall on hard times, especially if the hard times relate to their time in service. The British Army, and by extension the British Government sent them to war, they should look after them <br>Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
<br>
I'd rather the argument took place than have Clubs/players have the right to wear a Poppy on their shirt in Remembrance of our Fallen (if they so wish) removed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Insidetherock
His reason for not wearing one is obvious, and hardly needs repeating. I have never worn a poppy, and never will for similar, yet broader, reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
If his decision seems provocative, it is only because it has been made in a time when poppy wearing has become almost ubiquitous in Britain.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
That's me told then. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
The Fly, back bang on the issue there.
So why even get involved then?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
:rolleyes:
'Our'? Isn't today supposed to be about everyone who died?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
And one rather obvious, erm, typo above, also...
Who said he believed it to be "specifically and exclusively supportive of the British Army"? Would it matter anyway? How do you know what exactly he believes with regard to the symbolism behind the poppy? We all know the connotations of the symbol in Ireland. The poppy, whether rightly or wrongly, has long been perceived as a British political symbol in Ireland - largely a preserve of the unionist community - and its wearing is associated with general supportive sentiment for the British Army. If James doesn't wish to be seen to be expressing such sentiment, perhaps because of the British Army's past activities in his home city, can you fault him? If he's unaware of the fact that the poppy might also stand to remember, say, dead Irishmen who fought for Britain, so what? The former is reason enough for him to object, I should think.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
No need to resort to unwarranted ad hominem attacks either; the opinions expressed by posters disagreeing with you are still as valid as any other.Quote:
And to be honest, I don't particularly care about arguing anymore about this issue with a group of posters who only usually surface with opinions on subjects related to the relationships between ireland, northern Ireland and Britain.
Should players have the right to wear any political emblems they wish during play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Not sure on that one - for example, if an Irish Republican wanted to wear an Easter Lily during play at Easter time, I would certainly not be offended.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I do believe, strongly, that Clubs within the United Kingdom (and their players) should have the right to remember the Nation's Fallen by way of wearing a Poppy on their shirt, if they so wish, at this time of year.
I don't think that many Clubs and players in the United Kingdom will stop this honourable act of remembrance and respect on account of the sensitivities of Irish Nationalists/Republicans.