Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by jebus

Quite simply the gloating from the No campaign (people on here personify it) is disgusting, 'Yay we set Europe back by a year or two at a time when it really needs to come together!'. Congratulations :rolleyes:

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I'm pro Europe. I'm for a federal Europe. But I'm for a democratic Europe, not one where unelected bureaucrats are calling the shots. There are people celebrating this all over Europe tonight. This is a victory for Europe and a set back for the political class and the media who tried their best to brow beat the Irish people into voting the way they wanted. Needless to say I'm very very happy with the result.
Good for Europe?

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

So that I might share in your joviality, what exactly is making you laugh?

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Don't know about him but for me its the Eoin Ryan posters around the place as he looks smugly upon us. The first one I saw after the result was clear made me lol!

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Originally Posted by jebus

Quite simply the gloating from the No campaign (people on here personify it) is disgusting,

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Funny, what I find disgusting, is the moaning and the pathetic excuses of the pro-Treaty side who appear to be in denial. As Bertie would say, these people are living in La La land if they really believe that the Treaty was rejected on the basis that people were afraid of abortion-on-demand or conscription to a European Army or only being allowed 2 children. The No side won because the Lisbon Treaty was a bad deal for Ireland and the electorate had the intelligence to see that. You'll get over the result a lot faster if you take those blinkers off!!

Finally, I've heard these scare stories that the No side were meant to be coming out with. However I didn't hear them from the many people that stopped me on the street to canvas my support or called to my front door. I heard all these scare stories that the No side were allegedly coming out with from the Yes side. Had they not mentioned it, every time one of them stepped in front of a camera or mic, I wouldn't have been aware of the stories. Perhaps the Treaty would have stood a better chance if the Yes side had concentrated on the issues instead of negative campaigning and mud throwing.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I'm pro Europe. I'm for a federal Europe. But I'm for a democratic Europe, not one where unelected bureaucrats are calling the shots.

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What kind of decision-making structure would you propose given the likelihood of unrelated factors being more important than the substantive issues? The right decision may have been reached here, but can you say it was reached the right way, for the right reasons?

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Don't know about him but for me its the Eoin Ryan posters around the place as he looks smugly upon us. The first one I saw after the result was clear made me lol!

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:D I can imagine!

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Originally Posted by SMorgan

these people are living in La La land if they really believe that the Treaty was rejected on the basis that people were afraid of abortion-on-demand or conscription to a European Army or only being allowed 2 children.

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There were a multiplicity of reasons for a No vote. Those you mention undoubtedly among them. For example, a lady from Galway was on radio earlier. She said she couldn't make up her mind, but when she got to the booth she did, on the basis that she was protecting her children from being conscripted. Also, two Legion of Mary people called to my door yesterday. They were staunchly No because abortion would be made available in Ireland. Plenty more examples of why people voted No unrelated to what was in the Treaty. That's not denial of the result, but disaffection with the way it was reached. (I was largely ambivalent about the result by the way)

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

What kind of decision-making structure would you propose given the likelihood of unrelated factors being more important than the substantive issues? The right decision may have been reached here, but can you say it was reached the right way, for the right reasons?



:D I can imagine!

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The Reasons

The vote was nothing to do with corporate tax, abortion or Euthenasia thats for sure.

As for decision making structures, how long have you got? The short answer is I believe in direct democracy with people making decisions themselves at local levels and electing delegates to higher bodies for national and international decision making with all delegates subject to recall if they don't do what they were sent to do. We have some fantastic technology right now that could aid that process but if you want a longer answer you'll have to wait until my celebration drinks have worn off. ;)

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

The Reasons

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I don't know about the veracity or accuracy of that poll but if it's true it's a harrowing indictment of ignorance. According to this, 30% of no voters didn't know what they were voting for and 24% voted no to keep Ireland's power and identity. Baffling.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

I don't know about the veracity or accuracy of that poll but if it's true it's a harrowing indictment of ignorance. According to this, 30% of no voters didn't know what they were voting for and 24% voted no to keep Ireland's power and identity. Baffling.

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I'm sure among the 30% were people who felt there were parts of the treaty being deliberately kept from them - and they'd have been a shrewder lot than most who voted yes. The 24% would have included those who wanted to keep a democratic say over the 105 areas that were being handed to the unelected commission. The poll by the way was from the Irish Times.

Surprised at the i believe 53% turn out.

From talking to people that were going to Vote many said they did not understand the Treaty. I think it is likely they were not familiar with the institutions.

I think overall FF did an exceptionally poor job so hard to know if it would make a difference. Cowan is off to terrible start as it will be like noose around his neck everytime he goes to EU meetings and has to stand in the corner.

Still waiting for a solution from the No side. The EU cannot continue to function where 1 small country can veto the actions of the remaining 26. I think there is a chance we will lose negotiating power being outside the "heart of Europe". Just look at the UK with a lot of votes in the EU but little influence.

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Originally Posted by pete

Surprised at the i believe 53% turn out.

Still waiting for a solution from the No side. The EU cannot continue to function where 1 small country can veto the actions of the remaining 26. I think there is a chance we will lose negotiating power being outside the "heart of Europe". Just look at the UK with a lot of votes in the EU but little influence.

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Not quite the 47% No vote, eh??

We have a solution already, which is the one we're currently working with. There is no reason whatsoever for this con job to come into effect, only to rub politico's ego's. The fact that 1 country vetoes the actions of the others, is not our fault, nor responsibility, that lies with the big states in the EU who, after the French and Dutch told them where to go last time, demanded that it should not be put to referendum anywhere bar here. The Czech President has already stated that following our No vote, their ratification process may not go ahead. I suspect more parliaments may follow suit. We may not be alone on this after all, but even if we are, the EU might be able to screw the Spanish electorate, the UK electorate, the Hungarian electorate by banning them from having referendums, but they can never screw ours. They can respect our result the hard way or the easy way. The hard being, if they want us to vote again, sure we'll vote No and No and No again until they get the message. The easy way would be to throw the whole thing in the bin, where it belongs. It is invalid without our approval and that's that.

On a sidebar, I am personally disgusted with the branding of the No voters, as "clueless" and "working-class". :mad:This crap was rejected in 33 of our constituencies, by voters from all backgrounds and from all over the country, who stood up for Ireland and refused to be bullied by the lobby groups, the government, and the EU, into voting their way. This is the third time it has been rejected, it is only fit for shredding. Get back to operating the EU under the Nice Treaty which is the fairest solution there is.

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Originally Posted by pete

I think there is a chance we will lose negotiating power being outside the "heart of Europe". Just look at the UK with a lot of votes in the EU but little influence.

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Jaysus, Fine Gael's poster worked on one person anyway! :D

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Originally Posted by SMorgan

Funny, what I find disgusting, is the moaning and the pathetic excuses of the pro-Treaty side who appear to be in denial. As Bertie would say, these people are living in La La land if they really believe that the Treaty was rejected on the basis that people were afraid of abortion-on-demand or conscription to a European Army or only being allowed 2 children

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I don't think anyone thinks that, most Yes voters I know that are disgusted with this think a lot of people voted No because the Irish voters are known for looking after number one, the 'what's in it for me' attitude. This ******** about going back to Europe and getting more for Ireland sickens me, as if they had never done anything for this small tin pot country that we once were. There were people I know who were saying they were voting No because of the Neutrality issue, or they don't want to give up the commisioner (they failed to understand that a) the commisioner was meant to work in Europe's interests anyway, and b) that was across the board, not just for Ireland), but I'd say they were in the minority. You also had people like MyPost on here and he's advocating voting No if you were undecided, where as the Yes voters I know advocated not voting if you were undecided, perhaps we shouldn't have 'bullied' them that way :rolleyes:

All in all I'm very disappointed that this island still has such an insular view on the world at large, and there's a large part of me hoping that the EU does push on with this and give Ireland an ultimatum of like it or lump, not the most democratic of outlooks I grant you, but then I don't trust the Irish public in voting (here, the abortion issue and the national elections have brought that on).

And honestly BohsPartisan I give you a bit more credit than to believe that only the Yes side were trying to browbeat the Irish public into voting one way. SMorgan I'm sorry to hear that you are in fact blind, and am intrigued as to how you post on here, given that you didn't see any of the No campaign's posters.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

The Reasons

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Honestly three of the top four reasons are moronic

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Originally Posted by jebus

Honestly three of the top four reasons are moronic

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As I already said there are probably several sub-groups put together and named by the people collating the data. Its common practice, I work with stats and we do it all the time. The categories are based on a subjective interpretation of the data. So if someone answered, I think the government are deceiving us, (which they were), it would go into that top category. If someone said because there will be areas of decision making taken away from us they'd have been put in the sovereignty category, if they said they were concerned with the militarisation of Europe it would have gone under neutrality etc. None of those reasons are moronic. What is absolutely pitiful is the whinging of the yes side. I have never seen so many grown adults acting like tantrum throwing toddlers.

If Yes had won you'd be saying we are gloating, and we'd be saying you are whinging, instead it's the other way around, big surprise

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Originally Posted by jebus

If Yes had one you'd be saying we are gloating, and we'd be saying you are whinging, instead it's the other way around, big surprise

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Only if you were actually gloating. I don't think I'm gloating too much. I'm very happy with the result and have no problem letting that show but I haven't been attacking people on the Yes side for their supposed stupidity as you have been doing to the No side. Jebus, honestly I always though you were one of the more clued in foot.ie posters (you and ltid which gave me a good impression of Limerick fans!) but you are completely off the mark on this issue and like the very few people I know wo voted yes, are in a state of denial.

What happened yesterday and thursday was IMO the most positive thing to happen to this country in ages. People who don't normally vote got up and had their say. There was a decent turn out and a majority of the people who voted told the entire political establishment and the media that they won't be bullied or talked down to.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Only if you were actually gloating. I don't think I'm gloating too much.

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You're not, but I'm on about the No side in general just as I assume you're on about the Yes side whinging in general. Forgive me if I'm coming off bitter but when you've just read a report with Mary Lou McDonald crowing about the result, Gerry Adams pushing her as champion of the people, and then you hear that Libertas might be launching a political group off the back of this (good luck to them :D) you tend to sound a bit ****ed off

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

What happened yesterday and thursday was IMO the most positive thing to happen to this country in ages. People who don't normally vote got up and had their say. There was a decent turn out and a majority of the people who voted told the entire political establishment and the media that they won't be bullied or talked down to.

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You see I understand why people like yourself voted No, I really do, Wangball on this forum is another one I've talked to about this and he has valid reasons for voting no, which is all fine. What I can't stand is the feeling that this Treaty was shot down because the No vote were able to scare a minority into voting no, and then persuade those that didn't read up on the Treaty to vote No instead of just not voting. To that end I'm not happy with the result (would like to think I wouldn't be if that margin of people pushed the Yes vote through too), but I'm not 100% sure that a lot of the No vote came from people that don't understand why they were voting No, that's not what the democratic process should be about in my opinion. And do you not think Libertas and their ilk weren't bullying people to vote No as well?

What's to be p*ssed off about? Do you really think anything of significance is going to change because of this? Honestly? We all know damn well it isn't. Ireland's not going to be booted out of the EU, neither are we going to resign from it. Ireland isn't going to be "punished" - honest to god - because the EU can't be seen to be doing that, particularly given the outpouring of support for our decision by the man on the street in the countries that weren't allowed to vote.

And we all know that the people behind this won't give up, that they'll be back again with another version. It's probably already drafted. It probably has a few concessions in it to push it through, just less than half of what we want. That's how politics works.

Get over yourself, it's not the end of the world.

adam

By the way, the "No Plan B" line being put about by yesterday - including by the Head F*cker himself - is the most disingenuous poppycock they've come out with yet. There's always a Plan B in politics, because again, that's how politics works. To suggest that they haven't even considered the possibility that we'd vote No is an outright lie on their part.

The only alternative is that they're telling the truth, which makes them utterly unfit to lead, on a level talent and intelligence-wise with Martin Cullen. Although I'm not sure who'd argue with that today anyway.

adam

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Originally Posted by jebus

And do you not think Libertas and their ilk weren't bullying people to vote No as well?

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I think Libertas were honest enough in what I know of them (which isn't that much because I pretty much ignored them) but their concerns would not be mine. Cóir were peddling some crazy sh"t but I don't know anyone who voted no because of "euthanasia" or "abortion" and on that poll those reasons didn't register. I don't think what they did can be regarded in the same light as the Yes side's "Vote Yes or your going to be in all kind of **** you bunch of stupid ignorant plebs" campaign, fully endorsed by the media.

By the way I was surprised when I woke up this morning and looked out the window. Where is the chaos I was promised?

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

What's to be p*ssed off about? Do you really think anything of significance is going to change because of this? Honestly? We all know damn well it isn't. Ireland's not going to be booted out of the EU, neither are we going to resign from it. Ireland isn't going to be "punished" - honest to god - because the EU can't be seen to be doing that, particularly given the outpouring of support for our decision by the man on the street in the countries that weren't allowed to vote.

And we all know that the people behind this won't give up, that they'll be back again with another version.

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Your last line is what I'm ****ed off about. Nothing would have changed in the general populaces eyes if it had been passed either. Where have I said we'll be punished? I've said the EU could press ahead and issue us with an invite to join anyway, which Italy and Croatia have said they are in favour of this morning, and that it would be up to us to choose then, but I haven't said Germany are going to rain hell, fire and brimstone on us have I? Take your own advice from your next quote

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Get over yourself, it's not the end of the world.

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Yes because I've been littering my discussions talking about the Jebus clause of the Lisbon treaty :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I'm pro Europe. I'm for a federal Europe. But I'm for a democratic Europe, not one where unelected bureaucrats are calling the shots

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Unelected? Name one. This treaty was put together by elected officials including our own.

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a set back for the political class

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What in the flying **** is the political class?

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

It's probably already drafted. It probably has a few concessions in it to push it through, just less than half of what we want. That's how politics works.

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What do we want?

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

What do we want?

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It seems to be very difficult to tell. I've read on various sites that it was easy to identify voter dissatisfacion with the Nice treaty, and deal with it to the voters' satisfaction.

With this, the issues seem to be more wide-ranging, and in some cases false, and will be very difficult to deal with to satisfy those who voted 'no' first time around.

That said, I think that if the government put enough money and effort into it, and really tried, they could get a 'yes' vote.