Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

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Originally Posted by John83

Lads, I know there's been some calls for lighter touch moderation, but the argument about the argument is off topic and frankly stupid. Back on topic or take it to PMs.

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Sorry John, I was preparing my post before I saw yours.

No worries. I appreciate the calm and reasoned response all the same. I don't really want to shut off the discussion as it pertains to what factors are important in terms of youth development here. I'd just like to take the heat out of it. It's turned a little personal and circular, which drives out potentially good contributions.

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Originally Posted by John83

Lads, I know there's been some calls for lighter touch moderation, but the argument about the argument is off topic and frankly stupid. Back on topic or take it to PMs.

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So what if it's off topic a bit. There's fcuk all else happening on the Ireland section of the forum. Lads are engaging in debate and here comes the shut down again.
Let them talk ffs. No one is being abusive

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Originally Posted by John83

Lads, I know there's been some calls for lighter touch moderation, but the argument about the argument is off topic and frankly stupid. Back on topic or take it to PMs.

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You can thank Pinnapple for that!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

This is great craic altogether!

CSAD, in all fairness, offering stats to support a counter-argument isn’t twisting truth, it’s just supporting an argument with data. You’re making it sound like Pineappler and our collective media have an agenda to actually improve conditions in Irish football just for the sheer disruptive contrarian heck of it, or are spurred on by some mystical sinister force (George Soros maybe?) determined to undermine John Delaney’s golden legacy.

I think we all agree and enjoy that the underage teams are doing well and that is proof that some things are done right. And the counter-factual - might it be better? - can’t be proven but would appear to be likely based on comparable countries’ experience. We have a deep on-the-ground football culture in this country so you’d expect a certain level of achievement but ultimately it’s a numbers game: the more kids that are well coached and that get the hours required the higher the potential standard of the system in general. I’d say that’s necessary but not sufficient. You need to add infrastructure, pathways, a functional national governance structure and all that too.

I think it’s a red herring that Croatia or Uruguay players faced legal impediments to moving abroad until 18. The point is that they didn’t all move abroad and it seems that benefitted them. Causation and correlation and all that notwithstanding.

And there’s nothing new in the observation that any small/mid-sized nation needs a core of good players peppered with some exceptional players to challenge at the very top.

I’d add an slightly ethereal factor at play too: culture. Much was made of Spain’s culture at the Euros, the shared national appreciation of how to play football, support teammates, find space etc. Spain’s culture was superior to England’s. Now obviously England has lots of coaches and academies and rarely export players abroad but I’d argue that it’s hard to create a culture without retaining players at home for longer and having lots of coaches teaching to a common philosophy. Denmark, Croatia and Uruguay are all countries with an identifiable and durable football culture.

If it was possible to run a regression analysis on the factors that contribute to a successful system I’d say the independent factors that some of us are citing would have high coefficients. Some of us are saying we’re doing OK despite obvious failings, whereas you seem to be saying relax, we’re doing fine, changes are only required at the margins.

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I'm not giving Pinnapple's argument anymore oxygen, all its doing is trying to derail the discussion.

But is anything good being done because I look at all these media reports and I see little to nothing of it mentioned, all I know is if things were truly as bad as the media paints why are Ireland not at the bottom of European football at youth level? The issue I have is the underage teams results seem to indicate that something is done being right and yet I have to do digging on the internet to find out what this is which is an issue as surely its the media's job to present a balanced discussion...which is what they ARENT doing.

I do get what you're saying about culture but I don't think keeping players at home necessarily creates that, it might help it to a certain extent but the extent you suggest is overblown. If you look at the stars in most countries you've mentioned. I would accept Croatia mostly as a country where this is achieved but countries like Denmark & Uruguay less so, if you go to these countries like Denmark for instance you'll find the most supported players are players that left when they were teens without actually playing much of a game for their club sides. They are obviously doing something right but I dont really see how culture is the reason for it.

That's the point, if we were only doing "OK" then considering how bad things are according to media outlets then why are we as high as we are at underage level consistently...obviously we must be doing better than OK...or maybe things arent as bad as made out and the media is just sensationalising things like they've a tendency to do?

I havent said relax or any of the words you suggest I said, In fact all ive done is ask simple logical questions which would be easy to answer if things were truly as bad as made out. I've yet to actually get a reply on some of these questions which makes me think some of these media people are just having a whinge rather than doing their job.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

So what if it's off topic a bit. There's fcuk all else happening on the Ireland section of the forum. Lads are engaging in debate and here comes the shut down again.
Let them talk ffs. No one is being abusive

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Ah in fairness, it was wandering a bit into circular stuff. I think it's reasonable for a mod to avoid the discussion circling the drain like that. CSAD's immediate reply is a good example of the sort of stuff I think John was trying to avoid, while encouraging it back to Stutts' post, which was well thought-out.

That seems to me to be a core role of a mod tbh.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

But is anything good being done because I look at all these media reports and I see little to nothing of it mentioned, all I know is if things were truly as bad as the media paints why are Ireland not at the bottom of European football at youth level? The issue I have is the underage teams results seem to indicate that something is done being right and yet I have to do digging on the internet to find out what this is which is an issue as surely its the media's job to present a balanced discussion...which is what they ARENT doing.

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There's a lot to reply to in your full post, but I think elatedscum was right to refer to the Dokter-era legacy which was policy-driven and has been showing results.

In terms of the media giving a balanced picture of the underage situation. I think we have media who have a genuine interest in what is happening, care and want it to improve, so point out what needs to be done, and then we have a large swathe of Irish football media who do not care what's happening and are more or less solely interested in football abroad and the international team. It mirrors the fanbase.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

There's a lot to reply to in your full post, but I think elatedscum was right to refer to the Dokter-era legacy which was policy-driven and has been showing results.

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I mean that is 100% true. But it has to be said, what Dokter implemented wasnt rocket science and I dont that ALONE is the reason for Ireland improving at underage level. When I ask why are we performing well at underage level when everything is a disaster at grassroots level according to the media I'm not doing so in a patronising way, I'm legitimately asking why because the media wont cover it from a balanced perspective. It's actually quite irresponsible of the media to do this tbh.

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Originally Posted by Acornvilla

In terms of the media giving a balanced picture of the underage situation. I think we have media who have a genuine interest in what is happening, care and want it to improve, so point out what needs to be done, and then we have a large swathe of Irish football media who do not care what's happening and are more or less solely interested in football abroad and the international team. It mirrors the fanbase.

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I mean they obviously care but there's a difference between highlighting what needs to be done and just having a whinge, and most media outlets fall into the latter camp.

Which media individuals/orgs do you consider are doing that out of interest?

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Originally Posted by Acornvilla

Which media individuals/orgs do you consider are doing that out of interest?

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To be honest, way too many to list but the worst that comes to mind is Gavin Cooney...the term "attention wh0re" comes to mind.

I don't understand how you'd draw such a conclusion tbh, but I'm not sure I have the energy for the 17 page argument that would ensue :D

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Originally Posted by Acornvilla

I don't understand how you'd draw such a conclusion tbh, but I'm not sure I have the energy for the 17 page argument that would ensue :D

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17 pages isnt required, I mean every one of them is different but usually one thing they all have in common is a sensationalised title that is clearly been written to grab attention and get clicks but is also nonsense at the same time. Gavin Cooney is the worst to the point ive just blocked his social media so I don't have it clogging up my feed.

I did find Paul Fennessy to be a good writer though and I find his articles nice and refreshing compared to the garbage Cooney writes.

This might be interesting

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

This might be interesting

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Now that is really interesting and something an Irish fan could get behind.
Conjures up images of thousands of Irish fans investing in LOI clubs and changing the dynamic for the owners.

Tough week for the senior team but at least all is going well behind the scenes. Cuts left, right and centre alongside almost certainly a nice pay rise for Canham.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...ent-programme/

The youth development has to be through the LoI academies. The FAI can increase the political pressure for investment by bringing in the three tier academy structure. If say 19 of the 20 clubs are only at tier 3, it highlights the clear need for investment and where the investment has to go.
The main political pressure is on an increase to the betting tax to fund the investment in the academy structure.

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Originally Posted by legendz

The youth development has to be through the LoI academies. The FAI can increase the political pressure for investment by bringing in the three tier academy structure. If say 19 of the 20 clubs are only at tier 3, it highlights the clear need for investment and where the investment has to go.
The main political pressure is on an increase to the betting tax to fund the investment in the academy structure.

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At the same time though that's gonna take years to achieve so the FAI should be doing more not less to fill that gap until the LOI academies start improving.

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Originally Posted by JR89

At the same time though that's gonna take years to achieve so the FAI should be doing more not less to fill that gap until the LOI academies start improving.

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That's the thing. How do they bridge the gap? Are all the best talent for each age group encouraged to join the top one or two academies? If young lads from Munster have to relocate to Dublin for a Tier 1 academy, expenses covered for them possibly.