Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

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30/11/2014, 8:24 PM
Charlie Darwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Well Lukas has a thread here therefore we can assume like Paddy Bamford there is widesprwad clamour for their inclusion. That's what I infer from a player with a thread.

Unless it has 100 pages and numerous conspiracy theories it doesn't count as a clamour for me.
30/11/2014, 9:58 PM
BonnieShels

You were always a stickler. I like to jump the gun and live on the edge.
01/12/2014, 7:23 AM
gastric

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Some randomer who is completely ambivalent about playing Intl. football for Ireland, who said he would like to play for Poland if England didn't select him, who has been bang average at Championship level and continued that form into the Premier League; and yet some people would rather continue to hand out caps like confetti to people like him than reward lads like Alan Judge, Alan McCormack and Jonathan Douglas who have all been a credit to a promotion chasing Brentford team and would give their right arm to be selected for their country.

The Pole's a forward, the Brentford boys are defenders and midfielders. Why make such silly comparisons?
01/12/2014, 8:17 AM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Well Lukas has a thread here therefore we can assume like Paddy Bamford there is widesprwad clamour for their inclusion. That's what I infer from a player with a thread.

I had a read through the thread here: http://foot.ie/threads/143742-Lukas-Jutkiewicz

It's very brief with not a solitary call for his inclusion (bar SkStu's obviously-ironic post that seemed to confuse worm). Most agree he's not good enough and acknowledge we're probably only his third choice anyway. Where have you heard or seen people call for his inclusion and the inclusion of players like him, TOWK?
01/12/2014, 8:36 AM
GypsyBlackCat

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Some randomer who is completely ambivalent about playing Intl. football for Ireland, who said he would like to play for Poland if England didn't select him, who has been bang average at Championship level and continued that form into the Premier League; and yet some people would rather continue to hand out caps like confetti to people like him than reward lads like Alan Judge, Alan McCormack and Jonathan Douglas who have all been a credit to a promotion chasing Brentford team and would give their right arm to be selected for their country.

Player looking to boost his career by looking to play international football SHOCKER!!!!

Let's be honest, most English born player dream of playing for England. That's only natural. But if we are a plan B then so be it. I don't mind once they give their best and are 100% committed. Just because someone mention a player with Irish links on here doesn't mean we are all asking the powers that be to pick him!
01/12/2014, 9:39 AM
Mr A

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd say JD promised him a pay rise if he could distract from his own media attention for a few days.

Funny the first thing I thought when I heard Keane resigned from Villa was that he felt it was wrong that Delaney was generating more headlines than him and needed to focus on Ireland to rectify this.
01/12/2014, 11:39 AM
geysir

Of course it is believable that Delaney has such prescient powers of manipulation over one of his most stubborn adversaries :) but not even Delaney could persuade the FAI to top up Keane's reputed Eur 700k salary as assistant to O'Neill.

Roy's simple choice could have been, Eur500k for a full time job or Eur700k for a job where an occasional appearance is required.

(Salary figures are courtesy of that oracle, The Irish Daily Star)
02/12/2014, 12:32 AM
DannyInvincible

Tony Cascarino hasn't much time for Roy: http://balls.ie/football/tony-cascar...-harshest-yet/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balls.ie

Tony Cascarino acknowledged that from what he had heard, Roy Keane was a good coach at Villa. He even reported that the players liked him and his training sessions. There the praise ends.

In his London Times article at the weekend, he said that Keane receives special treatment – that his flounces and loss of temper would see him castigated if he wasn’t Roy Keane, but instead it’s a ‘pat on the back and thanks for your trouble.’

He accused Keane of abandoning Villa at a time when they most need him – pointing out that Ireland don’t have a game until March.

"If his decision is to be taken at face value — that he felt he could not commit fully to his roles at Villa Park, with the Ireland team, and at ITV — then he has walked out on his club when they need him most, at a time when his country hardly need him at all. Ireland do not play again until March."

He lamented that Keane keeps having opportunities falling into his lap when there are ‘hundreds of coaches toiling away at all levels of game who would be desperate for the opportunities he has had… Doors that remain closed to the vast majority of people seem to open, as if by magic, for Keane, despite what is at best a mixed record as a manager.’

He delivers possibly his toughest line in the penultimate paragraph. Association football is not usually a game that frets about it’s popularity or how it comes across to the world, but Cascarino says the fact that Keane keeps getting job offers is embarrassing.

"That he continues to be given chance after chance simply on the strength of his name eventually becomes embarrassing for the sport, as though it is completely in thrall to his reputation."

Is he bitter with jealousy?
02/12/2014, 1:30 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Doubtful. From what I know of Cas, he was never RMK's biggest fan...
02/12/2014, 7:49 AM
DeLorean

The feelings are very much mutual. I remember Keane saying in an interview that "you can't believe a word that man says".
02/12/2014, 8:05 AM
Stuttgart88

Is it just me or is it a relief to see this thread having a proper title after all this time? I'm the kind of guy who needs pictures to be hanging straight and curtains fully drawn, so this type of thing matters to me.
02/12/2014, 8:10 AM
DeLorean

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.
02/12/2014, 8:21 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Don't care about the title, it's whether these two have any meaningful impact...
Guess we'll find out in late March.

I won't hold my breath, but wish them well.
02/12/2014, 8:26 AM
DeLorean

Crazy talk AB, I'd much prefer to have the thread title correct than qualify for the Euros.
02/12/2014, 8:29 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Well, both seem unlikely...
02/12/2014, 10:04 AM
tetsujin1979

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Is it just me or is it a relief to see this thread having a proper title after all this time? I'm the kind of guy who needs pictures to be hanging straight and curtains fully drawn, so this type of thing matters to me.

http://i.imgur.com/sUZ4JXb.jpg
mu-hu-wa-ha-haaa!
02/12/2014, 10:30 AM
ArdeeBhoy

Lolz.
02/12/2014, 11:51 AM
Mr A

Cascarino makes fair enough points there I think. Surprised Keane hasn't retaliated yet, but maybe there hasn't been a chance to date.
02/12/2014, 12:00 PM
DeLorean

What chances does Keane keep 'undeservedly' getting though? It could definitely be argued that he'd done nothing to deserve the Sunderland job, but that worked out very well for them and he certainly did enough to warrant another job, at what was a lower level. Things didn't go too well at Ipswich so he's basically been demoted (or has demoted himself) to assistant manager roles instead of the main man, seems reasonable enough. This is the second job (amongst other things) that he's walked out on though so obviously that should, and probably will, count against him in the future.
02/12/2014, 12:15 PM
ArdeeBhoy

The ego, the ego, the ego.
02/12/2014, 12:47 PM
DeLorean

I'm not sure what you're saying though? If this was a decision based on his ego, wouldn't he have stayed on and wanted to prove he could combine both roles effectively? Quitting was an admission that he called it wrong and wasn't capable of doing both roles the way he thought he would.
02/12/2014, 12:50 PM
GypsyBlackCat

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

What chances does Keane keep 'undeservedly' getting though? It could definitely be argued that he'd done nothing to deserve the Sunderland job, but that worked out very well for them and he certainly did enough to warrant another job, at what was a lower level. Things didn't go too well at Ipswich so he's basically been demoted (or has demoted himself) to assistant manager roles instead of the main man, seems reasonable enough. This is the second job (amongst other things) that he's walked out on though so obviously that should, and probably will, count against him in the future.

In fairness, people seem to think Keane walks on water and can do no wrong. He did ok at Sunderland but it ended badly. For the money he spent and the players he got in didn't match up. As one local writer put it 'He paid Champions League money for Championship players.' After spending the best part of �100m you don't expect to be sitting second bottom of the PL. Plus he couldn't handle the egos and his coaching left a lot to be desired. Also his attitude. Ellis Short had every right to question Keane's performance as manager and he walked out. That should raise the question if he can handle the pressure. I can't imagine Ellis Short or Marcus Evans giving Keane a glown CV.
02/12/2014, 12:59 PM
DeLorean

I certainly don't think he walks on water but I do think he did well at Sunderland. In fact, I think one would have to be pretty anti-Keane not to appreciate that. He spent the money he was given to spend, got promoted to the PL and kept them there. Any promoted club would take survival the following season and I think they finished 13th, albeit the margins were tight. It ended badly for sure but I'm simply talking about the job he did while he was there. I could definitely see why another Championship club would want him so I don't think that appointment was undeserved.
02/12/2014, 1:33 PM
GypsyBlackCat

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

I certainly don't think he walks on water but I do think he did well at Sunderland. In fact, I think one would have to be pretty anti-Keane not to appreciate that. He spent the money he was given to spend, got promoted to the PL and kept them there. Any promoted club would take survival the following season and I think they finished 13th, albeit the margins were tight. It ended badly for sure but I'm simply talking about the job he did while he was there. I could definitely see why another Championship club would want him so I don't think that appointment was undeserved.

He took over a good squad of Champioship players and was able to spend good money to add to it. He did a good job to get SAFC promoted but that was about all. The thing that sticks in claw is the way he walked out. He spend big bucks on Ferdinand, McCartney, Cisse, Diouf, Tanio, Chimbonda, Healy and Malbranque during the summer but wanted more in January because they weren't good enough. When Short said no he had to sell to buy Keane got in a huff. That's the problem.

Ipswich took a chance and he failed despite spending good money on players like Leadbitter, Edwards and Martin to add to a solid Championship side. Not to many teams wanted him and it took him two years to get a job.
02/12/2014, 2:02 PM
DeLorean

So he took over a good squad of Championship players, added to it, got them promoted and secured a decent Premier League finish. Managers are judged on their results and he got the results. Sunderland were a mess on the field when he took over so saying they had a good squad is one thing, but they weren't performing like they had a good squad. He bought some duds, no doubt. Sunderland haven't exactly kicked on since his departure and, who knows, maybe they'd still be struggling in the Championship had it not been for aul Keano.

Your last sentence I agree with, and that was basically what I was getting at when talking about Cascarino's comments.
03/12/2014, 2:36 PM
DannyInvincible

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

What chances does Keane keep 'undeservedly' getting though?

Who's Cascarino to decide whether or not Keane is deserving of a particular role anyway? If the chairman of a football club or the board of an association feel he's fit for a particular role for whatever reason, be that purely because of his personality rather than due to any previous managerial record, than that's what matters. It's they who decide whether he's deserving of the role they're offering or not. The abilities and attributes Cascarino values are obviously different to those valued by people who keep giving Keane jobs.
03/12/2014, 3:10 PM
KK77

Quote:

Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat

He took over a good squad of Champioship players and was able to spend good money to add to it. He did a good job to get SAFC promoted but that was about all. The thing that sticks in claw is the way he walked out. He spend big bucks on Ferdinand, McCartney, Cisse, Diouf, Tanio, Chimbonda, Healy and Malbranque during the summer but wanted more in January because they weren't good enough. When Short said no he had to sell to buy Keane got in a huff. That's the problem.

Ipswich took a chance and he failed despite spending good money on players like Leadbitter, Edwards and Martin to add to a solid Championship side. Not to many teams wanted him and it took him two years to get a job.

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.
03/12/2014, 3:22 PM
GypsyBlackCat

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Who's Cascarino to decide whether or not Keane is deserving of a particular role anyway? If the chairman of a football club or the board of an association feel he's fit for a particular role for whatever reason, be that purely because of his personality rather than due to any previous managerial record, than that's what matters. It's they who decide whether he's deserving of the role they're offering or not. The abilities and attributes Cascarino values are obviously different to those valued by people who keep giving Keane jobs.

Cascarino is wrong that he keeps getting jobs. He was sacked by Ipswich in Jan 2011 and didn't get a job offer until November last year. But I think Cascarino has a point that Keane mightn't have what it takes to be a coach. It seems that a lot of chairmen didn't fancy giving Keane a job after Ipswich.
03/12/2014, 3:28 PM
Charlie Darwin

Quote:

Originally Posted by KK77

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.

John would know, to be fair.
03/12/2014, 3:39 PM
DeLorean

Quote:

Originally Posted by KK77

I think John Giles called it right when he said Keane as a manager was a fairly poor judge of a player.

I'd be surprised if Giles could name three Roy Keane signings. That's not to say he's wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat

Cascarino is wrong that he keeps getting jobs. He was sacked by Ipswich in Jan 2011 and didn't get a job offer until November last year. But I think Cascarino has a point that Keane mightn't have what it takes to be a coach. It seems that a lot of chairmen didn't fancy giving Keane a job after Ipswich.

We don't really know for sure what Keane has or hasn't been offered post-Ipswich, I think he said in the book that he turned down a couple, possibly from abroad. Just because he didn't accept a managerial position until November 2013 doesn't mean he wasn't offered something, or at least approached. He probably needed a time out after Ipswich anyway. I can see where Cascarino is coming from, that Keane can mess up and still land on his feet, but I agree with Danny that it's not for Cascarino to say, just comes across like jealousy to me. I mean, for Keane to be offered a contract by the FAI, after all that went before, was pretty astounding. Villa and Celtic are two massive clubs to have offered positions as well, given his relative lack of success in management, and goes to show that a big personality/reputation can take you a long way.
03/12/2014, 7:42 PM
geysir

Villa win their first game in ages :)
I really never saw what Keane offered as a pundit, apart from his one liner shock value popular quotes which went against the grain, his actual stock analysis was banal,mono dimensional and repetitive, therefore I do share Cas' wonderment at what people find fascinating about Keane in his post playing days, in regards to football analysis and coaching. Apart from that, I don't mind him.
He's not worth his salary for us. I'd prefer to have a character like Noel King in there as assistant and I'd say he could do with a decent salary.
It's not up to the FAI to sponsor Keane's apprenticeship as a manager and the odds are he'll not make the grade.
03/12/2014, 8:08 PM
DeLorean

Well it was O'Neill that wanted him, not the FAI. Accommodating the manager with the assistant he choses is good practice I think, and their wages are being heavily subsidised by Denis O'Brien anyway so in that sense the figures are kind of irrelevant, crazy n all as they are.
03/12/2014, 8:43 PM
geysir

The salary figures are not irrelevant just because there is a reputed 40% - 50% subsidy, the FAI still pay twice as much as is arguably appropriate for an association of Ireland's size. The subsidy also does not negate the gulf in inequality between what club managers earn in the LOI (at the bottom of the professional ladder) and the extreme high salary paid to the top pair, who are part time.
Keane may well be O'Neill's choice but it is farcical that an assistant manager of a small association commands a salary that's more than most managers in Uefa land and maybe more than all the managers in the LOI combined.
Keane doesn't even look like a proper assistant, where's his effin' clipboard?
03/12/2014, 9:07 PM
DeLorean

It's not something that bothers me too much. We're not a big draw, if we have to pay a bit more to attract a high profile, proven manager and his chosen assistant, with a massively generous no strings attached donation then, within reason, so be it. I'm not sure what the LOI managers wages have to do with it?
03/12/2014, 10:31 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

It's not something that bothers me too much. We're not a big draw, if we have to pay a bit more to attract a high profile, proven manager and his chosen assistant, with a massively generous no strings attached donation then, within reason, so be it.

Other similar sized countries manage alright without having to pay a fortune to lure a manager, it's not the lack of lure that the irish job offers, that forces the FAI to pay out a fortune for a managerial team and one that just happens to manage average grade results.
If you're not bothered by the issue, then fine.

Quote:

I'm not sure what the LOI managers wages have to do with it?

What is the relevance between a club football managers' salary in the domestic league which is under the control of the FAI and the FAI's representative team's management�salary?
I supposed that the mere example of the glaring inequality of the Intl manager earning 30 times what a manager does in the LOI, says something about the state of Irish football. That's my opinion about what I perceive to be a glaring dysfunction in Irish football, but that's another debate.

This current discussion is about Roy and Cas seeing him without any clothes and although Cas has always seen Roy like this, he does have a point. Eg. Roy as a pundit was banal yet he was lauded as being 'left field' etc.
03/12/2014, 11:56 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

I'm not sure what you're saying though? If this was a decision based on his ego, wouldn't he have stayed on and wanted to prove he could combine both roles effectively? Quitting was an admission that he called it wrong and wasn't capable of doing both roles the way he thought he would.

Not in his world. More like he p*ssed people off.
If he admits it fair enough, but don't hold your breath.

Though in latter years, he occasionally has a point re.the former.
04/12/2014, 12:36 AM
tricky_colour

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.

I preferred it when it was full of spelling and grammatical errors.
04/12/2014, 12:40 AM
tricky_colour

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.

I preferred it when it was full of spelling and grammatical errors.

Strictly speaking though shouldn't there be one thread for Roy and one thread for Martin?

I mean there is definitely a separate thread for Roy Keane so the question is which thread should you post in for a comment about Roy
Keane?
04/12/2014, 8:15 AM
Spudulika

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeLorean

I'd be surprised if Giles could name three Roy Keane signings. That's not to say he's wrong.

We don't really know for sure what Keane has or hasn't been offered post-Ipswich, I think he said in the book that he turned down a couple, possibly from abroad. Just because he didn't accept a managerial position until November 2013 doesn't mean he wasn't offered something, or at least approached. He probably needed a time out after Ipswich anyway. I can see where Cascarino is coming from, that Keane can mess up and still land on his feet, but I agree with Danny that it's not for Cascarino to say, just comes across like jealousy to me. I mean, for Keane to be offered a contract by the FAI, after all that went before, was pretty astounding. Villa and Celtic are two massive clubs to have offered positions as well, given his relative lack of success in management, and goes to show that a big personality/reputation can take you a long way.

He was chased and offered the head coach position by the Turkish team Kasimpasa. They were in advanced talks but there was 1 sticking point....
He was approached by the former GD of Spartak Moscow in December 2012 - January 2013 to become head coach, turned it down...there was 1 sticking point.

The sticking point was the same, the position was "head coach", which means limited powers signing players and all that goes with it. He was right to refuse the latter, but the former....could have been nice.
04/12/2014, 9:10 AM
KK77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

John would know, to be fair.

I would disagree myself. I would feel it was just his two cents on it or should I say his opinion to which to be fair he is entitled to.

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