Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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13/12/2022, 11:55 PM
legendz

2024 seems optimistic.
https://www.echolive.ie/corksport/arid-40778571.html
If the third tier does get off the ground, it was suggested that third level teams might be invited also.
14/12/2022, 6:24 AM
Shinkicker

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

This completely understands demographics*.

NI is heavily urbanised East of the Bann, much less so to the West. Which is not unlike ROI, where the East/South is heavily urbanised, but the West/North much less so.

E.G. in ROI the Border Counties (Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Monaghan, Sligo), Western counties (Galway, Mayo, Roscommon) and Midland counties (Laois, Longford, Offaly, Westmeath) comprise 12 counties with only 1.14 million inhabitants, spread over half(?) the total area. Meaning the other 14 counties have 3.62 million inhabitants (2016 stats):
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...reland2017/nt/

Indeed Dublin and the Mid East counties of Kildare, Louth, Meath, Wicklow have over 2 m. people i.e. more than all of NI, but in an area approx. half the size of NI i.e. v.heavily urbanised.

Or look at it another way, ROI has 22 towns/cities with a population over 20k, comprising 2.28m people, whereas NI has 13 such towns/cities, comprising 870k (incl. Derry!)

In short, ROI has far more people living in urban areas than NI, no matter how you count it. The fact that it also has a large area to the North/West which is sparsely populated, and where GAA reigns, does not change this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

* - People often think of Australia as having very low population density. Whereas the great bulk (90%?) of its 24m population lives in a relatively small number of towns/cities on the East Coast or Perth/WA, leaving 90% of the country virtually empty. Meaning the Australian population is actually extremely urbanised.

This is also misleading, in two respects.

First, a pyramid is about more than just the top 3 tiers. So if you go down through the Intermediate and Junior tiers, you'll see that they include clubs from every section and area of NI. E.G. the Fermanagh & Western FA operates in a very rural, Nationalist majority area. Yet it still comprises 32 separate clubs in 3 divisions, plus 3 reserve divisions, plus youth, women and girls leagues etc. There is actually more Nationalist participation than Unionist, including GAA players who play both codes; also players from across the border.
Or, if you take eg schools competitions, the MacRory Cup is the premier GAA schools competition in Ulster. In 2022 it had 16 entrants, two of them from ROI and all Catholic Maintained Grammars. Similarly, the Ulster Rugby Schools Cup had 20 entrants, all Controlled (i.e. Protestant or Mixed) schools, very predominantly Grammar. Whereas the football equivlent, NISFA Schools Cup, each year has over 120 entrants, from all over NI, city and country, and including Controlled, Maintained, Integrated, Grammar, Comprehensive and even Gaelic language!

The second respect is that football is not just defined by the crowds* that the Senior clubs attract. It also includes players, managers, referees, administrators and volunteers, also sponsors and advertisers etc

Just look at the team sheets from this match between Institute, the "other" team in Derry (originally called the Presbyterian Institute, and currently playing in the Brandywell), and Ballinamallard, a small Protestant village in otherwise Nationalist majority Fermanagh:
Institute: John Connolly, Jay Riley, Shaun Leppard, Rhys McDermott, Conor Quigley; Aidan McCauley, Mark McFadden, Liam Walsh (Cormac Burke 80); Ian Parkhill, Caolan McLaughlin (Gareth Brown 36), Brendan McLaughlin.
Ballinamallard United: Rory Brown, Dean Curry, Mark Stafford, Richard Clarke (Ronan McKinley 84), Aaron Arkinson, Evan Tweed (Christopher Kelly 31), BJ Banda, Joshua McIlwaine, Darragh Byrne, Reece Byrne (Callum Moorehead 84), Sean McEvoy (Patrick Ferry HT).
Referee: Mr Shane McGonigle
Obviously you can't always go by names, bit it is clear that the big majority of those are from the Nationalist community, incl. a number who are from ROI!

Or take Managers: Coleraine and Larne, for example, are both strongly Unionist towns, but are managed by Oran Kearney and Tiernan Lynch. While the NI Football League's Chief Executive, their first ever, is Gerard Lawlor (ex Cliftonville), while Linfield's General Manager is Dubliner Pat Fenlon.

But in any case, even if you were correct - and you're not - in characterising Football in NI as being a Unionist/Prod sport, pretty much only played in urban areas, then you might conclude that the real "football population" of NI is barely 1 million i.e. 20% of that of ROI, rather than 40%. Yet we can still maintain a healthy pyramid, making it even less explicable why ROI cannot.

* - Note, too, that 20% of admission prices in NI are lost to VAT, unlike in ROI. Were NI clubs able to keep that, they could reduce prices to attract more fans and/or invest it in better facilities etc.

OK, I'll happily accept "pushed out" or whatever term you prefer, since it doesn't change my point. Which was that DCFC's permanent switch to the LOI was a huge loss to NI football, but we've withstood it. Whereas Cork being relegated to the First Division for a period is nothing like eg their leaving the LOI to play in another country entirely.

Let's overlook for the moment the fact that Larne are currently 8 points clear at the top of the table with half the season played, the whole point of the pyramid is that it has successfully encouraged and facilitated new clubs from new areas of NI which never had Intermediate, never mind Senior, clubs before, while providing healthy competition via Promotion & Relegation, as individual clubs progressed or declined. Consequently the "attrition" rate of NI clubs going bust, before having to reform, or even disappearing entirely, is rather less than that in ROI.

P.S. I don't say any of that in order to "big up" the IL, never mind "do down" the LOI - the LOI has also many strengths from which the IL could learn. But the example of the IFA/IL in introducing, expanding and upgrading the pyramid over 20-odd years has undoubtedly been of great benefit in raising standards in the game in NI. And imo, were the FAI/LOI to do the same, it should prove equally beneficial south of the border.

I have glanced over most of these posts and before you shoot me down here is my tuppence worth.
A friend of mine who had a promenent role in the IFA once told me "it's run by protestants for protestants" and my friend was a... guess what? A protestant. In more recent years I will admit this has changed and improved.
Regarding Or�n, Tiernan and Pat Fenlon. The top clubs are paying big money have to employ the best man for the job, including players and can't be seen to descriminate as they are in the spotlight. However drop to intermediate level and there are clubs who will not sign players from another religion. I will admit sometimes it's due to the location of the club and players of one religion won't feel comfortable in entering an area of another religion, but there are clubs who categorically will not sign players of another religion.
Piramed system can be exploited and doesn't always improve standards. That's why 4 clubs from Belfast (all within 3 radial miles from each other) with grounds meeting the NIFL spec are playing in the Ballymena and Provincial league. They see it as an easy way to the playoffs if they win the league provided they have declared their intention to be promoted.
The standard!! Up to very recently the Intermediate League which Strabane played in had 7 teams and they were not 7 good teams. Imagine playing in the league Cup, think about it!! A member of one of the 4 Belfast clubs above told me they would apply to this league as an easy way to promotion but travelling costs would be too high.
To introduce the piramed system in ROI would need to be carefully thought out to make sure all leagues have let's say 14 teams minimum, a club must play in their closest league demographicly and I sure there would be other requirements I haven't mentioned.
Fire away boys!!
14/12/2022, 8:58 AM
Kiki Balboa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkicker

I have glanced over most of these posts and before you shoot me down here is my tuppence worth.
A friend of mine who had a promenent role in the IFA once told me "it's run by protestants for protestants" and my friend was a... guess what? A protestant. In more recent years I will admit this has changed and improved.

Would the IFA atill object to Northern Irish based teams joining the LOI (ala if Derry City happened in 2022)?

For example this: https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/...-move-16121869

I remember to rumours of the new Newry City exploring options to join LOI when their previous entity went bust.
14/12/2022, 10:47 AM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

You acknowledge that it's very difficult - and then launch into a lecture that has absolutely nothing to do with how the task will be achieved. So I'll ask yet again - in the real world of how the FAI is currently structured and operates, please can you clarify how a pyramid system will be achieved ?

Again, I don't have to outline how it's to be achieved to be of the view that it's the best option with bigger-picture benefits for the game here, and better than the current plan of hoping to magic up clubs to jump into the third tier of a structure that has demonstrably failed (most recently and obviously by the fact that, in the year it's due to be launched, no-one has signed up). And I don't have to outline how it's to be achieved to suggest that the criticisms of a pyramid expressed here (Some people watch rugby, Salthill/Mervue might get promoted, the German fourth tier has problems apportioning TV rights and has big crowd differentials) don't stack up.

Because that's the only point I'm making. And your comment that "It's hard to achieve that" doesn't negate that point.

Could you get an external consultant in to advise it as per your post? (Another EYG speciality post focussing as much on personal abuse than the actual point, sadly; you really need to work on that) Maybe you could - but you've still got to get the FAI, to accept the document and work with it of course. Either way, it's a long way removed from your initial comment that "This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement. They should make more money available to Irish football - but only in return for a restructuring to align the whole system." And still not relevant to the basic point that a pyramid is the best system in general.
14/12/2022, 11:34 AM
EatYerGreens

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Again, I don't have to outline how it's to be achieved to be of the view that it's the best option with bigger-picture benefits for the game here, and better than the current plan of hoping to magic up clubs to jump into the third tier of a structure that has demonstrably failed (most recently and obviously by the fact that, in the year it's due to be launched, no-one has signed up). And I don't have to outline how it's to be achieved to suggest that the criticisms of a pyramid expressed here (Some people watch rugby, Salthill/Mervue might get promoted, the German fourth tier has problems apportioning TV rights and has big crowd differentials) don't stack up.

Because that's the only point I'm making. And your comment that "It's hard to achieve that" doesn't negate that point.

Could you get an external consultant in to advise it as per your post? (Another EYG speciality post focussing as much on personal abuse than the actual point, sadly; you really need to work on that) Maybe you could - but you've still got to get the FAI, to accept the document and work with it of course. Either way, it's a long way removed from your initial comment that "This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement. They should make more money available to Irish football - but only in return for a restructuring to align the whole system." And still not relevant to the basic point that a pyramid is the best system in general.

It would be ideal for Irish football if the international team won the World Cup. We therefore must win it. I acknowledge that it would be difficult to win, but that doesn't negate my point that it would be the ideal situation and in the best interests of the game here if we did win it. Therefore I don't care how unrealistic this demand is - we must win the World Cup.

Demanding that everyone do something difficult whilst refusing to engage with how that difficult thing could even be achieved is just barking at the moon stuff. The equivalent of the fans at every club who give their manager and players dog's abuse for not being significantly better than everyone else can clearlty see they actually are. Pure fantasy football stuff from you here Stu.
14/12/2022, 11:44 AM
pineapple stu

A comparison which would only be relevant if every other country in Europe was also winning the World Cup about now.

But I think you know that.
14/12/2022, 11:48 AM
EatYerGreens

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

A comparison which would only be relevant if every other country in Europe was also winning the World Cup about now.

But I think you know that.

Tell us how your grand plan is going to be achieved Stu? Tell us all how.
14/12/2022, 12:36 PM
pineapple stu

I'm not sure how many times I've explained why I don't need to explain that to still form the view that a proper pyramid would be preferable to what we have now? But you just keep repeating the question, so it seems you're just on a wind-up now

So if no other sensible questions, I'll just move on if that's alright.
14/12/2022, 12:52 PM
culloty82

To make a partial response, if the First Division becomes sufficiently stable that at first Kerry, and later any further clubs who may join, are able to survive and thrive so that we're back to the "old" LoI tally of 22, that will in turn encourage other teams to make applications, so that a third tier would become possible from the top down. The problem, as mentioned before, will be connecting that to intermediate and junior calendars, but that is rather putting the cart before the horse.
14/12/2022, 1:09 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkicker

I have glanced over most of these posts and before you shoot me down here is my tuppence worth.
A friend of mine who had a promenent role in the IFA once told me "it's run by protestants for protestants" and my friend was a... guess what? A protestant. In more recent years I will admit this has changed and improved.

Wouldn't argue with the first part, but the second part is key.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkicker

Regarding Or�n, Tiernan and Pat Fenlon. The top clubs are paying big money have to employ the best man for the job, including players and can't be seen to descriminate as they are in the spotlight

Pyramids go down as well as up and ideas and developments with them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkicker

However drop to intermediate level and there are clubs who will not sign players from another religion. I will admit sometimes it's due to the location of the club and players of one religion won't feel comfortable in entering an area of another religion, but there are clubs who categorically will not sign players of another religion.

It is inevitable in a society like NI that there will be Prod teams in Prod areas and RC teams in RC areas, but I would make two points. First, these teams regularly play each other in their leagues, without any great problem - there are many other areas of life in NI where the two communities virtually never meet. Second, there are also mixed teams, with the situation gradually, if slowly, improving. (Compare that with eg GAA, which is pretty much exclusive to one community).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkicker

Piramed system can be exploited and doesn't always improve standards. That's why 4 clubs from Belfast (all within 3 radial miles from each other) with grounds meeting the NIFL spec are playing in the Ballymena and Provincial league. They see it as an easy way to the playoffs if they win the league provided they have declared their intention to be promoted.
The standard!! Up to very recently the Intermediate League which Strabane played in had 7 teams and they were not 7 good teams. Imagine playing in the league Cup, think about it!! A member of one of the 4 Belfast clubs above told me they would apply to this league as an easy way to promotion but travelling costs would be too high.

No system is ever perfect. But re those Belfast clubs gaming the system (and I know who you mean), eventually that should work itself out if/when those clubs do get the promotion they're angling for, while the pyramid system has also encouraged them to get their grounds up to spec. (Besides which from the religious side of things, those Belfast clubs playing in Ballymena district? That would never have happened a generation or two ago!)

As for the patchy standards, yeah, that is a problem, particularly in certain areas like NW Tyrone/South Derry etc, but just nip over the border from Strabane and see how eg the Ulster Senior League is doing! Meaning that in ROI you will also get areas where football is very strong and regional leagues will thrive, while in other areas the game is weak and regional leagues will struggle. But in the end, "a rising tide floats all boats".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinkicker

To introduce the piramed system in ROI would need to be carefully thought out to make sure all leagues have let's say 14 teams minimum, a club must play in their closest league demographicly and I sure there would be other requirements I haven't mentioned.

I'm sure you would agree that notwithstanding the (valid) criticisms which you make about the NI pyramid above, it has still been a very good thing overall for the game in NI, and so should do the same for the game in ROI.

And whatever the other obstacles which the FAI would face in introducing their own pyramid, at least a religious divide wouldn't be one of them!
14/12/2022, 1:28 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

A comparison which would only be relevant if every other country in Europe was also winning the World Cup about now.

Or if 40 or 45 European teams didn't even bother entering the World Cup, on the basis that they aren't ever going to win it.

Anyhow, I was reminded of a JFK* quotation the other day: "We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard"

* - Or am I thinking of Mayor Diamond Joe Quimby?
14/12/2022, 1:34 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

Would the IFA atill object to Northern Irish based teams joining the LOI (ala if Derry City happened in 2022)?

For example this: https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/...-move-16121869

I remember to rumours of the new Newry City exploring options to join LOI when their previous entity went bust.

No offence KB, but even the briefest possible summary of all the reasons why that will not happen, cannot happen, indeed would not be allowed to happen (FIFA), would risk breaking the internet.

In fact building a pyramid in ROI would be a piece of p1ss by comparison.
14/12/2022, 2:47 PM
legendz

I'm not so sure about expanding the LoI to 22 if the intention is to form a third tier. If the CK United article from yesterday is accurate, it seems the next step is to add the third tier. A third tier being two steps out of the limelight can have a variable number of teams from year to year and an appropriate number of games per season.
After that, district leagues to provincial leagues would have to be sorted out before considering a link to the third tier. There should still be a place for non LoI entities to build up through the youth leagues. After Kerry have travelled that path, it should be kept open for current non LoI areas.
14/12/2022, 3:07 PM
EatYerGreens

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'm not sure how many times I've explained why I don't need to explain that to still form the view that a proper pyramid would be preferable to what we have now? But you just keep repeating the question, so it seems you're just on a wind-up now

So if no other sensible questions, I'll just move on if that's alright.

You've spent forever on here hectoring everyone that there is no reason why Ireland can't have a pyramid. That it isn't exceptional. That everywhere else has one, so no reason why we can't either.

Then when it's ponted out to you that actually Ireland IS exceptional - in terms of the structural and organisational barriers it faces which block things like a pyramid, and which therefore necessitate particular solutions - you say you don't care, and there must be a pyramid anyway. And you rubbish anyone else's proposals for how those barriers could be circumnavigated, whilst point-blank refusing to say how else it could be done.

Corporate dysfunction in football governance is surely not unique to Ireland. But I don't recal any other FA across Europe facing the same level of dysfunction that the FAI has in recent years (?). And Ireland's structures and dysfunctionality are at least a part contributor to the fact we don't and can't have a pyramid when everyone else does - particularly when a league here has taken advantage of that dysfunctionality to reverse a fundamental building block towards a pyramid here (i.e. by undoing an alignment of seasons).

So do you now finally accept that there ARE reasons which make Ireland diferent to everywhere else when it comes to implementing a pyramid ? The obvious one being that the current structures won't vote one through ?
14/12/2022, 4:11 PM
pineapple stu

Still guff EYG.

None of that argues against my point that a pyramid is a better system than magicking clubs out of thin air, and that the counter points (including your own quietly-dropped one that people watch rugby) don't stack up.

Yes, it's hard. Stupidly hard, given how simple a concept it is. And I've said that from the off. That's not an argument against it though, much and all as you seem to like to think it is.
14/12/2022, 4:52 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

You've spent forever on here hectoring everyone that there is no reason why Ireland can't have a pyramid.

There are many reasons why ROI cannot have a pyramid. It's just that none of them is a good one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

That it isn't exceptional.

Maybe not uniquely so, but pretty exceptional in that many of the recent moves the FAI has made have actually driven it further away from a possible pyramid, not closer eg Summer/Winter split; the "A" League, allowing "francjhise" clubs etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Corporate dysfunction in football governance is surely not unique to Ireland. But I don't recal any other FA across Europe facing the same level of dysfunction that the FAI has in recent years (?).

"Please Miss, me Miss, I think I know that one!"

Thirty years ago, the IFA was in an even worse position than the FAI. That is, we had just the same small-minded, petty politics (small "p"), vested interests and personality clashes which have long infexted the FAI. And if we didnt always have quite such a ganch as Delaney in charge (emphasise the "quite"), neither has the FAI had to operate in a society which was riven from top to bottom by decades of severe sectarian strife, with a completely paralysed political system (large "p"), all in a place with a much smaller and less affluent population.

Nor did we have more recent success for the NT on the field, or even a decent stadium to attract large crowds and generate the revenue which the AVIVA does. (On the contrary, our team was sh1t and we were tied into Windsor under a contract which the Mafia would have been proud to negotiate)

Yet somehow or other, we have managed to turn that sh1t-show round, even if modestly and imperfectly, in terms of developing our own pyramid. Like everyome else has..

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

So do you now finally accept that there ARE reasons which make Ireland diferent to everywhere else when it comes to implementing a pyramid ? The obvious one being that the current structures won't vote one through ?

Sorry to be repetitive, or appear "superior", but the IFA sturcture was very similar to that of the FAI, and equally reactionary. Yet somehow or other, including with the assistance of our funders at the Sports Council/Stormont etc, we managed to get the structure reformed to something a bit more fit-for-purpose.
14/12/2022, 5:01 PM
Shinkicker

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Wouldn't argue with the first part, but the second part is key.

Pyramids go down as well as up and ideas and developments with them.

It is inevitable in a society like NI that there will be Prod teams in Prod areas and RC teams in RC areas, but I would make two points. First, these teams regularly play each other in their leagues, without any great problem - there are many other areas of life in NI where the two communities virtually never meet. Second, there are also mixed teams, with the situation gradually, if slowly, improving. (Compare that with eg GAA, which is pretty much exclusive to one community).

No system is ever perfect. But re those Belfast clubs gaming the system (and I know who you mean), eventually that should work itself out if/when those clubs do get the promotion they're angling for, while the pyramid system has also encouraged them to get their grounds up to spec. (Besides which from the religious side of things, those Belfast clubs playing in Ballymena district? That would never have happened a generation or two ago!)

As for the patchy standards, yeah, that is a problem, particularly in certain areas like NW Tyrone/South Derry etc, but just nip over the border from Strabane and see how eg the Ulster Senior League is doing! Meaning that in ROI you will also get areas where football is very strong and regional leagues will thrive, while in other areas the game is weak and regional leagues will struggle. But in the end, "a rising tide floats all boats".

I'm sure you would agree that notwithstanding the (valid) criticisms which you make about the NI pyramid above, it has still been a very good thing overall for the game in NI, and so should do the same for the game in ROI.

And whatever the other obstacles which the FAI would face in introducing their own pyramid, at least a religious divide wouldn't be one of them!

Please believe me when I say I am not criticising anything about the system in NI, I played in it for years and loved it. I am only pointing out what I saw over the years. What I am really saying is that it won't be a silver bullet for the ROI. (pardon the pun).
However, I would say the standard of LOI top division is better than the IL top division.
14/12/2022, 6:40 PM
EatYerGreens

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Still guff EYG.

None of that argues against my point that a pyramid is a better system than magicking clubs out of thin air, and that the counter points (including your own quietly-dropped one that people watch rugby) don't stack up.

I've not argued against a pyramid, and I agree that it makes sense conceptually. What I've doen is point out the many difficulties with it in Ireland. Because I live in the real world, which means I understand that you can't just daydream this stuff into existence in the face of cold, hard reality. You're welcome to join me there some time :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yes, it's hard. Stupidly hard, given how simple a concept it is. And I've said that from the off. That's not an argument against it though, much and all as you seem to like to think it is.

I guess this is as close as we'll get to an admisison from you that your constant claim there is no exceptionalism behind why Ireland doesn't have a pyramid is in fact wrong in the clear daylight of reality. We should probably be grateful to take what we can in this re a 'blood from stone' analogy. Small mercies and all that.
14/12/2022, 7:34 PM
sbgawa

Getting a pyramid going in ireland is simple and could be achieved overnight by the FAI.
The Fai draw up the new leagues and structures and tell the leagues and the clubs to fall in line or their leagues will be excluded from FAI , players not eligible for representative teams etc etc etc. The local blazers will be upset but so be it. It will NEVER happen without leadership from FAI.
14/12/2022, 7:38 PM
David BOHie

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbgawa

Getting a pyramid going in ireland is simple and could be achieved overnight by the FAI.
The Fai draw up the new leagues and structures and tell the leagues and the clubs to fall in line or their leagues will be excluded from FAI , players not eligible for representative teams etc etc etc. The local blazers will be upset but so be it. It will NEVER happen without leadership from FAI.

And then they all join the AUL or some other breakaway league that plays winter football. What you end up with is a three tier LOI and an even more fragmented sport in this country.

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