Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Unelected? Name one. This treaty was put together by elected officials including our own.

What in the flying **** is the political class?

What do we want?

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Seeing as how our "elected officials" didn't even read it (by their own admission) I don't see how they had much of a hand in drafting it. The impetus for this has always come from the European Commission (EC), who draft most of Europe's laws and are not elected but appointed. Think about it, the executive branch of the EU is not elected.The EC is deeply influenced by the European Round Table of Industrialists who are a "forum" or think tank comprising 45 CEO's of major multinational corporations. These are the interests the current version of the EU represents and had Lisbon been passed, more areas of policy would have passed under their control.

The political class? You know, those guys who make all the decisions.Class is probably not an accurate term, more caste but you get the idea.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

That said, I think that if the government put enough money and effort into it, and really tried, they could get a 'yes' vote.

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You serious? Do you realise how much money and effort went into this Yes campaign?

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I'm pro Europe. I'm for a federal Europe. But I'm for a democratic Europe, not one where unelected bureaucrats are calling the shots.

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Well you shafted your fellow Europeans voting no.

As it is, the EU is undemocratic. A country like Ireland has a disproportionate amount of power. And you voted to keep that in your belief that it is "democratic".

To me, the main reason the No vote one is because Irish people are selfish. We want to keep this imbalance in our favour. The EU should be run on the principle of democracy where each EU citizen has a vote. But we don't want that because we'll lose influence as a nation. We will continue to spit in the face of democracy and people on the No side will continue to proclaim Ireland as a democratic nation. ********.

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Originally Posted by superfrank

Well you shafted your fellow Europeans voting no.

As it is, the EU is undemocratic. A country like Ireland has a disproportionate amount of power. And you voted to keep that in your belief that it is "democratic".

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What a load of rubbish. The French and Dutch already voted against this thing in its previous form and I have seen messages of congratulations to the Irish from French, Dutch, Greek (who had a major protest in Athens against it when it was ratified there on Wednesday), German and English people. How is taking 105 policy areas out of the hands of elected governments and putting them into the hands of the unelected commission more democratic? About as Democratic as the DDR was! Thats real plus good doublespeak.

I still don't get how you can spout that rubbish!

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Originally Posted by superfrank

The EU should be run on the principle of democracy where each EU citizen has a vote.

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Er yes it should, but how many of them got to vote on the Lisbon Treaty? I think you don't understand the concept that the Treaty was pushing. It wasn't giving equal say to the citizens of Europe,it was giving extra powers to unelected commissioners from bigger countries.

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Originally Posted by superfrank

We will continue to spit in the face of democracy and people on the No side will continue to proclaim Ireland as a democratic nation. ********.

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lol!

We spat in the face of democracy by being the only country to give its citizens a vote! :D

The only thing I agree with you on is that the EU is undemocratic but this would have made it less democratic!

How hard are these concepts for you to grasp?
105 policy areas taken away from elected representatives and give to the jurisdiction of unelected commissioners.

The possibility of us being asked to vote for any further changes to the EU by referendum being removed - in effect allowing those unelected commissioners to do as they please from here on in.

487,000,000 Europeans denied the right to vote on the treaty.

The one country that allows its people to vote has the Treaty rejected by a clear majority!

Then you claim the No side are the ones spitting in the face of Democracy? Get a grip.

Nice establish a reduction in Commissioners once we got to 27 countries. We negotiated a deal equal to all other countries. The next negotiation will be the same or worse. Amazing the Yes side did not inform people of this as the days of permanent Commissioner already dead.

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Originally Posted by pete

Nice establish a reduction in Commissioners once we got to 27 countries. We negotiated a deal equal to all other countries. The next negotiation will be the same or worse. Amazing the Yes side did not inform people of this as the days of permanent Commissioner already dead.

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There is a method to their madness.

If they explained that, then they'd have to justify the undertaking they gave during the Nice debate that Ireland would NOT lose its commissionor for 130 years.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Er yes it should, but how many of them got to vote on the Lisbon Treaty? I think you don't understand the concept that the Treaty was pushing. It wasn't giving equal say to the citizens of Europe,it was giving extra powers to unelected commissioners from bigger countries.

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Eh? Since when was a distinction made between commissioners of different sized countries?

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Eh? Since when was a distinction made between commissioners of different sized countries?

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Sorry I did two versions of that post, deleted a part of it and replaced it with other stuff but left stuff in from the original version by mistake. Editing mishap.

If the debate on t.v and newspapers was half as informed and lively as this one on here it would have made for a better campaign for both sides,fair play lads.not sure ive seen a thread go to 35 pages either:).

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Seeing as how our "elected officials" didn't even read it (by their own admission) I don't see how they had much of a hand in drafting it. The impetus for this has always come from the European Commission (EC), who draft most of Europe's laws and are not elected but appointed. Think about it, the executive branch of the EU is not elected.

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Every member of the commission is an elected representative of the people, nominated to the commission as an expert in their area to act on behalf of the EU. That they aren't from one of the political parties you support does not make them unelected.

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Every member of the commission is an elected representative of the people, nominated to the commission as an expert in their area to act on behalf of the EU. That they aren't from one of the political parties you support does not make them unelected.

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Charlie McCreevy - what is he an expert in exactly? Who was he elected by?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Every member of the commission is an elected representative of the people, nominated to the commission as an expert in their area to act on behalf of the EU. That they aren't from one of the political parties you support does not make them unelected.

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That's downright silly. A person hasn't a mandate and should be considered unelected if they are outside their term of office or carrying out a role for which they not previously elected. Even the YES side accepted that during the debate. The good people of Hartlepool didn't elect Peter Mandalson to look after agricultural in Latvia.

Martin tried to getting around the argument by claiming that the commission is the EU's Civil Service. The Danish MEP he was debating the point with said that it is it's the only Civil Service in the world that initiates legislation.

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Originally Posted by jebus

I'm very disappointed that this island still has such an insular view on the world at large, and there's a large part of me hoping that the EU does push on with this and give Ireland an ultimatum of like it or lump, not the most democratic of outlooks I grant you, but then I don't trust the Irish public in voting (here, the abortion issue and the national elections have brought that on).

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The EU belongs to 500 million citizens, not 500 politicians in Brussels. Our vote was a vote for the freedom of citizens throughout the block. All citizens consider themselves Irish/Greek/Latvian/Czech, before European, and all citizens are going to want what's best for themselves. That applied not just here, but in France and Holland already, and is true right across the continent. Most national referendums would be defeated, plainly and simply, because it's wanted like a hole in the head by citizens. The bureaucrats need it, we don't.

My main reasons behind my vote, and votes in the future if required, are to do with sovereignty, democracy, and tax harmonisation. I simply don't believe that our tax rate will be unaffected. The document has been written in such a legal way, that there's bound to be loopholes in it exploited against this country by the big countries soon after adoption. I also felt obliged as a democrat to uphold the referenda results in France and Holland, which were ignored.

Barroso has told everyone to continue ratification. But this is more likely to deter ratification by other member states, than continue it. There will be enormous pressure on Brown and Klaus, among others to abandon it, as there is now no point in going ahead with it. Once one country says No, it creates a snowball effect. Suddenly, the others are not compelled to ratify it. If there are 2, 3 or more countries not ratifying it, it's not going to be a demand of "vote for it or else".

People 1-0 Politicians. They lost, and all the sulking here and in Europe isn't going to change it.

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Originally Posted by mypost

My main reasons behind my vote, and votes in the future if required, are to do with...

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fantastic! here we g lads, we can finally work out what we need to do to get a hypothetical "Lisbon II" passed!

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...sovereignty

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oh. You mean the concerns about the EU pushing abortions and going to war on our behalf and other makey-uppy things that popped in to some goon in Libertas' head. Well, maybe 2/3 won't be so bad...

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...democracy

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Dang. I forgot you don't like democracy, or "majoritarianism" as the No campaign refered to it. You'd rather your vote count for more than anyone elses', and you want Ireland to keep its commissioner all the time, unlike the other 27 states. Er, well I guess the EU are sort of attached to democracy. Well, dahamsta said we'd get just less than 1/2 of what we want. Maybe 1/3?

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...and tax harmonisation.

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Oh. Another thing which is completely fictional and which dozens of MEPs, etc have attested to its falsehood? Which the Referendum Commission felt compelled to specifically state that tax is something which we retain a veto on, and cannot be forced into accepting? Never mind (the/yet another) logical flaw that the big businesses you keep referring to as running the EU would more likely impose our tax on the other countries, than vice versa...

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The document has been written in such a legal way

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Wait, you've finally read it?,

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that there's bound to be loopholes in it exploited against this country by the big countries soon after adoption.

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Obviously every credible politician and industrial body on this island bows to your knowledge of legal documents. Why didn't you inform us sooner? Perhaps we could send you on a copy of Lisbon I and a few highlighters, and you could suggest some amendments.

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People 1-0 Politicians.

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This, unfortunately, is your problem. Most people see politicans as people like ourselves, who have proven themselves, if not describable as "trustworthy", then at least more trustworthy than you or I or their peerss for the job of making decisions for good of people in general. You've never backed a winning politician in your life, and you like it that way. You see them, as someone ludicrously called them earlier, as "the political class".

I'm not exactly weeping into my coffee that Lisbon was rejected, but I'm somewhat more comfortable about having voted Yes and not deserving the backslaps of these clowns.

http://www.ukip.org/ukip/index.php?o...=670&Itemid=57

http://www.bnp.org.uk/2008/06/irelan...lisbon-treaty/

http://www.frontnational.com/

The people who voted no are vindicated by the reaction to the vote.We pay for the politicians with our hard earned taxes so that when in elections or referenda we make our choices they will implement them.We do not expect them to turn around afterwards and say we dont like your choices this is what we are going to do.The business and political elites are doing very well out of the eu .Working peoples pay and conditions are being squeezed to the lowest common denominater.Because this does not effect the elites they have no empathy with their fellow citizens.Can you imagine the reaction in leinster house if i walked in with twenty eastern europeans and offered to do their jobs for twenty five per cent less.The squealling from the trough munchers would be heard on the moon.This is what is happening to ordinarg working people everyday the difference is that in our society these type of people dont matter and not allowed to have any influence.Well some of these people spoke yesterday

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

The people who voted no are vindicated by the reaction to the vote.We pay for the politicians with our hard earned taxes so that when in elections or referenda we make our choices they will implement them.We do not expect them to turn around afterwards and say we dont like your choices this is what we are going to do.The business and political elites are doing very well out of the eu .Working peoples pay and conditions are being squeezed to the lowest common denominater.Because this does not effect the elites they have no empathy with their fellow citizens.Can you imagine the reaction in leinster house if i walked in with twenty eastern europeans and offered to do their jobs for twenty five per cent less.

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I'd imagine you'd be laughed at, because government is not a business. Now, if you got the 20 eastern europeans elected as being reputable, trustworthy and skilled enough to run the local issues in a country that isn't their own, fair play to you, but...

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This is what is happening to ordinarg working people everyday the difference is that in our society these type of people dont matter and not allowed to have any influence.Well some of these people spoke yesterday

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...by "ordinary working people" I assume you mean unskilled or trade-trained workers who do the exact same job as the eastern European lads in the exact same living environment and yet want more money. If your quarrel with the EU is free movement of people, which the Lisbon treaty had nothing to do with in the first place, then I'm afraid that is one thing we either love or leave.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

I'm not exactly weeping into my coffee that Lisbon was rejected, but I'm somewhat more comfortable about having voted Yes and not deserving the backslaps of these clowns.

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oh, this is being celebrated by right wing and left wing and looney wing extremists everywhere. These guys seem to think the Irish people have had enough of monetary banking, of all things.
http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=273788
Actual quote:
"What with all the EU/American investment into Ireland the last 15-20 years, the Irish have all but forgot about what makes us Irish. Survival, enduring hardship, sense of community and dependence on neighbours etc..."
Down with quality of life! Subsistence for all!

[quote=GavinZac;962944]I'd imagine you'd be laughed at, because government is not a business. Now, if you got the 20 eastern europeans elected as being reputable, trustworthy and skilled enough to run the local issues in a country that isn't their own, fair play to you,
wow you must be in awe of the trough munchers in leinster house.Most are selected for their political parties because of family ties or knowing the right people.They get elected because of blind party loyalties.I hope that after this vote the electorate will pay much more attention to the issues.
Iwould be very confident that Icould get better skilled and better enlightened immigrants to do their part-time jobs for less cost to the taxpayer

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

This, unfortunately, is your problem. Most people see politicans as people like ourselves, who have proven themselves, if not describable as "trustworthy", then at least more trustworthy than you or I or their peerss for the job of making decisions for good of people in general. You've never backed a winning politician in your life, and you like it that way. You see them, as someone ludicrously called them earlier, as "the political class".

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That is hilarious. So your saying Bertie and all the people who backed him are trustworthy?
By the way they are not people like you and me, they are (mostly) career politicians and for them career comes before anything that is for the good of people in general.

...by "ordinary working people" I assume you mean unskilled or trade-trained workers who do the exact same job as the eastern European lads in the exact same living environment and yet want more money. If your quarrel with the EU is free movement of people, which the Lisbon treaty had nothing to do with in the first place, then I'm afraid that is one thing we either love or leave
From the above response i am going to guess that you have had the benefit of a good education and perhaps a good qualification[good luck to you but not everyone is that lucky]People that are not that lucky are entitled to be concerned about their pay and conditions.Also people that do not want to enter the dog eat dog world that is the business but are willing to do an honest days work need some protection from the race to the lowest wage that is happening now.If you pay your taxes and are law abiding surely you deserve some protection as a citizen otherwise why bother lets all go around with knives and guns and take what we want with might being right
I do not know how to quote individual segments of your post so hope you can get the jist of what Iam trying to say

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

That is hilarious. So your saying Bertie and all the people who backed him are trustworthy?

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Moreso than, for example, you. Apart from corruption, there's the trust that you actually have a clue what you're doing, which I'd imagine you wouldn't convince many of, or you'd have joined the cash cow yourself.

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By the way they are not people like you and me, they are (mostly) career politicians and for them career comes before anything that is for the good of people in general.

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No, they're not. Career politicians? The harshest criticism they come in for is conflicts of interests because of business interests and such. Besides, putting your own interests ahead of 'people in general' is generally not a good way to extend your life as a career politician.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

From the above response i am going to guess that you have had the benefit of a good education and perhaps a good qualification[good luck to you but not everyone is that lucky]People that are not that lucky

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Luck has nothing to do with it. We have free education in this country right up to bachelors degree. I was 'lucky' enough to even have a masters degree that was subsidised by those wage-lowering bashturds in the EU. If someone feels the inclination to step off the education conveyor belt because the construction industry happens to be booming or a foreign multinational opens a factory line in their town, they are perfectly entitled to do so, but...

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are entitled to be concerned about their pay and conditions.Also people that do not want to enter the dog eat dog world that is the business but are willing to do an honest days work need some protection from the race to the lowest wage that is happening now.

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... they can have little complaint with the reality that if someone else, regardless of whether he is Lithuanian or Polish, can do the same job or better, for more competitive wages, whilst paying the same bills that your or I do, then the factory, or site or whoever are perfectly entitled under EU law, in any EU state, to pick them over you.

Complain all you like about low wages, but your case doesn't really stand up if someone else is quite content on those wages. Thats how a union works; unfortunately there isn't much unity because there isn't much validity to most of the complaints.

Again, however, this is all off topic because freedom of movement for EU citizens has nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty and if someone voted No to this treaty on that basis then they were either malicious or lied to.

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If you pay your taxes and are law abiding surely you deserve some protection as a citizen otherwise why bother lets all go around with knives and guns and take what we want with might being right

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I have no idea what this has to do with anything. People need protection against crime. EU nationals working here is not a crime, and if you feel it should be, then you have far bigger concerns about the EU than the Lisbon Treaty's allocation of votes.