Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I think his manner of speaking generally is fair enough, which is different from pre-determining the identity of others.

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Here is a sentence from it:

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Those from the six counties are either Irish or Northern Irish. They're one or the other by birth.

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That is pretty much the definition of determining somebody else's identity for them.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Here is a sentence from it:

That is pretty much the definition of determining somebody else's identity for them.

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I would say that's speaking generally for the sake of brevity/simplicity (Joe.ie isn't an academic publication) when discussing two distinct main communities and to distinguish between those who support Ireland and those who support NI, but if you interpret it differently, fair enough.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

It would appear that you are trying to read his mind, etc...blah blah blah.

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Very mature osaruson I'm sure, but I am not the person who attempted to extrapolate his train of thought and making a wild claim about Conan's intentions.
Any chance you might offer to answer the question asking you to support your extrapolation of his train thought and your claims?

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The train of thought that 'this is how it is for me, therefore this is how it is for everybody like me' is all over the entire piece.[/I]
Along with 'if you are not like me, then this is how it is for you'

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Originally Posted by geysir

Very mature osaruson I'm sure, but I am not the person who attempted to extrapolate his train of thought and making a wild claim about Conan's intentions.

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Is that so?

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Originally Posted by geysir

I take it he understands the NI identity to be mainly pro unionist, NI identity = northern irish unionist identity. That the default Northern irish identity is mono cultural, pro union, pro UK, along with union flag and gstq as anthem and varying degrees of hostility to nationalist culture, identity and aspirations.

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Got all straight that from the article did you, without any mind-reading at all?

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Originally Posted by geysir

I'm indifferent to the NI team, I really don't care about them. I don't care about the English team either, whether they do well or not. It's a state of mind.

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Good for you. I wasn't talking about you though, so that's completely irrelevant. I wasn't ruling out the possibility of some people the world over being indifferent towards the NI team. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he is either.

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Originally Posted by geysir

It would appear that you are attempting to read Conan's mind and determining that him being indifferent is a far fetched concept, that you don't believe his honesty of expression and you surmise that he must be out to offer an insult by wearing the cloth of indifference. I'd call that interpretation a 'complete fabrication'.

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For it to be a complete fabrication surely I would have had to pass it off as some sort of a fact. I didn't. I merely commented on how it reads to me, you know that gut feeling thing one gets from time to time. Don't tell me that, although you're not a mindreader (I don't think), you don't get them?

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Originally Posted by Danny Invincible

And I don't think he is trying to pre-determine or enforce identity upon anyone, nor is he suggesting that people must slavishly parrot their communal predecessors

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As Osarusan points out, that's exactly what he's doing. That single point sums up an attitude that you rightly ridicule when it comes from Nigel Worthington, Bellylaugh hacks or splenetic OWC regulars, so at least be consistent when it's from yer own 'hood.

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Originally Posted by Geysir

I understand that you didn't read the the linked article but chose to comment on selected quotes from the article and from those selected quotes you further snipped quotes in order to comment upon them. And by doing so, you completely removed context which defines much of the meaning of those quotes, in order to facilitate a series of cynical, disparaging and mindbogglingly inaccurate opinions. Your comments are just so predictably biased, narrow minded and ill humoured, GR

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Actually (as so often) you fail to understand. More practice needed in mind-reading perhaps? I read the whole article and commented on the bits I disagreed with. The wider context (particularly in this long-running thread) is widespread, ill-considered bias about others' identity. Conan hasn't answered that, he just adds to it.

There's nothing remotely cynical, inaccurate or ill-humored in anything I wrote above. I gently criticised an article that didn't add anything to the debate, that's all.

Bizarre post even by your consistently low standards ;)

Oh and congratulations on Euro qualification by the way.

The usual fascinating response then.

Oh and we haven't qualified...
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Actually (as so often) you fail to understand. More practice needed in mind-reading perhaps? I read the whole article and commented on the bits I disagreed with.

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Strange then that the 4 exact quotes you commented upon, were already quoted by Danny in his post. Bizarre coincidence or what? Are you being upfront and honest because that reads like a 100% spoof?
Perhaps I would have to consult with Ardee Bhoy and ask him do you fit the profile of a lazy commentator who would ignore a link to the source article, or not see a link due to an alcoholic haze perhaps, and duly proceed to select 4 exact quotes from the snipped quotes in Danny's reply and offer your usual derogotary low standard comments on such matters. And then when challenged about such a sloppy and lazy commentary, you deny and mock. I would be curious if (our respected) Ardee Bhoy would say that was a real possibility ;)

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Good for you. I wasn't talking about you though, so that's completely irrelevant. I wasn't ruling out the possibility of some people the world over being indifferent towards the NI team. I'm not ruling out the possibility that he is either.


For it to be a complete fabrication surely I would have had to pass it off as some sort of a fact. I didn't. I merely commented on how it reads to me, you know that gut feeling thing one gets from time to time. Don't tell me that, although you're not a mindreader (I don't think), you don't get them?

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And I am pointing out the absurdity of your cynical comment.
People can get ideas based on their prejudices and their interpretations follow their prejudices. Your gut feeling reads more like a prejudice. There is nothing in the article which actually supports your comment and in fact he recounts one incident where he's bemused by the wind-up antics of his OWC flat mate, obviously a character prone to low standards but nevertheless our Conan doesn't care about him. That's what's in the article.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Is that so?

Got all straight that from the article did you, without any mind-reading at all?

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Then your comments were merely a matter of erroneous extrapolation rather than you attempting to mind read the intentions of Conan.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Then your comments were merely a matter of erroneous extrapolation rather than you attempting to mind read the intentions of Conan.

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Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

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Originally Posted by geysir

And I am pointing out the absurdity of your cynical comment.
People can get ideas based on their prejudices and their interpretations follow their prejudices. Your gut feeling reads more like a prejudice. There is nothing in the article which actually supports your comment and in fact he recounts one incident where he's bemused by the wind-up antics of his OWC flat mate, obviously a character prone to low standards but nevertheless our Conan doesn't care about him. That's what's in the article.

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What's wrong with being cynical? The world is full of people who don't really mean what they say :). My gut feeling was formed from reading the link Danny posted, the whole lot of it would you believe. I don't think it's absurd at all, naturally enough, but that's not to say I'm right either.

I was actually surprised Danny thought there was some value in it to be honest. Of course, he's perfectly entitled to find it interesting or whatever but I've found his own views on such subjects far more enlightening and engaging to be honest, even if they're from the outside looking in.

Seeing as you feel I'm being so unreasonable, I'll at least try to explain how I arrived at my cynical suggestion (note: not conclusion).

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Originally Posted by Conan Doherty

We sat in the office one evening keeping an eye on the international games. Northern Ireland scored. I tutted. Okay, there was maybe an expletive or two added in there as well. Eyebrows were raised. The resident nordie giving off stink about the north's success? That's a bit strange, isn't it? But it's not. It's far from it. In fact, anything to do with Northern Ireland is as immaterial to a man from Derry as it is to a girl from Cork.

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I'm sure girls all over Cork tutted and cursed when NI scored.

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Originally Posted by Conan Doherty

There's not even animosity towards Michael O'Neill's team, there's none of that. The tuts and head shakes in this case were nothing more than another chorus of 'how did we get such a tough group and they got a pants one?' They were simply directed out of Republic self-pity and a genuine fear that weaker nations could be going to the big stage and we wouldn't be.

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This is one of the bits that I found far fetched, especially having admitted that his reaction was a bit more than just 'tutting'. I just couldn't imagine getting remotely worked up, slightly irrated or whatever just because a team I have no interest in might qualify and we might not. I presume he tuts and swears every time Iceland and Albania score as well. Maybe he does, I find it unlikely though. All-in-all, it just reads like a lame ass piece of dubious information.

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Originally Posted by Conan Doherty

I don't think I've ever sat and watched a full Northern Ireland match.That's not to make a statement, it's not some sort of political boycott and it's definitely not because I don't like them. I simply don't care.

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Sounds like a bit of a statement to me. This is probably where we differ in a major way but that just doesn't read very well to me. He's obviously a bit of a sports anorak, I can only assume he watches a lot of football as a neutral, so why not NI matches? Does he avoid/not watch football at all unless he has a vested or emotional interest in one or both of the teams involved? Granted for a long time they'd have probably clashed with our games anyway but he's not sighting that as the reason.

I'd never even heard of this bloke before Danny's link, I have nothing to go on other than the piece itself. It did nothing for me whatsoever and it just felt less than sincere... I can't ignore my feelings maan.

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Originally Posted by Geysir

Are you being upfront and honest because that reads like a 100% spoof? Perhaps I would have to consult with Ardee Bhoy and ask him do you fit the profile of a lazy commentator who would ignore a link to the source article, or not see a link due to an alcoholic haze perhaps, and duly proceed to select 4 exact quotes from the snipped quotes in Danny's reply and offer your usual derogotary low standard comments on such matters. And then when challenged about such a sloppy and lazy commentary, you deny and mock. I would be curious if (our respected) Ardee Bhoy would say that was a real possibility

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Entirely upfront and honest, yer honor. As you failed to spot (or possibly didn't understand), I commented on the bits I disagreed with having read first DI's extract and then the rest of the article. Which, as Osarusan and DeLorean have pointed out, didn't really ring true in places: but I tend not to describe others as dishonest just because I'm not wholly convinced by their arguments.

Only one guy in this conversation on the Hvalur*, I think.

You've posted a fair amount of bad-tempered badly-argued nonsense on this thread just recently. I would stay off it for a while until the hangover's past, because any one of ArdeeMan-Cried-WolfBhoy's multiple personalities is talking more sense than you are.

* infused with dried whale scrotum, I believe. Crazy ale, cray country :o

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I was actually surprised Danny thought there was some value in it to be honest. Of course, he's perfectly entitled to find it interesting or whatever but I've found his own views on such subjects far more enlightening and engaging to be honest, even if they're from the outside looking in.

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Ah, I'm a "nordie", perhaps not in body, but in soul, ha! My da's family are of Tyrone whilst Derry city was my social and educational epicentre for most of my growing up five minutes the southern side of the border, so I'd like to think that gives me a bit of a view from the inside, even if I was born in Donegal. The cultural and social connection between Derry and Donegal is very strong besides. I do appreciate your evaluation of my contributions though. Cheers! :good:

In Conán's defence, he does qualify his general statements elsewhere in the piece by expressly stating he's referring to "most" and "the vast majority" rather than everyone. And he also acknowledges that, for some, they'll support Ireland for what you could call overtly political reasons as opposed to solely cultural reasons. (I happen to think the cultural is inherently political in many ways, but that's a different discussion and I'm sure you know the distinction I'm trying to make when I use the word "overtly"; I mean that to represent a more conscious decision to make a point about your identity, or perhaps even your constitutional preferences, as opposed to some kind of gut feeling you've received or inherited that just feels natural or innate to you, which is more commonly understood as being cultural, although the lines are certainly blurred.)

Perhaps Conán downplays the overtly political motivations of some a bit; I'm not sure. Obviously, we don't have specific surveys from which we can draw conclusive information and we can only go on general understanding, gut instinct and anecdotal evidence in order to try and determine if his analysis is broadly accurate. Having grown up within the particular environment, he obviously felt qualified to comment on it with a scope extending wider than just the confines of his own personal feelings and, given my own background and experiences (similar to his own, evidently; we actually went to the same school), I saw merit in what he was saying.

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I'm sure girls all over Cork tutted and cursed when NI scored.

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This is one of the bits that I found far fetched, especially having admitted that his reaction was a bit more than just 'tutting'. I just couldn't imagine getting remotely worked up, slightly irrated or whatever just because a team I have no interest in might qualify and we might not. I presume he tuts and swears every time Iceland and Albania score as well. Maybe he does, I find it unlikely though. All-in-all, it just reads like a lame ass piece of dubious information.

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I can't explain with certainty why he might have tutted, but perhaps having greater knowledge of the resources from which the IFA have to work (compared to those from which the FAI have to work) along with a sense of local rivalry provoked a feeling of jealousy that he would never seriously be able to feel for a country like Iceland when they do better than us. Or perhaps he also feels jealous of say Iceland's rise in fortunes - I dunno - although probably not as likely, as you say.

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Sounds like a bit of a statement to me.

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The paradox of explaining one's indifference.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

You've posted a fair amount of bad-tempered badly-argued nonsense on this thread just recently. I would stay off it for a while until the hangover's past, because any one of ArdeeMan-Cried-WolfBhoy's multiple personalities is talking more sense than you are.

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GR lost the plot again. Don't know anything about Ardee.

Cormac Moore has written a book called 'The Irish Soccer Split' documenting the establishment of the FAI and the respective paths of the two associations on the island since. There's some info on it here: http://www.the42.ie/will-we-ever-see...urce=shortlink

Makes for an interesting read and will probably try and get the book myself.

I'm not all that convinced that "split" is the correct term to use considering the FAI established themselves in order to replace the IFA as the all-island association, but I suppose it makes for a snappy title and the fact that two associations came to exist on the island has long been popularly described in such terms. Cormac confirmed that the understanding that the two associations originally sought or claimed to represent the entire island conformed with his research when I posed it to him on Twitter.

Something I wrote in response to The42.ie's interview of Cormac Moore and some of the sentiment expressed under the article: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com...-ireland-team/

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Something I wrote in response to The42.ie's interview of Cormac Moore and some of the sentiment expressed under the article: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com...-ireland-team/

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If we want unity, it is our responsibility to persuade unwilling others of its merits. On the other hand, if we do not want it or are content without it because we would rather not compromise on our own identity and its symbols, that is fine, but I think it rather disingenuous to then try and apportion blame nhany impasse upon “sectarian” or “uncompromising” Northern Ireland supporters who, by and large, only wish to maintain their team for the very same reasons as we do ours. Does that make us bigots too?

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Yes, I'm afraid it does. Well you did ask...

There are sizable minorities of both team's fans who simply won't listen to reasoned argument on this issue.

That said, even the most unpleasant of our oxygen thieves can accept your team continuing to exist :D

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Yes, I'm afraid it does. Well you did ask...

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Ha, well I would say that either both sets of those fans who simply wish to preserve their own team in order to celebrate their own identity are bigots or both sets are not. My point being that trying to erect a distinction between the two sets is probably rooted more in arbitrary bias (or prejudice) than any real objective difference (minus the respective symbolisms); as in, "it's fine for us to celebrate our culture, but when you do it, it's bigotry". There's nothing inherently bigoted about simply wanting to preserve, celebrate or emphasise your own identity. The problem is when you begin to encroach upon others in doing so.

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That said, even the most unpleasant of our oxygen thieves can accept your team continuing to exist :D

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Touché!

Somehow, I completely missed this story from earlier in the month: http://mattleslie74.weebly.com/blog/...-irelands-back

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Originally Posted by Matt Leslie

A familiar sigh could be heard from the Irish Football Association's HQ this past week.

Luton Town midfielder, Cameron McGeehan, had renounced his intended footballing nationality and declared himself unavailable for Northern Ireland.

McGeehan, despite, having previously represented the Ulstermen at both under-19 and under-21 level, pulled out of the latter's squad for this weekend's match against Scotland in Lurgan.

In fact, he went one stage further.

He informed the IFA that he no longer wanted to be considered for Northern Ireland full stop, preferring to chance his luck with an attempt to win a full cap for England.
The IFA then did something that had long been threatened over the years with players who dropped out of squads - but never used - and invoked the five-day rule.

That regulation states that if you pull out of an international squad but are fit to play for your club up to five days after the international match you were selected for, the board of that nation can have you miss your club's next game should they feel obliged to do so.

The rule is there to try and stop players picking and choosing which international games to play in. Some would claim they were injured and couldn't play for their country (read: didn't fancy going to the likes of Armenia or Kazakhstan for a friendly match) but would make a dramatic recovery for a league game against Stoke 72 hours later.

McGeehan's case is slightly different however and the IFA's action, which made him miss Luton's league fixture this weekend, has been deemed by those across the Irish sea as being 'petty'.

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An association invoking this rule must surely be a very unusual occurrence. Anyone know where the regulation concerned can be found?

Edit: Another case here that involved Senegal invoking the rule to prevent Pa**** Cissé lining out for Newcastle in an EPL game against Swansea in 2012: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20344903

I also found this document relating to the release of players for international games, but it refers to a 4 or 5-day release period before games, rather than after: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...nnex_ii_74.pdf