Eligibility Rules, Okay

Nothing massively revelationary here, but I'd been looking at some stuff written by Alan Bairner (he's written a lot about identity in sport as the professor of sport and social theory at Loughborough University), and came across the passage I've quoted below in this: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/la...er/bairner.pdf

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Originally Posted by Alan Bairner

The complex nature of the relationship between sport, nationality and national identity in Northern Ireland became very apparent when, in 2006, football’s international governing body, Féderation Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) decided that international players should hold ‘the passport of the national association they are seeking to represent in order to allow the match commissioner to verify their eligibility’ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...ls/5016872.stm). According to FIFA, the fact that a player held an Irish Republic passport (which had previously been accepted practice) did not ‘demonstrate conclusively that he or she is eligible to play for Northern Ireland’. This policy shift was criticised by the government of the Irish Republic and also by the main nationalist parties in Northern Ireland, Sinn Féin and the Social Democratic and Labour Party. The IFA’s chief executive, Howard Wells, described FIFA’s stance as ‘unfortunate’ (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5093924.stm).

In large part, this issue arose because of the unique position held by England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales within the context of international football - that is as football nations without corresponding states. It was rendered more problematic in this specific case by long-standing debates about the status of Northern Ireland together with the more recent provisions of the Good Friday Agreement which recognise that all people born in Northern Ireland can opt for British or Irish citizenship (Neuheiser and Wolff, 2002).

As a direct consequence of pressure from various different quarters, a compromise has now been reached. Northern Ireland players are now permitted to hold either a British or an Irish passport although, in addition, they are obliged to sign ‘a declaration of eligibility’. Conversely, a player who holds only a British passport is deemed ineligible to play for the Republic of Ireland.

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I think we'd been aware that IFA players in possession of Irish passports only were exempted from the ordinary eligibility verification principle so long as the IFA otherwise ascertained and verified their eligibility/satisfaction of at least one of the article 6 criteria, but Bairner talks about NI players having to sign a "declaration of eligibility" as well as possessing either a British or an Irish passport (or is it just the Irish passport holders who have to sign this declaration?), which is something of which I was unaware. I wasn't sure what the checking process would have been - I would have assumed a birth cert would have been the next go-to document if the passport wasn't conclusive (then again, passports do indicate place of birth anyway) - but is a mere declaration from a player concerned enough, so long as he also possesses one of the passports? I'd have thought there would have been a need to investigate some further documents, on the part of the IFA at least?

Just another thing, the original logic for the policy shift (before being reversed in the IFA's case) was purportedly because an Irish passport did not "demonstrate conclusively that [a player] is eligible to play for Northern Ireland"; however, a British passport would not have served to do this either. Perhaps this declaration is a standard verification process for all of the British associations then in that a British passport alone obviously cannot be conclusive proof of eligibility to play for one of those associations?

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Nothing massively revelationary here, but I'd been looking at some stuff written by Alan Bairner (he's written a lot about identity in sport as the professor of sport and social theory at Loughborough University), and came across the passage I've quoted below in this: http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/la...er/bairner.pdf



I think we'd been aware that IFA players in possession of Irish passports only were exempted from the ordinary eligibility verification principle so long as the IFA otherwise ascertained and verified their eligibility/satisfaction of at least one of the article 6 criteria, but Bairner talks about NI players having to sign a "declaration of eligibility" as well as possessing either a British or an Irish passport (or is it just the Irish passport holders who have to sign this declaration?), which is something of which I was unaware. I wasn't sure what the checking process would have been - I would have assumed a birth cert would have been the next go-to document if the passport wasn't conclusive (then again, passports do indicate place of birth anyway) - but is a mere declaration from a player concerned enough, so long as he also possesses one of the passports? I'd have thought there would have been a need to investigate some further documents, on the part of the IFA at least?

Just another thing, the original logic for the policy shift (before being reversed in the IFA's case) was purportedly because an Irish passport did not "demonstrate conclusively that [a player] is eligible to play for Northern Ireland"; however, a British passport would not have served to do this either. Perhaps this declaration is a standard verification process for all of the British associations then in that a British passport alone obviously cannot be conclusive proof of eligibility to play for one of those associations?

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But at least with a UK Passport you know that there is a further agreement in place between the FAW, SFA, IFA and FA to ensure eligibility.

Asking Irish passport solely holders to sign a form is a tad odd though.

Just putting it out there, any chance this thread could be reopened. With recent developments (on foot.ie) it seems unlikely that the discussion will get out of hand and there's bound to be plenty of reports of twists and turns to discuss in the near future, which is the purpose of a football forum.

The Irish Sun reckons he'd have to wait a while to play for England, which they seem to see as a major factor. I really can't see that playing any part in the decision making process, or at least it shouldn't. Anyway it is The Sun I suppose. Are they at least correct in what they're reporting?

Edit- Apologies if I seem impatient, I just noticed that the discussion was only banned until September which is only a few days away. I had it in my head that it was banned until there was a decision made. Either way, I still think it could be reopened.

sorry, the thread will remain locked, and any discussion of Grealish is still banned, until the situation is clarified from either the FAI, Grealish himself, or the FA

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

The Irish Sun reckons he'd have to wait a while to play for England, which they seem to see as a major factor. I really can't see that playing any part in the decision making process, or at least it shouldn't. Anyway it is The Sun I suppose. Are they at least correct in what they're reporting?

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I'm not sure that would have any real bearing on what will be a long-term decision either (especially as the likelihood is we won't be qualifying for Euro 2016 anyway, save for a large dollop of good fortune in the group's remaining fixtures). They are correct in respect of the lengthy administrative process post-switch request, however. Practically, it would rule any switching player out of being able to play for the receiving/benefiting association for a few months.

Hadn't been aware that Jon Macken is one of the select few players deemed to have made a formal switch of association to the FAI since 2003.

This thread is kind of an archive for discussion on (northern) Irish identity matters, so I'll put it here; it's a very good piece by a lad from Derry on northerners supporting Ireland: http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/bei...-you-are/38799

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Originally Posted by Conán Doherty

There seems to be a lack of understanding about Irish people north of the border.

We didn't just suddenly choose to support the Republic over Northern Ireland because they had a better football team. Barely.

We didn't choose to support the Republic for any political reasons - well, most of us anyway.

And, do you know what, it's not even out of any nationalism or statement of Irishness or any of that.

It's a simple case of you're born into a community and this is who you are. You grow up in this world. You support Ireland. And Northern Ireland is just the other team. You weren't even given a choice about them.

Those from the six counties are either Irish or Northern Irish. They're one or the other by birth. So they grow up accordingly.

I don't think I've ever sat and watched a full Northern Ireland match.

That's not to make a statement, it's not some sort of political boycott and it's definitely not because I don't like them. I simply don't care.

Do I want to see Northern Ireland do well? I don't know. I don't care enough.

Sure, I don't mind seeing them getting on alright but as much as I don't mind seeing Wales have a bit of relative success too. As long as Ireland has their house in order, the rest can do what they like.

If the north went to the Euros and Ireland didn't, I couldn't possibly take any real interest or joy from pretending to follow Michael O'Neill's men. There's no history there for me or my family of supporting Northern Ireland. There's no affiliation there with the country whatsoever.

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Well worth a read.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

This thread is kind of an archive for discussion on (northern) Irish identity matters, so I'll put it here; it's a very good piece by a lad from Derry on northerners supporting Ireland: http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/bei...-you-are/38799



Well worth a read.

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Makes you wonder about the players that play for NI even though they have admitted to supporting the Republic (Niall McGinn, the myriad of players to tweet support for Ireland over the years. I'm sure there are more that haven't admitted it in public). There must be quite a few over the year who haven't taken the plunge that McClean and Duffy have taken.

Can't agree about yer mate's worthiness, DI. It's a lame mirror image of NI fans gurning about players emigrating South ;)

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Originally Posted by Conan Doherty

We didn't just suddenly choose to support the Republic over Northern Ireland because they had a better football team. Barely

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You personally didn't ever support NI, sure, but many others did. Particularly in the 1980s, even though sectarian tension and violence was worse then.

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t's a simple case of you're born into a community and this is who you are. You grow up in this world. You support Ireland. And Northern Ireland is just the other team. You weren't even given a choice about them

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It isn't. You don't slavishly have to parrot everything everyone in your community does. Many don't. Everyone has a choice.

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Those from the six counties are either Irish or Northern Irish. They're one or the other by birth. So they grow up accordingly

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I'm both, like plenty of others. Who are you to pre-determine anyone else's identity?

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don't think I've ever sat and watched a full Northern Ireland match

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Give it a try ;)

I mean, this may be a high point...

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Originally Posted by Ole Ole

Makes you wonder about the players that play for NI even though they have admitted to supporting the Republic (Niall McGinn, the myriad of players to tweet support for Ireland over the years. I'm sure there are more that haven't admitted it in public)

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Plenty of internationals support teams other than those they played for. If they grew up elsewhere and have never lived in the country, that's what you'd expect.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

This thread is kind of an archive for discussion on (northern) Irish identity matters, so I'll put it here; it's a very good piece by a lad from Derry on northerners supporting Ireland: http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/bei...-you-are/38799

Well worth a read.

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It's a good read and well done to him for putting it down in public,
he refers to those with NI identity, I take it he understands the NI identity to be mainly pro unionist, NI identity = northern irish unionist identity. That the default Northern irish identity is mono cultural, pro union, pro UK, along with union flag and gstq as anthem and varying degrees of hostility to nationalist culture, identity and aspirations.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

It isn't. You don't slavishly have to parrot everything everyone in your community does. Many don't. Everyone has a choice.

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I'm both, like plenty of others. Who are you to pre-determine anyone else's identity?

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I would have guessed he's referring to the independent Irish national identity, which is an identity with which you do not identify, without wishing to "pre-determine" anything! ;) If I'm not mistaken, you identify as Northern Irish and Irish, but your version of the latter is a regional or sub-national British one, no?

And I don't think he is trying to pre-determine or enforce identity upon anyone, nor is he suggesting that people must slavishly parrot their communal predecessors. I more took him to be saying that the society or cultural environment in which you find yourself generally determines your national and cultural inclinations; thus, your society or community naturally tends to pre-determine (or it, at least, strongly influences) your identity. If you're born into a French-identifying household, for example, you'll probably identify as French, not out of any conscious decision, but because that's now you were born, raised and have always felt; you just are French. If you're born into a German-identifying household, you'll probably identify as German for the same reasons. That isn't me pre-determining anyone's identity; it's just acknowledging historical and socio-cultural reality and the concept of familial inheritance of identity and tradition.

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Originally Posted by geysir

It's a good read and well done to him for putting it down in public,
he refers to those with NI identity, I take it he understands the NI identity to be mainly pro unionist, NI identity = northern irish unionist identity. That the default Northern irish identity is mono cultural, pro union, pro UK, along with union flag and gstq as anthem and varying degrees of hostility to nationalist culture, identity and aspirations.

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You might well have seen it, but I'd written something along similar lines a while back actually after Trevor Ringland expressed some things about northern nationalists without any sense of self-awareness whatsoever: https://danieldcollins.wordpress.com...-all-part-two/

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I applaud Ringland, a declared unionist, for his positive intentions and reconciliation work, but he fundamentally misunderstands the broad nationalist community if he thinks that those who support or declare for the FAI are doing so to purposefully and specifically reject a relationship with himself, his ideas and others like him. The reality of the situation, rather, is that Irish nationalists incline or orientate towards a different cultural beacon to the one Ringland subscribes and they channel their identity through that in the same way that Ringland channels his through the idea of a British Northern Ireland. The fortunes of the Northern Ireland football team are about as culturally relevant to many Irish nationalists as the fortunes of, say, the English, Scottish or Welsh football teams. For most nationalists, identification and affiliation is not about being spitefully anti-Northern Irish or anti-British, nor is it about being culturally against for what Ringland stands. Ringland must realise that not everything nationalists in the north do and think is relative to or in reaction to unionism. The reality is more straightforward than that. Nationalists’ lack of identification with Northern Ireland is not necessarily even a conscious decision on their parts; the alien idea of supporting Northern Ireland might simply never have crossed their minds. For most nationalists, their affiliation “elsewhere” is about celebrating themselves, their own identity and being pro-Irish, for want of a better description; it is about defining and expressing themselves on their own independent terms, which can be purely benign, non-antagonistic and celebratory. Most nationalists can get along just fine with those from different walks of life whilst also celebrating their own identity. The two need not be mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Can't agree about yer mate's worthiness, DI. It's a lame mirror image of NI fans gurning about players emigrating South ;)



You personally didn't ever support NI, sure, but many others did. Particularly in the 1980s, even though sectarian tension and violence was worse then.



It isn't. You don't slavishly have to parrot everything everyone in your community does. Many don't. Everyone has a choice.



I'm both, like plenty of others. Who are you to pre-determine anyone else's identity?



Give it a try ;)

I mean, this may be a high point...



Plenty of internationals support teams other than those they played for. If they grew up elsewhere and have never lived in the country, that's what you'd expect.

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I understand that you didn't read the the linked article but chose to comment on selected quotes from the article and from those selected quotes you further snipped quotes in order to comment upon them. And by doing so, you completely removed context which defines much of the meaning of those quotes, in order to facilitate a series of cynical, disparaging and mindbogglingly inaccurate opinions. Your comments are just so predictably biased, narrow minded and ill humoured, GR.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

And I don't think he is trying to pre-determine or enforce identity upon anyone,

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Seriously?


The train of thought that 'this is how it is for me, therefore this is how it is for everybody like me' is all over the entire piece.

Along with 'if you are not like me, then this is how it is for you.'

He even (unwittingly) insults a number of our English-born players while he's at it.

He's really stressing the 'indifference' he feels towards them, which I find a bit far fetched. It's often said that indifference is the greatest insult, I reckon that's what he's probably going for.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Can't agree about yer mate's worthiness, DI. It's a lame mirror image of NI fans gurning about players emigrating South ;)



You personally didn't ever support NI, sure, but many others did. Particularly in the 1980s, even though sectarian tension and violence was worse then.



It isn't. You don't slavishly have to parrot everything everyone in your community does. Many don't. Everyone has a choice.



I'm both, like plenty of others. Who are you to pre-determine anyone else's identity?



Give it a try ;)

I mean, this may be a high point...



Plenty of internationals support teams other than those they played for. If they grew up elsewhere and have never lived in the country, that's what you'd expect.

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More paranoid nonsense.

Ha ha, yeap, that's him all over.

Double standards 'are us'.
:eek:

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

He's really stressing the 'indifference' he feels towards them, which I find a bit far fetched. It's often said that indifference is the greatest insult, I reckon that's what he's probably going for.

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I'm indifferent to the NI team, I really don't care about them. I don't care about the English team either, whether they do well or not. It's a state of mind.
It would appear that you are attempting to read Conan's mind and determining that him being indifferent is a far fetched concept, that you don't believe his honesty of expression and you surmise that he must be out to offer an insult by wearing the cloth of indifference. I'd call that interpretation a 'complete fabrication'.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Seriously?


The train of thought that 'this is how it is for me, therefore this is how it is for everybody like me' is all over the entire piece.

Along with 'if you are not like me, then this is how it is for you.'

He even (unwittingly) insults a number of our English-born players while he's at it.

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Again we have some fantastic mind readers on board here :)
Exactly where is he trying to predetermine or force his identity onto others?
It reads to me as an account from him and the local community he grew up in.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Seriously?


The train of thought that 'this is how it is for me, therefore this is how it is for everybody like me' is all over the entire piece.

Along with 'if you are not like me, then this is how it is for you.'

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I think his manner of speaking generally is fair enough, which is different from pre-determining the identity of others. He's trying to explain a broad communal experience/mindset and does acknowledge that he's speaking for "most"/"the vast majority" rather than absolutely everyone. I think the popularity of the piece indicates the truth in it for most.

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He even (unwittingly) insults a number of our English-born players while he's at it.

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This bit?: "Would I play for the north? If I knew my chances of playing for the Republic were completely finished, yes. I'd play for the north the same way all those English lads play for the Republic. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I'd only be playing for a team. I wouldn't be playing for my country."

I wouldn't endorse that particular statement, but it's not integral to the general sentiment of the piece.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

He's really stressing the 'indifference' he feels towards them, which I find a bit far fetched. It's often said that indifference is the greatest insult, I reckon that's what he's probably going for.

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The piece was written to clear up any misunderstanding in terms of why so many northerners support Ireland. I've encountered many people here in England who simply assume that because one might be a northerner that the natural inclination should be towards supporting NI. Many either don't get it or assume it's glory-hunting. Perhaps Conán has also experienced this in the south. Well, he does allude to it actually. It is in that context that the expression of indifference is made towards a team to which others perhaps blindly assume he'd feel attached simply because of where he was born. It is to correct a common but incorrect assumption about northerners who support Ireland. He speaks positively of having lived with a NI fan (I also know he's friends with people from both communities), so I wouldn't say that setting out to insult was one of his intentions. He's entitled to emphasise his Irishness and his distinctness (as well even his indifference towards NI) without it being assumed grounded in bitterness or any intent to insult.

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Originally Posted by geysir

It reads to me as an account from him and the local community he grew up in.

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It would appear that you are trying to read his mind, etc...blah blah blah.