Eligibility proposal

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20/11/2007, 2:53 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Gather Round clearly saw the comment for what it was and responded accordingly

I saw it as a loaded question actually. Same as Blanche.

Well, your response was much appreciated Gather Round.

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.
20/11/2007, 3:01 PM
antrimgreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The Daily Mirror is just a populist rag. Most I spoke to agree Sammy was MOTM, as was backed up by the Poll on OWC.

As it happens, Craigan or Feeney were most peoples alternative choice.

As for Healy, whilst he tried as hard as ever, he wasn't getting too much change from the big Danish defenders, who were very physical, and certainly wasn't helped by the atrocious conditions, until he produced a typical piece of magic that was quite simply unstoppable.

Ealing calm down i do agree that Sammy was your best player against Denmark, i was just saying not everyone agreed i.e that rag you mentioned. But you have to agree he should have walked and a penalty given, if the shoe was on the other foot you would be calling for FIFA to change the result.;)
20/11/2007, 3:03 PM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

Its hard to understand you being 100% of two nationalities. Here is a question that might help to figure out how 'Irish' you are? Would you consider that the Irish language is an important part of an Irish person's cultural heritage and should be on an equal footing with the English language by anyone who claims to be 100% Irish? Note: I don't mean that you need to be able to speak Irish to be 100% Irish - just respect those Irish people who feel it is important to Irish culture and not object to signposts in both languages etc. that type of thing.

What do you think the reaction at Windsor if a verse of GSTQ was sung in Irish? (only a verse and could be put up phenetically on a screen - it has been done elsewhere!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

Well, your response was much appreciated Gather Round.

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

Havnt gotten involved in this til now but I dont see how your views on the Irish language affect your Irishness in any way.

I know plenty of people, one who posts on here, with no interest(in fact a strong dislike) for he irish language, does not see the point of it being taught etc. He's from Cork, does that mean he's not Irish?

It is your opinion that the language is a key definer of the Irish nation, that doesn't make it a fact.

Personally I went through Gaelscoils, and now teach in one and am fluent. Yet I dont see how your position on the Irish language has any influence whatsoever on your irishness.

I am Irish because I was born on the island of Irish, just as blanchflower and co were. There is no 'cultural test' to define how Irish you are. You simply are.
20/11/2007, 3:03 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Gather Round clearly saw the comment for what it was and responded accordingly

I saw it as a loaded question actually. Same as Blanche.

LOL!

Well that wasn't reflected in your answer which was an utterly different tone to Blaches.

I think you're both being a touch paranoid tbh, I think it's a legitimate question and not political at all. Why do you consider it loaded? The Irish language is undoubtedly part of what defines Irish culture despite the sparseness of it's use as a first language. Those of the unionist persuasion who would have had difficulties with the language in the past always seemed to me to be more of the 'being born in a stable doesn't make one a horse' persuasion and to also have difficulties around accepting their 'Irishness' which the pair of you don't seem to.
20/11/2007, 3:17 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

LOL!
Why do you consider it loaded? The Irish language is undoubtedly part of what defines Irish culture...[past] difficulties around accepting their 'Irishness' which the pair of you don't seem to [share]

Loaded for the reason Blanche suggested. I'm not at all paranoid about that specifically or the subject on this thread generally, ie some NI players going to play for you. It's a hit, but we'll get over it, and good luck to them.

It's part of Irishness, but not an essential part the absence of which excludes anyone.

Aye, I've no problem being Irish. I quite like it.
20/11/2007, 3:32 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Going to Spain, Gather round?

Alas not. But while my effective semi-retirement from watching us coincides with excellent results, I ain't complaining ;)

My representative, Ulster Seamus reports an excellent turnout in Las Palmas where he is currently working on a suntan. The bsatard.

I'll doubtless bump into him when I arrive tomorrow.:)
20/11/2007, 3:42 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

Havnt gotten involved in this til now but I dont see how your views on the Irish language affect your Irishness in any way.

I know plenty of people, one who posts on here, with no interest(in fact a strong dislike) for he irish language, does not see the point of it being taught etc. He's from Cork, does that mean he's not Irish?

It is your opinion that the language is a key definer of the Irish nation, that doesn't make it a fact.

Personally I went through Gaelscoils, and now teach in one and am fluent. Yet I dont see how your position on the Irish language has any influence whatsoever on your irishness.

I am Irish because I was born on the island of Irish, just as blanchflower and co were. There is no 'cultural test' to define how Irish you are. You simply are.

Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!

I know lots of Irish people who say they hate the Irish language (mostly because of poor teaching imo). None of them object to signposts with place names in both Irish and English in Ireland. Now, in NI you will find some unionists actively objecting to dual signage and that to me is rejecting their 'Irish' cultural heritage, most likely to feel more 'British'. You don't have two 'competing' national identities in Cork.

I consider all people born on the Island of Ireland to be Irish and its good to see that Blanch & Gather Round have no problems with accepting their Irish cultural heritage.
20/11/2007, 3:58 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!

Do you think Australians or Americans have difficulty in "defining their nationality" because they speak English. Would it be useful for them to be able to speak Aboriginal or Native American languages?
20/11/2007, 4:11 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Do you think Australians or Americans have difficulty in "defining their nationality" because they speak English. Would it be useful for them to be able to speak Aboriginal or Native American languages?

That's an unbelievable statement and a new low. Where did anyone mention anything about you being able to speak Irish? The point was about a recognition of the language not fluency. I assume you're acting the WUM or at least being very facetious.

To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?
20/11/2007, 4:14 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

It was a loaded question to the extent that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

Unless a proficiency in Irish is some sort of pre-requisite, as with the Civil Service or Teaching etc, I fail to see what it has to do with Eligibility (or otherwise) for either Irish football team.

Separate thread?
20/11/2007, 4:17 PM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Nonsense. A Scot is no less a Scot because Scotland is in the UK. An Englishman no less an Englishman, etc.

And a Yorkshireman is no less British aswell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I believe we were talking about identity before that. I only referred to 'identity crisis' because you - or someone else - had unfairly introduced the idea.

I think the general argument before you popped in was citizenship as a criteria for playing for Ireland. You brought up the identity crisis to rubbish someone's identity. Yet you want the same respect for an equally mixed bag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Your comments indicate that you have a problem with anyone who doesn't conform to your simplistic and binary understanding of identity. I think it would be more reasonable to conclude that your limited understanding, and not my identity, is "pathetic".

As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality. Like being Yorkshireman and British. One's a nationality, the other just the gaff I'm from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

And? In none of those quotes did I tell anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country! Please stop making things up.

You didn't need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Strange question. The British population is the British population - made up of all who live there.

Sorry, I meant English (although all four 'countries' have had a dig over the 'grannys' at some time - my favourite being one welsh manager - Mike England? - when his team had about three players with no Welsh connections).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I don't think NI should pick players with no connection to NI. And, if you accept that you can't have it both ways, then you can't claim a figure of 1/19th of the population.

I couldn't care less who you choose. Go trawl Bongo Bongo Land for all I care. You might find someone with more Irish connections than some of the players you currently have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I say? Your behaviour indicates that you are struggling to engage in a rational discussion. I said the NI eligibility was stricter than the Republic's. That is a fact.

And once you accepted the grannies the Republic's became stricter than yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I have never said that we are on the moral high ground.

Again you don't need to, when you say along the lines of 'we didn't have as many grannies as you'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

No. When I refer to ROI I only refer to the 26 counties. When I say Ireland, I mean ... well, Ireland (all 32 counties).

You can call it the 26C. The name of the place is Ireland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

You deny that Great Britain, Ireland and neighbouring isles were known as the British Isles? You deny that Great Britain and Ireland were once part of a "greater entity" (i.e. the UK of GB & Ireland)?

Typical British. Claim something that isn't yours as your own. Like the English channel, and Mount Everest. As for that 'greater entity', you mean that 120 year disaster that came about when a sectarian parliament representing maybe 10 -15% of the population still needed to be bribed to join it. You make it sound like it was a partnership. LOL :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You win, Lopez. You've dragged me far beyond rational debate, past irrational debate, even past anger, frustration and indeed outrage*.

*By his contention that someone is more "truly" Irish for possessing Nationalist views than someone with, say, Unionist views, or by denying people the right to be both Irish and British, or by gratuitously ascribing an "identity crisis" to such people, I can only conclude that Lopez is desperate to compensate for the nagging fear that his having been born and brought up amongst all these Cockernees means that he is in reality somewhat less of an Irishman than those of us privileged and lucky enough to have been born and brought up in Ireland itself, in circumstances where we were free to choose our own identity, Nationality and politics, entirely as it suited us. Sad.

I've been missing your horsesh*te. Good that you can spare a piece of your mind as I know there isn't much to it. Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are. ;)
20/11/2007, 4:18 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by antrimgreen

But you have to agree he should have walked and a penalty given, if the shoe was on the other foot you would be calling for FIFA to change the result.;)

No, I don't agree Sammy should have walked and a penalty given. But I do agree that had it been a Danish player, of course it should have been a Peno and a Red Card.

I'm a football fan, after all...;)
20/11/2007, 4:27 PM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

It's not political views that makes them less Irish. It's relegating Ireland to a region of another country, and opting for citizenship of another country that does

Only part of Ireland is 'relegated' within another country with separate nationality. In no reasonable way does this make us less Irish. I don't really see where you can go with this one, Lopez?

I'm going along a purely nationality road. No hidden questions about party politics, language, musical tastes etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

[you are 100% Irish but consider yourself British

I consider myself 100% both. What's da problem? It's entirely reasonable and logical.

I thought you considered yourself 100% Northern Irish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

[People didn't take 'the Charlton team' seriously due to ignorance and jealousy

Broadly agreed, although don't assume all the jealous were ignorant. They played to their strengths, sometimes it wasn't pretty (not entirely different to the current NI team ;) )

We played the best team available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

...I even had time for some inane pidgin-Spanish banter with Lopez ;).

It was basically 'Donde puedo obtener un principe Alberto?' Must admit Spanish in a Northern Irish accent is quite sexy.
20/11/2007, 4:29 PM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

Well the Irish State seem to think the Irish language is important - hence it is now recognised as our first language in the EU. In my school years, Irish was never my best subject, but it has been useful in definining my nationality when travelling (really trying to explain that although I spoke English, I'm not English) by stating that Irish people have their own language and saying a few words that no one understood (nearly everyone has a few words of English)!

I know lots of Irish people who say they hate the Irish language (mostly because of poor teaching imo). None of them object to signposts with place names in both Irish and English in Ireland. Now, in NI you will find some unionists actively objecting to dual signage and that to me is rejecting their 'Irish' cultural heritage, most likely to feel more 'British'. You don't have two 'competing' national identities in Cork.

I consider all people born on the Island of Ireland to be Irish and its good to see that Blanch & Gather Round have no problems with accepting their Irish cultural heritage.

Whether the Irish state feels its important or not isn't really relevant as agreeing with the Irish state isnt a pre-requisite to being Irish.

This is your quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

that if someone does not respect a key definer of the Irish nation, ie., its language (above politics imho) I would wonder as to how they could consider themselves to be Irish.

I dont see how rejecting Irish in Cork should be seen any differently as rejecting Irish in the North unless that person specifically rejects it on the basis that they dont want to be Irish.

In general I dont think an opinion ir lack of respect for the language or any other aspect of our culture has any affect on whether someone is Irish.

Anyone who is born on this island is Irish, as well as anything else they consider themselves i.e. UK.

What people define as 'Irish culture' has no effect on that.

I am fluent in Irish, play camogie, support my local football team, even did Irish dancing......am I any more Irish than Blanchflower and co? No, not at all. None of those things affect whether you are Irish are not. They are aspects of our past/culture people can choose to relate with and respect.
20/11/2007, 4:32 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by micls

I am fluent in Irish, play camogie, support my local football team, even did Irish dancing......am I any more Irish than Blanchflower and co?

if you have red hair, freckles and eat tons of spuds I'd say you were the most Irish person ever...
20/11/2007, 4:32 PM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?

Plenty people like that here with British passports. :D Always cussed. Never mind the English that move to Spain and don't learn the lingo. Unlike GR here: 'Aye, aye, aye! Me duele mi pija. Creia que Principe Alberto era el marido de Reina Vitoria de Inglaterra?'
20/11/2007, 4:33 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

That's an unbelievable statement and a new low.

My goodness.:eek: Why is it unbelievable and why is it "a new low"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Where did anyone mention anything about you being able to speak Irish?

What do you mean? I don't think anyone has mentioned anything to me about being able to speak Irish.:confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

The point was about a recognition of the language not fluency.

And? So what? My question remains valid - would it be helpful to an American or Australian to be able to recognise Native American or Aboriginal languages?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

I assume you're acting the WUM or at least being very facetious.

Neither - I'm just curious about the implied point that it is difficult for an English-speaker to explain that they are not English and that being able to speak Irish (in the case of an Irish person) is helpful in explaining that one is not English. In my experience, I have never had such difficulty, hence my curiosity.

Since Australians and Americans, by and large, also speak English but are not English, I'm asking if janeymac thinks it would be helpful for them to be able to speak (sorry, recognise) Aboriginal or Native American languages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

To turn that around (which I wasn't going to do) do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else?

Sadly, some racists might never accept them as English, no matter how many generations they've been resident but I don't think that, generally speaking, there would be any difficulty in them being accepted as English. Indeed, I think it would be taken for granted.

Why do you ask, because I don't see how this is relevant - Janeymac was talking about people who aren't English and don't want to be thought of as English.
20/11/2007, 4:34 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are. ;)

Can't make Las Palmas, but if I there, it would still say citizen of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (quite appropriate, since I would be there to follow Northern Ireland). As such, it may fairly be described as an "Irish Passport", since it is issued by the Government of one part of
Ireland, to an Irishman from that same part of Ireland.

Which, since it is a mere document, used primarily by me for travel purposes, does not change or affect my status as an Irishman, born and bred. Which is why if I ever decided to apply for an Irish Passport issued by the Government of the other part of Ireland, my status as an Irishman born and bred would remain equally unchanged and unaffected.

Then again, possessing two Passports should not be a problem for anyone who is entirely comfortable with his own identity, as I am. ;)
20/11/2007, 4:35 PM
micls

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

if you have red hair,

No

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

freckles

Some

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

and eat tons of spuds

Yes :D
20/11/2007, 4:46 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

And a Yorkshireman is no less British aswell.

Did someone say that he was?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

I think the general argument before you popped in was citizenship as a criteria for playing for Ireland. You brought up the identity crisis to rubbish someone's identity..

I didn't - I was responding to others making allegations of identity crises.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality.

And presumably you think somene who is Irish and British is somehow "less" Irish than someone who is Irish only. That is the chauvinistic, ugly exclusivist attitude to which I object. I do not accept you as an authority to tell me or anyone else that I am "less" Irish because I am also British.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

You didn't need to.

Of course. I didn't "need" to because I don't "need" to say things I don't believe. I never [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]told anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country. To do so would be nonsensical, given that passports are only available to citizens.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

Sorry, I meant English (although all four 'countries' have had a dig over the 'grannys' at some time - my favourite being one welsh manager - Mike England? - when his team had about three players with no Welsh connections).

Still don't understand - the English population is the English population, made up of those who live there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

I couldn't care less who you choose.

Maybe you don't, but that doesn't alter the fact that, in my view, NI shouldn't pick players with no connection to NI, and, therefore, it is not inconsistent for me to have the same opinion about ROI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

And once you accepted the grannies the Republic's became stricter than yours.

Again, that doesn't alter the fact that in the 80s and 90s the NI criteria were stricter. It seems that you now accept this point, which previously you have been arguing against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

You can call it the 26C. The name of the place is Ireland.

If, by "Ireland" you mean the 26C, then its name is a misnomer, as I've pointed out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

Typical British. Claim something that isn't yours as your own. Like the English channel, and Mount Everest. As for that 'greater entity', you mean that 120 year disaster that came about when a sectarian parliament representing maybe 10 -15% of the population still needed to be bribed to join it. You make it sound like it was a partnership. LOL

I'll take that as a "no": you don't deny that Great Britain[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana], Ireland and neighbouring isles were known as the British Isles? Nor that Great Britain and Ireland were once part of a "greater entity" (i.e. the UK of GB & Ireland).[/FONT][/COLOR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

Tell you what Ealing, remember when you pull out your passport at Las Palmas airport take a good long look at it. The country on it tells me everything I need to know about how 'Irish' you are.

Ironically, when Ealing does that he will read: "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"! :D

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