Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

After reflecting on the match, my player ratings. I think it's important to call a spade a spade and not hide behind the manager for what was some horrific individual performances. Paddy Kenny, Clinton Morrison and Andy O'Brien never played for Ireland again after the 5-2 Cyprus fiasco, I'd be quite happy to not see some of these guys again too.

Westwood - 4 - Six great strikes that he wouldn't have realistically been expected to stop although we've come to expect our goalkeepers to rescue the situation throughout Shay's time. Beaten comfortably for all of them, with such a quantity you'd hope your keeper would pull out something exceptional for at least one of them.

Coleman - 3 - Lively yet unproductive in attack, woeful in defence. He'll be having nightmares about Reus who humiliated him all night long. It's been a while since a team targetted our RB instead of LB but tonight was the night.

O'Shea - 2 - No composure, gave away a stupid penalty that by some miracle wasn't given and offered no leadership as a senior player when we desperately needed it. Confirmed that without the big 4 we have no leaders on the pitch.

O'Dea - 3 - Had a decent first half handling Klose then fell to pieces early in the 2nd with a reckless challenge and soon after being exposed for pace.

Ward - 5 - When Ward is your best defender on the night you know your back is in serious trouble. I'm usually critical of him but honestly thought he did alright last night. Kept Muller quiet and decent in possession.

McGeady - 2 - One of his poorest games in a long time, like O'Shea looks like another guy who'll be a senior player in name only for his. Lost Schmelzer for the first goal which set everything in motion for Germany. A very poor player for a team with low possession despite being our most talented on paper and only one who is Champions League standard.

Fahey - 3 - Supposedly tasked with man marking Ozil which he did successfully early on, but like everything else in the team was unraveling at the seams by halftime. At nearly 30 and a squad player in the championship you'd have to wonder if he has any future at this level.

Andrews - 3 - Lacked his usual energy as Schweinstieger ran rings around him.

McCarthy - 3 - Held his own in the first half in a midfield that successfully contained Germany for about 30 minutes but worryingly and embarrassingly looked lazy and disinterested in the 2nd half. His token press effort on Kroos for his 2nd goal makes me wonder about his commitment. That kind of not being bothered attitude is not something we're familiar with on Irish teams.

Cox - 1 - Counted him giving the ball away 4 times in the first half, at points in the game when we were still in the contest. Most of those mistakes severely punished leading Cox to play a key role in our attacks and possession retention breaking down. Why Lawrence is in exile with Duff retired, Brady too young and McClean not trusted I'd love to know.

Walters - 6 - Battled and did all he could with no support whatsoever. Perhaps was under instruction but was burning energy recklessly in the first half hour, was just no way he'd last at that tempo and predictably struggled in the 2nd half to be as effective.


--Subs--

Long - 3 - Offered nothing but a petulant tackle.

Keogh - 6 - Once again made a solid impact off the bench, amidst the despair it was nice to see someone with a positive attitude drawing Neuer's first save and then a consolation goal that was well..no consolation. But did what little he could in the dire circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

He's as much a winger as Robbie Brady is an international caliber player who was the only alternative.

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This is not just about 1 game.

He played him in Poland as well ahead of James McClean.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

Yes O'Dea is better, Clark is the flakiest of flaky defenders whos also playing in a dreadful team and has been 7th choice CB for us for a very good reason.

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O'Dea is not as good as Clark. Did you watch him play for Celtic or Leeds?

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

When exactly? Coleman had dreadful form/fitness last season and never warranted a callup. He had one good season 2 years ago when he was competing with a Man Utd RB and Duff/McGeady. Bearing in mind last night Reus and Schmelzer had a similar number of caps as Coleman, didn't see them hiding behind excuses of not being blooded enough.

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Coleman acquitted himself well in the circumstances I thought. Should have got more game time before last night like many others.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

Do we need to cycle through the entire roster and change managers before you accept these players are poor against strong opposition?

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Yes we need to change the manager. His tactics are not good enough.

Good players there and Trap is not making them better players. Bye Bye Trap.

Changing the manager will make no difference. We simply do not have the players. Those people who've been calling for a change have also been calling for a change to a 5-man midfield, with Keane to be dropped. Well - that's what we did last night and look where it got us - 30% possession.

As was brutally shown in the Euro's, the British way of playing football has never looked so out of touch with the modern game. Our players lack basic skills, maintaining possession would help...

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Originally Posted by rellik

Changing the manager will make no difference. We simply do not have the players. Those people who've been calling for a change have also been calling for a change to a 5-man midfield, with Keane to be dropped. Well - that's what we did last night and look where it got us - 30% possession.

As was brutally shown in the Euro's, the British way of playing football has never looked so out of touch with the modern game. Our players lack basic skills, maintaining possession would help...

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Granted we don't have great players but I honestly think that a new manager (who has a proven record in man management) will get more out of what we have. Trap has proven he his little or no respect for the players not in his match day squad and has been selecting lower quality players when there are in form players available(who often play at a higher level than those he selected) If Trap had any respect for the job he would resign, can't see the FAI sacking him as it will be admitting they are wrong and I'd imagine it would involve a huge pay off.

Anyhow my verdict on last night

Andrews tried hard all night and Fahey kept ozil at bay although this probably give other like Reus & Kross more freedom. Cox was useless on the wing(but its not his position), McGeady was to fault for at least the 1st goal the less said about Coleman & McCarthy both tried hard but was getting very little support same with walters. O'Shea, O'Dea and Ward the better, Westwood should of done better for one or tow of the goals but when he the Germans were attacking as much you can't really lay too much blame on his shoulder. Long was decent when he came on and proved he should of been on from the start , Keogh did well to take the goal but didn't do much else, Brady gave the assist for the goal but didn't have a chance to make any more impact.

Don't think I'm forgetting anyone

I'd agree with Harry that Coleman acquitted himself decently in that shambles.
But there's no point in assessing how our midfield players rated or Walters up front rated, trying to get his head to a Westwood lofted ball after lofted ball, against players who easily had him matched.
We had a decent enough 5 man midfield who were not set up play as they are well capable of. In fact the way they were set up conjured a chaotic ensemble which set a new lowest common denominator. What was the point of having our ball player Fahey run around after Ozil? or Westwood hoofing the ball over the midfield. No wonder McGeady had a nightmare game in that chaos.
Trap clearly cannot organize the available players into a unit, nor is he prepared to see us play any game other than a game where hoofing is the priority.
The argument against the individual merits of our players at this standard fall flat when evidently 5th and 6th seeded teams can be set up to play football.
Andrews looks a bit thin, gives a new perspective to the expression 'skin and bone'.

Trap not contemplating the sack. The heat is now on Delaney to show leadership which will not happen.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/inter...ting-the-sack/

There's no way the FAI can afford to sack him.

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Originally Posted by rellik

Changing the manager will make no difference. We simply do not have the players. Those people who've been calling for a change have also been calling for a change to a 5-man midfield, with Keane to be dropped. Well - that's what we did last night and look where it got us - 30% possession.

As was brutally shown in the Euro's, the British way of playing football has never looked so out of touch with the modern game. Our players lack basic skills, maintaining possession would help...

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As I have said it doesn't matter how many are in the middle if the instructions are hit it long time after time.

How many times did the full back receive the ball from the keeper last night.

Honestly don't think Trap knows how to operate in a formation other than 4-4-2.

If you guys seriously believe a manager with Trap's experience and medals is setting up his team so that his back five have been told to bypass the five man midfield and hoof the ball up to the lone striker then you're mental - that is simply not the case.

Last night's game, alongside the Croatia, Italy and Spanish games exposed the players inability to maintain possession. Players are giving the ball away when they are under very little pressure. We see this week in, week out in the lower ranks of the EPL and Barclays Championship.

Trap has proven he can do the job with limited resources and a bit of luck, but he is not a miracle worker. The game has moved on in the last five years and Ireland has not managed to replace the resources we once had. Second place is still possible and I really do not think changing the manager at this stage will improve our chances, or the basic skills of the squad.

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Originally Posted by rellik

Last night's game, alongside the Croatia, Italy and Spanish games exposed the players inability to maintain possession. Players are giving the ball away when they are under very little pressure. We see this week in, week out in the lower ranks of the EPL and Barclays Championship.

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Norwich City's Wes Hoolahan ain't bad at moving the ball about.

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Originally Posted by harry crumb

This is not just about 1 game.

He played him in Poland as well ahead of James McClean.


O'Dea is not as good as Clark. Did you watch him play for Celtic or Leeds?



Coleman acquitted himself well in the circumstances I thought. Should have got more game time before last night like many others.



Yes we need to change the manager. His tactics are not good enough.

Good players there and Trap is not making them better players. Bye Bye Trap.

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He played the tactic everyone wanted last night with attacking fullbacks, a strong aerial striker and 3 in the centre mid. The team was set up fine bar Cox out wide, the players were just abysmal. Critics have changed their tune from criticising Trap for being conservative to now doing too little too late and reaping what he sowed from previous conservatism when he's no longer being conservative. It's real adaptive criticism that'll be shaped whatever the outcome to lambast the manager, this is the ugly face of the modern soccer culture in Ireland.
There has to come a point where people stop blaming the manager for everything and open their eyes at how poor the players themselves are, and indeed how poor the standard of the EPL is on the European stage these days. The EPL is being left behind by the better coaching in La Liga and the Bundesliga and even then our players are struggling to have any impact in a sinking ship league.

It is clear that people are going to be stubborn on this and continue blaming Trap for everything until he goes, but when somebody else comes in and the same thing is happening what will you say then? When is the point where you'll accept that these players are very poor, what needs to happen for you to reach that plateau? I'll bet you haven't even considered the possibility.

If the Trap doesn't want the players to bypass the MF why does he let it happen time after time?

He could bollock em or drop em. He's clearly content with this policy of giving the ball back to the opposition. If Liverpool players under Brendan Rodgers started ignoring his demands for playing on the floor do you think he'd not say anything?

These guys are professional footballers. They should be able to pass, move & control a ball.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

It is clear that people are going to be stubborn on this and continue blaming Trap for everything until he goes, but when somebody else comes in and the same thing is happening what will you say then? When is the point where you'll accept that these players are very poor, what needs to happen for you to reach that plateau? I'll bet you haven't even considered the possibility.

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The players not being very good and the manager not getting the best out of the players are not mutually exclusive.

How bad will things have to get before you will consider the possbility that Trap, even with the limited resources available to him, should be doing a better job?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

The players not being very good and the manager not getting the best out of the players are not mutually exclusive.

How bad will things have to get before you will consider the possbility that Trap, even with the limited resources available to him, should be doing a better job?

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A better job than 2 playoffs, a major tournament and max points from the non-Germany games so far? No, actually I don't believe we're capable of better.

What needs to happen before I think we should be doing better? Losing at home to Sweden, getting less than 4 home/away to Austria or dropping any points home or away to Kazakhstan or the Faroes would be the specifics.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

He played the tactic everyone wanted last night with attacking fullbacks, a strong aerial striker and 3 in the centre mid. The team was set up fine bar Cox out wide, the players were just abysmal. Critics have changed their tune from criticising Trap for being conservative to now doing too little too late and reaping what he sowed from previous conservatism when he's no longer being conservative. It's real adaptive criticism that'll be shaped whatever the outcome to lambast the manager, this is the ugly face of the modern soccer culture in Ireland.
There has to come a point where people stop blaming the manager for everything and open their eyes at how poor the players themselves are, and indeed how poor the standard of the EPL is on the European stage these days. The EPL is being left behind by the better coaching in La Liga and the Bundesliga and even then our players are struggling to have any impact in a sinking ship league.

It is clear that people are going to be stubborn on this and continue blaming Trap for everything until he goes, but when somebody else comes in and the same thing is happening what will you say then? When is the point where you'll accept that these players are very poor, what needs to happen for you to reach that plateau? I'll bet you haven't even considered the possibility.

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I agree with one thing, the team was set up fine is terms of formation. It was the choice of players and the positions they were used in that was a key problem. Odds suggested we were always going to lose the game but from a damage limitation purpose for the fans we deserved more.

Firstly, despite there league position, Villa are an EPL team, they play against top quality opposition week in week out. Clark has got a contract there and starts, this is far more than O Dea has managed. His selection was an error and it was glaringly obvious.

Secondly there was the midfield. They completely lacked direction. Perhaps a combination of the language barrier and first time using the tactics, combined with Trap not watching players properly. McCarthy has played the deep lying sitting role for wigan very adequately on numerous occasions. He has marked Gerrard and Lampard among others and not given them a sniff. If anyone was to pick up Ozil it should of been him. Fahey has played in the whole and on the wing on the other hand and he was tasked with the job. Whilst we had 3 in the middle, fahey was losing Ozil at every opportunity and Andrews and McCarthy were constantly pointing and not picking runners and giving them far too much space. Had Trap been more familiar with the players he may have set them up different. McCarthy was supporting Walters alot of the time, Hoolahan is a better available option for this.
Cox is not a winger, all the hard work in the world and limited pace does not make up for poor positional sense. He was constantly the wrong side of his man in defence and only once up with the attack when we broke, not to mention his sloppiness in possession. In my opinion Fahey should of been out there to track with intelligence and retain the ball when had it at feet.
McGeady? Coleman should of played right wing and perhaps kelly behind. Coleman offers more in defense and probably attack at this stage. I'm sorry to say Aiden is a lost cause. Not even his dribbling is admirable anymore.

Then there are the players. Trap has lost the players. It was evident in their body language, their actions in possession and there lack of movement off the ball. He has stripped them of belief, freedom to express themselves and the result is they dont enjoy it and don't want to play for him. A conscious or sub-conscious effort to get him the sack?? I don't know. Either way the fans don't deserve the rubbish served up last night.

My hopes are a win on tuesday, how ugly? I don't care. Hopefully then we can part ways with the manager and get someone new in to get the players and fans onside (not that I think the fans have behaved in anyway badly towards the team/management). There is actually a great deal more talent available than has been in previous years. Some may be out of our budget but im sure an arrangement can be made with one of them. I'm not saying there world beaters but at this stage Coyle, McCarthy, McDermitt, Redknapp (far fetched) and even curbishly have to be better options for at least the remainder of the campaign.

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Originally Posted by Manblue

Secondly there was the midfield. They completely lacked direction. Perhaps a combination of the language barrier and first time using the tactics, combined with Trap not watching players properly. McCarthy has played the deep lying sitting role for wigan very adequately on numerous occasions. He has marked Gerrard and Lampard among others and not given them a sniff. If anyone was to pick up Ozil it should of been him. Fahey has played in the whole and on the wing on the other hand and he was tasked with the job. Whilst we had 3 in the middle, fahey was losing Ozil at every opportunity and Andrews and McCarthy were constantly pointing and not picking runners and giving them far too much space. Had Trap been more familiar with the players he may have set them up different. McCarthy was supporting Walters alot of the time, Hoolahan is a better available option for this.

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In fairness, Fahey didn't do such a bad job. None of them did defensively. Ozil's influence in the first half was reasonably neglible. Fahey's man marking did actually have the affect of nullifying Ozil to a certain extent - probably was he just swapped positions with Khedira, who then swapped with Schweinsteiger. Their interchanging is just great to watch. Andrews and McCarthy were doing a lot of pointing, and I agree that's partly down to the manager not really preparing them for the job they had at hand. But it's also because those German midfielders as a unit are a cut above anything Andrews or McCarthy have faced.

Ultimately I don't think the middle three would've stemmed it no matter what roles they were playing. They were overran by a phenomenal bunch - and we shipped three in ten minutes when we went just two in the middle.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

A better job than 2 playoffs, a major tournament and max points from the non-Germany games so far?

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Can we please move on from this argument? We have been poor in competitive games since Paris 2009, and our last 5 games have been shocking. Beating Armenia, Macedonia and Estonia is nothing to get excited about. And your "max points from the non-Germany games" means the game in Astana.... are we supposed to be satisfied with that too?

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

What needs to happen before I think we should be doing better? Losing at home to Sweden, getting less than 4 home/away to Austria or dropping any points home or away to Kazakhstan or the Faroes would be the specifics.

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Do you want all this to happen? Because it will if we keep going as we are at the moment.

The rest of your arguments are flawed too.... nobody was calling for attacking fullbacks against Germany. And playing Fahey as a manmarker is silly, he's a creative midfielder, the front man in a 3 and not the back man. And few wanted a strong aerial striker (Walters), we wanted a strong varied striker (Long).

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

A better job than 2 playoffs, a major tournament and max points from the non-Germany games so far? No, actually I don't believe we're capable of better.

What needs to happen before I think we should be doing better? Losing at home to Sweden, getting less than 4 home/away to Austria or dropping any points home or away to Kazakhstan or the Faroes would be the specifics.

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I think you're too focused on results over performances.

Last night was coming. Kazakhstan was a massive wake-up call, but an awful performance has occurred again. The notion that we should sit back and see if it happens yet again is wrong. The fact is the performances have been going downhill for the last couple of years (and I know we've lost our best players). Proper management - from the FAI in this instance - should be pro-active, not reactive. Waiting until after we play like the last five games a couple more times and then calling for change would be like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I genuinely fear you may be figuring we should be doing better after Tuesday's game.

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Originally Posted by p2011

Can we please move on from this argument? We have been poor in competitive games since Paris 2009, and our last 5 games have been shocking. Beating Armenia, Macedonia and Estonia is nothing to get excited about. And your "max points from the non-Germany games" means the game in Astana.... are we supposed to be satisfied with that too?

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We've declined in competitive games because our golden generation are getting older and more recently retiring, the players coming through are of a much lower standard. That's the key reason for less impressive results rather than somehow the managers ability to manage degrading.
Our last 5 games contained the 2 best teams in the world and 2 others who are certainly in the top 10. The last was an unconvincing away win against a team that has already taken points from a competitor, want to tell me about all those Irish teams in the past who traveled to difficult venues and won comfortably? I can wait.

An away win over there was more than Austria could achieve so yes, you are.

The group will be decided with the games against Sweden and Austria, we could give ourselves a bonus by taking points against Germany and making life more difficult for ourselves by dropping points to the bottom 2 but so far neither has happened so we're exactly where we expected to be albeit with more hysterics. Nothing will change unless we diverge from that path, the sport is played on the pitch and not in tabloid columns or message boards. Sorry to disappoint.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think you're too focused on results over performances.

Last night was coming. Kazakhstan was a massive wake-up call, but an awful performance has occurred again. The notion that we should sit back and see if it happens yet again is wrong. The fact is the performances have been going downhill for the last couple of years (and I know we've lost our best players). Proper management - from the FAI in this instance - should be pro-active, not reactive. Waiting until after we play like the last five games a couple more times and then calling for change would be like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

I genuinely fear you may be figuring we should be doing better after Tuesday's game.

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I believe we have a very poor team and Trap is attempting to get the most out of a limited group. Focusing on performance is somewhat futile since the vast majority of teams have better skilled players than we do these days, they'll outplay us. Regardless of who's in charge its a given that both Sweden and Austria will outplay us, I don't like that but thats the situation we're in with the low caliber of players at our disposal. We'll have to scrap, cling on and take our luck when we get it if we're to get out of this group.

On the FAI, they gave him a new contract at the end of the last campaign because they were satisfied with the job he was doing. They'll have looked upon qualifying for the Euro's as a bonus and not judged him on what happened there. Since then he got a respectable away draw with Serbia, an unimpressive away win with Kazakhstan and a hammering to the 2nd best team in the world. They're not going to be pressing panic buttons or u-turning their position because of those 3 results. Why would they? They'll have expected 6 points from the first 3 games and they'll probably get that.
Why would they be concerned? Russia did something similar to us early in the last campaign which we spared our blushes a little with some undeserved consolations but they were a much weaker side than Germany and we recovered from that. Business games are coming up later in the campaign, he'll as always be judged on those.