You mean Sir Tony O'Reilly?Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
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You mean Sir Tony O'Reilly?Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
You might and the majority here does too but that's not the case with most Northern fans or the IFA. FIFA have said that the players can choose which team in Ireland they want to play for. If this is about the right to choose, surely that's been sorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
The people spoke at the 1918 election. A plebiscite was never granted. The whole of Ireland joined the union in one piece. Surely it's not unreasonable to see what the majority of the whole of Ireland wanted. As for the emotive words, what utter b*llsh*t. And I like the snide remark suggesting the 'republic' never having the bottle to take on the British. That really makes me laugh from someone where violence has been so key to change in the past four decades. Britain lost 26 counties of its country not because it was feeling generous. It would have lost another six had the most of the people in that area decided they wanted to be Irish first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Ulster is indeed Irish. It has nine counties. This Ulster identity is primarily British based in Ireland, a sort of dog culture surviving in the manger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Is that the best example you can give for general p*ssedoffness with the royals where you're from?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I haven't voted for anything regarding the monarchy, and as you know having Maggie and Tone would have little power in a republic like Ireland or Germany. Not that they wouldn't wanting to stick their nose in. I just don't want to lick their backside every time I want to post a letter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Really? Crucial stories when things happen like the occasional CIRA bombing. And someone in their forties would have forgotten all about Ireland from the seventies to the nineties? Yeah whatever? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Hmm, except that you are out of step with a large majority of your own community who see themselves otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Whilst I'd sort of like them to all acknowledge their 'Irishness', somehow I don't think they're going to be especially obliging or quick in this respect.
Yawn. So today you're not Irish??Quote:
I remain 100% British, as I always have been. Nothing is diluted. I'm not claiming to be 200% of naything, nor is that implicit anywhere.
They could have had the choice you're so keen to deny them, ie to be British and Irish in any combination they fancy. I've no problem with some of them feeling primarily British.
As for the community at large, would have no great urge to deny the unionists anything apart from their usual control-freakery.
That withstanding, as repeatedly mentioned, there's been no headlong rush by them to acknowledge their right to Irish citizenship or even to the slighest degree, barely recognise any other aspect of Irishness except to acknowledge the name 'Northern Ireland'.
This is confirmed by the IFA who insist on pandering to a unionist audience by using a British flag and anthem, both of which are barely acknowledged in other parts of that state, FFS.
Despite the laudable aim of FFA, which must be a charade in this context. And claiming that the whole community clamour to support what is now a divisive team.
Eh? Crystal balls, metaphorical or otherwise are used to look into, er, the future. Only you would draw something from the past!!Quote:
Don't need one to see into the past, their intentions over decades could be quite clearly identified from their actions.
Hmm. I use the word 'expected' and you say 'forced'.Quote:
Are you quite mad? No-one forces anyone, at school, or otherwise, to be a unionist or support the monarchy.
Draw your own conclusions on interpretation or of relative sanity!!!
Or lack of.
Er, No. There are 23 actually happened/planned Orange marches in England this year. Shame on you!Quote:
Yes, in England they are, pretty much.
Trimble's response even now, would certainly be atypical of his generation;the only hope is for younger generations of nominal unionists, possibly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
See the point above re.unionists wanting largely to be seen as British
As for Venn diagrams, in this case, it would be the largest circle you ever could imagine, typically with the figure '1' inside to represent a certain person!!!
;)
I felt that I must inform you all of an incredible accolade that has been bestowed upon me. :o
A thread has been closed, and pinned, in my honour, in the Football Apartheid in Ireland sub-section of the Our Wee Country forum website.
It has been entitled - "Fly educates da North."
Don't feel obliged to congratulate me all at once! ;)
That's too bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
However, this thread here remains open for any bright academic wishing to further their education.
Well you and, especially the Predator (who I'd say just deserves the accolade, over a long hard season etc.) have fought the good fight in the face of irrationality, even our 'friends' on here, would sometimes struggle to match.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
That said, got bored of reading the sh*te on on there which makes this thread look like 'knockabout stuff' (and the temptation to post was just too much!)....
Indeed. But what has that to do with me pointing out that I'm as Irish as anyone, then you and others repeatedly denying it contrary to all evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez
I thought you were talking about Articles 2 and 3, which didn't appear for decades after 1918. You asked why unionists didn't accept them, I answered.Quote:
The people spoke at the 1918 election
Getting a bit emotive, are we?Quote:
As for the emotive words, what utter b*llsh*t
I think you're the one obsessed by violence, compadre. I was clearly suggesting (repeating what I've said through this and similar threads) that the Republic had done nothing to negotiate a united Ireland. Nor even, on a much smaller scale, to move the border slightly so that say Derry Cityside and Newry (both of which have had an 85-90% nationalist majority for decades) would be on the right side. They didn't do it because they never had any intention of it, broadly for the reason I described.Quote:
And I like the snide remark suggesting the 'republic' never having the bottle to take on the British. That really makes me laugh from someone where violence has been so key to change in the past four decades
Charming analogy. Getting in one of your favorite snide digs?Quote:
Ulster is indeed Irish. It has nine counties. This Ulster identity is primarily British based in Ireland, a sort of dog culture surviving in the manger
Er, you asked me for basically the opposite, I answered. Most people at my school, like most people in Britain generally, support the monarchy.Quote:
Is that the best example you can give for general p*ssedoffness with the royals where you're from?
Relax. If we get an elected presidente here in your lifetime or mine, given the powerless ceremonial of the job it's more likely to be someone relatively juniot or on the fringe of politics. Like McAleese or Mary-Mary Robinson. Or maybe a sleb, Stephen Fry or someone like that.Quote:
as you know having Maggie and Tone would have little power in a republic like Ireland or Germany. Not that they wouldn't wanting to stick their nose in. I just don't want to lick their backside every time I want to post a letter
Get real, amigo. They probably weren't that interested in it when it was a news story. So they'll be less interested in it 12 or 15 years on.Quote:
And someone in their forties would have forgotten all about Ireland from the seventies to the nineties? Yeah whatever?
I stand corrected. It's hardly shameful on me. I was agreeing with Lopez's point that there's little support for the Orange Order in England; the low figure- much lower than in the past- basically supports it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
More pompous claptrap.
And issue avoidance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sullivinho
Great quote on OWC, by someone called Eamonn an Chnoic. He asked why the Republic were called the beggars, suggests the nickname the Academy for the North :D:
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Originally Posted by Jonny
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Originally Posted by Eamonn
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Originally Posted by Megax
Maybe the IFA shoud be renamed IFAS or the Irish FAS, a training scheme for young Irsh international players?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eamonn
Bitter Fex would be more apt for that shower....
Or in a certain case, 'B. & I.' allegedly, as if.
The 'beggars' tag always gives me great amusement, the poor souls don't even know the history of their own wee team. Like the side that played under McMenemy in 1999.
Maik Taylor (Born Germany)
Iain Jenkins (Born lancashire)
Jim Whitley (Born Zambia)
Kevin Horlock (Born Kent)
Mark Williams (Born Cheshire)
Jon McCarthy (Born Hartlepool)
Danny Sonner ( Born wigan)
James Quinn (Born Coventry)
Jeff Whitley (Born Zambia)
Ian Dowie (Born Hertfordshire)
Or the birthplace of many of their present u17 & u19 internationals
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3900/map2o.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
Quite right, its strange how in their blind fury at Irishmen choosing to play for Ireland they start ranting on about the FAI having the audacity to field Irish citizens born in another part of the world. Maik Taylor's NI "qualifications" would make Tony Cascarino blush.
or B&iQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
The NI identity pie chart is suitably flexible.
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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
.......are they not the ferry people? ;)
As in 'British & Irish', as claimed by certain insecure individuals!
Though even a ferry company wouldn't claim to be more than 50% of each! ;)
And the pie chart referred to, in the case of one of those individuals would need to be extremely flexible....
Except you think when we talk about unionists collective mindset, you automatically assume we're, er, talking about you! As they generally claim to be a 'different' sort of animal. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I agree. I didn't realise that Irish and British were mutually exclusive. His ancestors have probably been on this tiny island for the last 4 centuries so I would personally think he's entitled to consider himself just as Irish as anyone else on here. Just as someone from Scotland or Wales can also be both Scottish or Welsh and British.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
He's just an Irishman that wants NI to remain part of Britain and who doesn't identify with the tricolour. Considering there was no tricolour or Irish passports 200 years ago and all people born on Ireland were considered to be British subjects does that mean that all our ancestors were not as Irish as those of us lucky enough to be born in the republic (or born abroad to Irish parents before Lopez has a hissy fit for not including him in my definition) in recent years.
As GR has already pointed out, he identifies with a secondary Irish nation. By calling himself Irish, he's not seeking to identity with the Irish nation, as per our understanding, but with a (Northern) Irish nation that also considers itself to be part of the British nation along similar lines to Scottish/ British, English/ British, Welsh/ British.
All fascinating, but what Irish person would really want Ireland 'per se' to be part of Britain? Though don't deny they exist!
But the point is unionists (in the North) in general, currently don't see themselves as Irish, but British.
The clue's in the name.
Why would they do that? Both are basically Englishmen who qualified for a dual nationality according to the rules at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boovidge
I don't. Haven't you noticed my posts on the thread pointing out where I disagree with other unionists?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
I want part of Ireland to remain part of Britain. If by 'per se' you mean 'as a whole', I don't know anyone who wants that, apart from a few journalist stirrers like like Kevin Myers, maybe.Quote:
what Irish person would really want Ireland 'per se' to be part of Britain?
This makes no sense. Pretty much 100% of unionists in Northern Ireland use the name Northern Ireland. It's part of Ireland, they're Irish.Quote:
But the point is unionists (in the North) in general, currently don't see themselves as Irish, but British. The clue's in the name
Indeed, they probably have (various relatives who researched it have got back as far as the mid 19th so far). But I don't need them to prove how Irish I am.Quote:
Originally Posted by Young Irish
Er, I don't consider it to be secondary to anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by IFK 101
That's the problem with your understanding, it's exclusive and unnecessarily restrictive. 'The Irish nation' suggests there's only one as defined by you.Quote:
By calling himself Irish, he's not seeking to identity with the Irish nation, as per our understanding, but with a (Northern) Irish nation that also considers itself to be part of the British nation
Noted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
But it's not defined by me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
When it comes to how I identify myself politically, that post sums up my own feelings beautifully (though no doubt Ardee Bhoy's fingers are already straining at the keyboard to educate me as to what I do/should/must feel etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
However, whatever one feels on the vexed political questions of "nationality" and "identity" etc, I genuinely feel it is (or should be, at any rate) entirely irrelevant to the debate over footballing eligibility.
For as a Southern GAA fan put it so eloquently on another forum:
"So by virtue of the GFA agreement people can be Irish within* Northern Ireland and have that right secured. So why would they need to play for another sports team, when their Irishness is assured within Northern Ireland? The GFA argument actually works against those who want to play for the Republic"
Otherwise, if representing the ROI at football is somehow essential towards "being Irish", would that mean eg a brother of Darron Gibson who has never played for ROI, is somehow "less Irish" than he? Would someone like to tell eg Gerry Taggart that he is somehow "less Irish" for having played 51 times for NI? (I'd pay good money to see that one!) What about eg Gerry Armstrong? Are his NI caps cancelled out by his also having played Gaelic Football at Croke Park for his club? And where does Martin O'Neill stand on the issue? I mean to say, can he offset his NI caps by his own GAA career? And does his management of Celtic offset his acceptance of an MBE from Her Majesty? Perhaps someone like Kingdom Kerry can solve this conundrum, seeing as he knows everything else about NI (from a distance of 200 miles...)
Of course, there is actually a much simpler solution staring us in the face, if only people would acknowledge it. Namely, there are two Football Associations in Ireland, each with its own territory, jurisdiction and international football team. So that if you are born within the territory of one, that is whom you represent; whereas if born within the territory of the other, then the same applies. For that way, both the IFA and FAI would be treated in exactly the same way as all of the other 206 Member Associations of FIFA, whereby being born within one Associations territory does NOT automatically give someone a choice to represent some other Association (outwith the normal exception of ancestry or residence, deriving from Dual Nationality).
Of course, such a suggestion will no doubt raise the ire of small-minded individuals who cannot see beyond their own petty political prejudices towards the wider interests of sport. Nor do they appear to possess the integrity to acknowledge it when others reconcile their personal political allegiances etc with representing one Irish international football team over another.
Speaking of which, the most recent example comes from this morning, when Damien Johnson issued the following statement on the occasion of his retirement from international football:
“It has been a huge honour for me to have represented Northern Ireland and I have enjoyed many special moments throughout my international career,” said the 31-year-old, who has been capped 56 times for his country.
“I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has helped me during my time with the Northern Ireland team: the managers who I have played under; the backroom staff; all of the players I've played alongside; and the incredible fans for their support.
“It hasn't been an easy decision for me to make but, with the help of my family, I feel it is the best decision for my career.
“I'd particularly like to thank Nigel Worthington for his support and understanding over the last couple of weeks. I wish Nigel and the team every success in the forthcoming European Championships.”Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/nis...#ixzz0v66Xr6OT
Quite honestly, I wouldn't swap the privilege of watching a true Gentleman and Professional like DJ for 10 x Darron "Irish" Gibsons or 10 x Shane "Catholic" Duffys. Indeed, I should probably pity those ROI fans from "the North" who will never feel the pride I and my fellow NI fans feel when 11 players from the same wee bit of the world as theirs, put aside whatever political allegiances they may have and march out to take on all-comers from the rest of the world, win, lose or draw.
* - The GFA specifically includes: "Recognition of the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose"
You Irishness is a Irishness based on separation EG, separation of the Irish nation.
'Tis a strange sense of nationality alright...
You actually come across as being quite a bitter person eg, someone who cannot accept that for many Irish people who live in the north, we are happy to support and play for a team that represents every part of the island, as is the case in every other sport in Ireland. You almost sound like someone who left the country 30 years ago and believe that the old thinking of 'our way or no way' should still be the norm.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Feel no pity eg, the pride of watching lads from Derry, dublin, Cork and beyond come together to represent you on the world stage is indeed a sight to behold and a pleasure that never falters with time.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Really? You see, such a conclusion may only derive from an assumption that ones political outlook supercedes all other badges of identity and further, that to be a "true" Irishman, that political outlook must be that of a Nationalist/Republican/Gael etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
Whereas this Irishman's "Irishness" is defined by a hell of a sight more than mere politics. Sure, I prefer to see my part of Ireland united with GB, rather than the Republic, but so what? I have many Irish friends who aspire to the reverse and it's no reason for me to think any less of them.
Conversely, I know many "loyal Prods", who never fail to stand for GSTQ or march to The Field on the Twelfth etc, to whom I wouldn't give the time of day.
All of them are Irish as far as I'm concerned, but I know which group I would rather be "united" with - and that has got nothing to do with a line on a map or an Election every five years.
So your Irishness is primarily geographical?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Cas will be announcing their decision of the case brought by the IFA against Daniel Kearns, the FAI & FIFA tomorrow
So its ok for you to decide what nationality you are k- but not alright for other unionists. Anyway - it would seem you are a minority in what you think. According to wiki (2006):Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
A 2006 report from the Institute of Governance stated that "Three-quarters of Northern Ireland’s Protestants regard themselves as British, but only 12 per cent of Northern Ireland’s Catholics do so. Conversely, a majority of Catholics (65%) regard themselves as Irish, whilst very few Protestants (5%) do likewise" and that "In Northern Ireland, very few respondents identify themselves as both British and Irish.-
75% of Protestants feel to be British; 12% of Catholics;
65% Catholics feel to be Irish; 5% of Protestants.
Institute of Governance, 2006. "National identities in the UK: do they matter?" Briefing No. 16, January 2006. Retrieved from http://www.institute-of-governance.o...riefing_16.pdf on August 24, 2006.
From that GR, don't think there are too many unionists have the same opinion that you do.
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Indeed, they probably have (various relatives who researched it have got back as far as the mid 19th so far). But I don't need them to prove how Irish I am.
In an earlier post you had a little dig at Garech de Brun really being Gary Browne. You are right about the Browne bit, but he happened to be christened Garech by Lord Oranmore, his father (longest serving member of the House of Lords). I suppose it would shock you to know that the current Lord Rosse (whose half brother married the Queen's sister) is actually called Brendan (Brendan was an Irish saint!).Quote:
That's the problem with your understanding, it's exclusive and unnecessarily restrictive. 'The Irish nation' suggests there's only one as defined by you.
Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit about how British people / those with British heritage have fitted into the 'Irish' nation without proclaiming how restrictive our notion of 'irishness' is.
You could start with Garech - a piece from Vanity Fair called 'A Little Brit Different'. http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/fe...200801#slide=7
His father, Lord Oranmore seems to have been even more interesting - here is a link to his obit in the Telegraph -
"His 100th birthday was celebrated with a family party at the Ritz. He was glad to receive a telegram from the President of Ireland, but disappointed by the card from the Queen, which had a large photograph of her on the front and seemed to him undignified. "Horrible," he muttered as he stuffed it back into the envelope.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...nd-Browne.html
It's acceptable for you to use dual-nationality to determine eligibility (yet you refer to us as "beggars" for using this selection approach) but not acceptable to use nationality, in the singular sense, as a basis for eligibility? Indeed that's a very simple and reasoned solution.....Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Do you truly feel that nationality should not be the defining principle of international football team eligibility? Or just in the case of Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Weak point.They don't 'need' to play for Ireland in order to have their 'Irishness' assured. The point is, that their Irish nationality allows them to play for the representative teams of the association governing football in Ireland, that being the FAI.Quote:
Originally posted by 'Southern GAA fan'
So by virtue of the GFA agreement people can be Irish within* Northern Ireland and have that right secured. So why would they need to play for another sports team, when their Irishness is assured within Northern Ireland? The GFA argument actually works against those who want to play for the Republic
So, basically, you would like to see FIFA's rules regarding international football team eligibility changed so that instead of being defined primarily by nationality, it is defined by territory alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Of course, any criticism of or objection to your proposal must come from an ignorant individual who cares not for the 'wider interests of sport'. It couldn't possibly make sense to any rational individual. That was sarcasm, just in case you're struggling with the interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Who is objecting to Johnson playing for Northern Ireland and being happy to have done so? Anyway, the snide, but obvious implication here is that the likes of Duffy and Gibson are not 'true Gentlemen' or professionals, which is a bit sad. Just get over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I wouldn't like to feel I'm "bitter" - I just see it as sticking up for my own team's interests, on this site in the face of concerted opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
As for other people in NI, I have long agreed (and stated) that people may support whichever team they like, for whatever reason or none. However, whilst supporting a team must be a matter of choice, playing for a team most emphatically is not - otherwise there would be no eligibility criteria.
Therefore if we must have criteria, then they should be fair and consistent. And it is undeniable that as presently framed, FIFA's Statutes discriminate against the IFA, as the only Member of 208 whose Territory and Jurisdiction is compromised, to the benefit of a rival, and stemming from a political policy of a foreign Government over which it (IFA or FIFA) has no influence.
As for other sports, I couldn't give a stuff what they do - why should I, or any other football fan?
Leaving aside the technical observation that I didn't leave "the" (i.e. my) country 30 years ago(!), all I ask is that "our" way be exactly the same as that of every other international country within FIFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
Especially since if that way is good enough for Damien Johnson, Sammy Clingan, Chris Baird or Niall McGinn etc, then I see no reason why it should not be good enough for everyone in NI. Of course, there may be some people whose politics clearly supercedes their view of sport, in which case, they don't have to play for NI if they don't want. However, I simply do not see why someone from eg Derry should be permitted an alternative "choice" on account of their politics, whereas someone from eg Bilbao, Tallinn, East Jerusalem or Pristina etc is not.
You see, if I followed your principle in allowing my politics to inform my footballing allegiance, then my equivalent would be to try to take pride in watching lads from Cardiff, Edinburgh, London and Belfast representing me on the world stage and as I've said before on this site, a United Kingdom team holds no greater attraction to me than a United Ireland team.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
Indeed, if we must reduce the debate down to crude simplifications (like eg Shane "I'm a Catholic, so obviously I want to play for Ireland" Duffy), I am immensely proud that my team is made up equally of RC/Nationalist and Prod/Unionist Irishmen, whereas yours derives solely from one subset.
And we're the "bigots" in all this...
Notwithstanding that my Irishness is actually an amalgam of many things, I guess that Geography is as good a starting point as any.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
Which does not contradict the point I was actually making, which is that we can all be equally and authentically Irish, without having all to share the same, prescribed political outlook. Which amongst other things, explains why when I can be both Irish (geographical, cultural, heritage etc) and British (political) at the same time.
You are misrepresenting what I said, whether deliberately or unconsciously I do nor know.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Think of it this way. If a footballer born eg in Paris (the territory of the FFF) wishes to represent Algeria, it is not sufficient that he may be able to persuade the Algerian Government to grant him Algerian (i.e. Dual) Nationality. He also has to demonstrate either an Algerian parent/grandparent, or have resided in the country for a minimum period. And this principle applies to 206 of the other 207 Member Associations of FIFA.
Whereas with the 208th (IFA), someone born within our territory may represent another Association, without having to meet the same additional criteria.
This is both inequitable and discriminatory and I would like to think that CAS would recognise this, even if FIFA won't (though I don't hold out much hope).
Oh well.
Again, you compare apple and pears. You are comparing someone who seeks dual nationality with someone who doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
So basically your Irish, but see most of Ireland as foreign?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Don't you take pride in all the London lads representing your team at the moment?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
And all the other parts of England & Scotland;Just cut out the middle-man and have a GB team.....
Of course "nationality" has to be at the heart of eligibility. However, you persistently ignore my contention that footballing "nationality" is not the same as political "nationality". Otherwise, why would FIFA recognise 208 "nations" (footballing), whereas the UN only recognises 192 "nations" (political)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Therefore if FIFA is going to abrogate to itself the right to define what is a footballing nation (which it does), then all I ask is that it treat all 208 of them exactly the same (which it doesn't).
Otherwise you end up with the situation whereby Governments' (political) definition of "Nationality" override FIFA's; which might be fine except that FIFA resists such a notion when eg Qatar or Cape Verde tries it (i.e. for Brazilian-born footballers), but permit it when the Irish Republic's Government tries it (i.e. for NI-born footballers).
Except that that "Irish Nationality" on which you rely is a purely political construct, from a political Government, contrived for reasons which have nothing to do with football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
I contend that FIFA should assert its own definition of "Nationality", which is a solely footballing construct (eg permits Wales, Hong Kong, Macao, Faroes, Palestine etc, even though there are no such politically recognised "Nations") and which includes NI equally alongside ROI.
And that being so, NI/IFA should be entitled to exactly the same territorial integrity as that of the ROI/FAI (and every other Member Association of FIFA).
Otherwise by your reasoning, those footballers born within the territory of the CFB who have subsequently acquired Qatari Nationality, entirely legally and legitimately, should be entitled to represent the Association governing football in Qatar, that being the QFA.
(Btw, the FAI is not the "Association governing football in Ireland [sic]", it is the Association governing football in the Irish Republic)
No, nor is that what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
I'm stating that the starting point for international eligibility should be that of Territory, more specifically the territory of a Member Association of FIFA. Thereafter, the player in question should also have the appropriate (political) Nationality.
And where someone possesses a (political) Nationality outwith that of the Association's territory within which he was born, then he should also be required to demonstrate a suitable "connection" (ancestry or residence) with whichever other Nationality (political and footballing) he wishes to represent. Which is how it works for 207 of the 208 "Territories" within FIFA.
If the cap fits...Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
In the meantime, I am genuinely open to any sensible, rational rebuttal of what I am contending but with respect, you have not supplied one yet.
(Note that I have done you the courtesy of replying to all your points in turn, whether my replies are valid or otherwise. Whereas you have "cherry-picked from my posts, misrepresenting or distorting as you've gone along)
No-one, but once again, that was not my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
In fact, my point was directed to the likes of Ardee Bhoy, Den Perry, Kingdom Kerry etc, who in castigating the NI team and its fans as all being "anti-Irish, Union Jack-waving bigots" etc, are clearly implying that anyone who plays for NI cannot be truly and authentically "Irish" etc, which must be deeply insulting to players I cited, such as Taggart, Armstrong, O'Neill and Johnson etc.
Of course, if you want to join in with AB, DP and KK etc in subcribing to such a prejudiced and intolerant view, then go ahead.
I hadn't intended to conflate directly the notions of "Gentlemanliness" and "Professionalism" from DJ to Duffy and Gibson, though in fairness I can see why you might infer that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Rather, I was expressing my admiration for DJ (amongst other things for those two exemplary qualities of his), whilst disparaging Duffy and Gibson, for the way they are effectively allowing their political outlook to inform their footballing position, including disprespecting their erstwhile teammates in the various NI teams they chose to represent, then reject.
And in Duffy's case particularly, although he qualifies entirely legitimately for ROI, and I wished him well in that at the time, he greatly compounded his offence when it emerged that at the very same time as he and his Da were publicly professing their gratitutude and affection for NI/IFA for all the help they were giving him etc, at the same time they were privately negotiating to switch to the FAI/ROI.
And when he subsequently tried to justify his deceit by introducing religion into the equation ("Obviously as a Catholic I want to play for Ireland etc"), I lost the last vestige of my former respect for him.
P.S. If you are truly concerned for my ability to "get over it", don't worry, I accept that both those players have made their choice. But I'll be fcuked if I have to respect them for what they did, the reasons why they did it, and the way in which it was done.
I understand the point you are making, which essentially repeats that of FIFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
However, I do not see why in principle FIFA should distinguish between someone who happens automatically to have another Nationality, from someone who seeks to assert/apply for another Nationality to which he is legitimately entitled.
I am one of 6 million Irish people, five million of whom have/ascribe to a different political opinion to mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
Consequently, their Passport is also different from mine, so in that narrow sense, I suppose we are "foreign" to each other.
So Congratulations! Award yourself a Gold Star for having "caught me out", then go to bed, otherwise your mother will be scolding you for staying up late...
I take pride in the fact that with one exception*, my team is made up of players who were either born in NI, or have at least one parent/grandparent born in NI.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
* - The one exception being, of course, Maik Taylor, who qualified under an earlier rule, acceptable to FIFA, which we (IFA/SFA/FAW/FA) have since deleted. Of course, after 80+ caps during 12 years of exemplary and committed service, Big Maik is every bit as much one of the "Green And White Army" as eg Tony Cascarino was one of the "Boys in Green".