Everton and Liverpool discussion

I don't know whether Rafa wanted to sell Owen or Owen wanted to leave. Equally I am not sure he really doesn't want him back or if this is just spin to try to get the best deal from Real.

Either way IMO it will be a good move to sign him or take him back on loan.

Both Baros and Cisse were Houllier's signings so it is no bad reflcetion on Rafa if he wants to sell them. I won't lose any sleep over Baros leaving. He has failed to live up to expectations and hasn't scored enough goals to justify keeping him. I am not all that impressed with Cisse either. I know he had an horrendous season last year due to injury but any time I have seen him he has lacked a half decent first touch and seems to rely on putting the head down,running with the ball and shooting regardless of whether anyone else is in a better position.

Owen is head and shouldres above both of them. Owen was sold for £8m plus Nunez and the reports I read say that Real are now looking for £10M. Does anyone know if Celta Vigo paid a fee for Nunez. Managers make mistakes in tehe transfer market all the time. If Rafa did make one by wanting to sell Owen I will not have a problem if he effectively admits this by taking him back.

youre all wrong. Owen decide to leave Anfield in february and was in talks with madrid. Deal was done long before Rafa arrived....Rafa had no choice in wheter owen stayed or not

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Originally Posted by mypost

Baros has been here for nearly 5 years, Morientes for only 8 months, sometimes unavailable due to injury/ineligibility. Of course he's barely moved a limb. The bloke was unfit when he signed, and is still adapting to English football. Baros had similiar problems when he signed. Give Mori a chance before you rush to judgement, will ye? :rolleyes:

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Don't know about you, but it doesn't take me 12 months to decide if a player is doing the business or not. He is not suited to the English game. He is off the pace. First he was "unfit", now he is "adapting" to the premiership. I can see him doing very well for us in the CL as the pace of it suits him perfectly - slower, more time on the ball. Morientes strong point is his link play, his ability to give and go, and his heading. He needs to toughen up, get more aggressive and generally be more lively. If he hasn't realised this by now he might as well forget about it. Benitez has been making noises at him so he needs to buck up. My fear is that he won't and we'll end up using Crouch too much, the major fear being long ball.I still have confidence in Morientes, as I believe the service to him hasn't been that great so far, but equally I wouldn't be surprised if he was sold.

Benitez in the press conference today said the priority is a centre back. No mention of a right-midfielder which is bad news, as we badly need one. Cisse just won't do there. I believe we will sign Owen right at the death, it's a game of chess at the moment to get the price down.

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

Don't know about you, but it doesn't take me 12 months to decide if a player is doing the business or not. He is not suited to the English game. He is off the pace. First he was "unfit", now he is "adapting" to the premiership. I can see him doing very well for us in the CL as the pace of it suits him perfectly - slower, more time on the ball. Morientes needs to toughen up, get more aggressive and generally be more lively.

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I take it, that you've never learned the meaning of the word, "patience", have you?? :rolleyes:

Baros took 2 years to adapt to English football, played well for about a season, then sulked after he was left out of the League Cup Final, and has nosedived since. Morientes couldn't do much when he first came here only 7 months ago. Since then, he has been unfit, injured, ineligible for CL participation, and gone on a 2 month summer break. It takes some foreign players ages to adapt to a new lifestyle, new country, and a football style that was hitherto alien to him, and I don't feel he has had enough time so far to show us what he can do. He has scored 2 goals already this season, and you want him sold? How can we have a settled team/squad, if we listen to attitudes like that. ("Right, you're a striker for us, we know you're unfit/ineligible/injured, but you must suddenly score 20+ goals in 10 games now, or you'll have to fk off!!"). :eek: :mad: He'll get his fair share of goals over time...as long as give him 5 minutes!! :rolleyes:

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I still have confidence in Morientes, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was sold.

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Contradiction!

In any case, even Benitez wouldn't be that daft to consider selling him at the moment. He's here for the foreseeable future.

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I believe we will sign Owen right at the death, it's a game of chess at the moment to get the price down.

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There's no way the price will come down. If he really wanted Owen to stay last season, he would have snapped him up from Real at the first opportunity. The fact that he hasn't, tells it's own story. :(


On the plus side, we won comfortably against Sunderland, but the team's performance was very poor. The passing was terrible throughout the game, Cisse missed 3 sitters, and if we play like that when Ushi-ted come calling in 4 weeks time, we'll lose to them at home yet again.

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Originally Posted by mypost

I take it, that you've never learned the meaning of the word, "patience", have you??

Baros took 2 years to adapt to English football, played well for about a season, then sulked after he was left out of the League Cup Final, and has nosedived since. Morientes couldn't do much when he first came here only 7 months ago. Since then, he has been unfit, injured, ineligible for CL participation, and gone on a 2 month summer break. It takes some foreign players ages to adapt to a new lifestyle, new country, and a football style that was hitherto alien to him, and I don't feel he has had enough time so far to show us what he can do. He has scored 2 goals already this season, and you want him sold? How can we have a settled team/squad, if we listen to attitudes like that. ("Right, you're a striker for us, we know you're unfit/ineligible/injured, but you must suddenly score 20+ goals in 10 games now, or you'll have to fk off!!"). He'll get his fair share of goals over time...as long as give him 5 minutes!! :rolleyes:



Contradiction!

In any case, even Benitez wouldn't be that daft to consider selling him at the moment. He's here for the foreseeable future.



There's no way the price will come down. If he really wanted Owen to stay last season, he would have snapped him up from Real at the first opportunity. The fact that he hasn't, tells it's own story. :(


On the plus side, we won comfortably against Sunderland, but the team's performance was very poor. The passing was terrible throughout the game, Cisse missed 3 sitters, and if we play like that when Ushi-ted come calling in 4 weeks time, we'll lose to them at home yet again.

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Well you seem to know it all so I'll take everything you say as gospel. Must be all those games you've gone to over the years :rolleyes:

Comparing him to Baros is ridiculous as Baros was signed as a raw youngster who had to spend the first 8 months getting fit and losing weight, before he even got near the subs bench. Morientes was bought as an experienced international striker, who simply isn't producing - another inept performance on Saturday. It's not just goals, which is what you seem to be basing your opinion on. It's his all round play and lack of presence and general effort up front that is the problem. He doesn't fight for the ball and gets easily knocked off of it. The lack of goals justs compounds things. He should know by now what is required, so he should be getting stuck in more. Instead he seems dead in himself, and there's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise because the facts and stats are there in black and white.

This 'adapting to the premiership' stuff is a load of rubbish. It's a lame excuse to mask mediocre performances. I don't recall Garcia and Alonso having problems adapting to the English game, and Garcia is way lighter than him. No problems either for Walter Pandiani at Birmingham.......strange. He's had from January until May last season, and a full pre-season behind him this season. Two goals yes, but both in CL (and if you read my post properly you'll see that I've said I can see him scoring goals in the CL). In the Premiership he is not producing, simple as that, which is why Crouch was bought. He's in trouble when Crouch is fit again. And at least Cisse is getting into positions to miss chances....

I hope Morientes scores a hat-trick in his next premiership game because I would love to see the Morientes of Monaco at Liverpool. Unfortunately at the moment we are seeing the Morientes of Real Madrid B.

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

Morientes - another inept performance on Saturday.

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He wasn't the only one. There were several others.

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It's not just goals, which is what you seem to be basing your opinion on. It's his all round play and lack of presence and general effort up front that is the problem. He doesn't fight for the ball and gets easily knocked off of it. The lack of goals justs compounds things.

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Strikers are bought to score goals, not defend, run the midfield, play pretty football, but score goals. And overall, he scores his fair share of goals. That's what he will be judged on. What do you want? Emile Heskey?? Plenty of effort, but not enough goals, so off he went.

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This 'adapting to the premiership' stuff is a load of rubbish. It's a lame excuse to mask mediocre performances. I don't recall Garcia having problems adapting to the English game, and Garcia is way lighter than him.

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Garcia admitted himself, that he struggled with the English style of football, and game last winter, when the pitches got worse. Josemi, Nunez, and Pellegrino, all brought from Spain, all failed to adapt. Still rubbish?? :rolleyes:

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He's had from January until May last season, and a full pre-season behind him this season.

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And like I said before, he has been injured/ineligible/unfit for most of that time. The team have only scored one league goal so far this season, it won't be long before Mori scores himself.

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Originally Posted by mypost

And overall, he scores his fair share of goals. That's what he will be judged on. What do you want? Emile Heskey?? Plenty of effort, but not enough goals, so off he went.

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Where are these goals? Goals in behind-closed-door friendlies don't count....

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Originally Posted by mypost

Garcia admitted himself, that he struggled with the English style of football, and game last winter, when the pitches got worse. Josemi, Nunez, and Pellegrino, all brought from Spain, all failed to adapt. Still rubbish?? :rolleyes:

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Garcia may have struggled in general play, but he still scored goals and did the business. Josemi, Nunez and Pellegrino are rubbish so what's the point comparing them with Morientes? Nunez and Pellegrino were never long term signings, they were signed to get us through last season because we couldn't afford more expensive players. Pellegrino was only on a 6 month contract. Nunez on a short term deal, who was signed on a free anyway. Josemi is simply a squad player, nothing more. That comparison is worse than your Baros/Morientes one above!

A player should be judged on hard facts, stats and what he has actually done, not what he can/could do, or what he has done at previous clubs in other leagues. That is why both Cisse and Morientes could be sold just as easily as Baros was - because they are not delivering. Benitez is on about Kuyt again, a player similar in build to Crouch. Owen is also being mentioned. He is thinking about other strikers, which really tells you all you need to know about how happy he is with his current lot.......

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

Where are these goals?

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The same place where Cisse's, Crouch's, and Garcia's are. Morientes has scored more than all of them so far this season, but obviously it hasn't satisfy some people. :rolleyes:

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Josemi, Nunez and Pellegrino are rubbish so what's the point comparing them with Morientes?

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Spaniards attempting to adapt to the Premiership.

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That comparison is worse than your Baros/Morientes one above!

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I am not making comparisons between the two. I merely analysed their records at the club, following your comparison of their records in a recent post.

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Benitez is on about Kuyt again, a player similar in build to Crouch. Owen is also being mentioned. He is thinking about other strikers

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Beni wants players in other positions. He says he has enough in 5 strikers. Or does he? He said the same this time last year, when we had 4 strikers available. 2 months later, we had only 1 striker available. He doesn't want Owen, and never did since he came to the club. He didn't want him then, and he doesn't want him now. On the evidence of the last 3 games, it's clear we do need him. If Benitez saw the light, swallowed his pride, and took him on board, we might just finish higher than 5th. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

The same place where Cisse's, Crouch's, and Garcia's are. Morientes has scored more than all of them so far this season, but obviously it hasn't satisfy some people. :rolleyes:

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Oh so now we're only talking about this season, just to suit your weak argument. I have been talking about Morientes since the day he arrived. Again, read my post properly. BTW, Crouch has played 1 game, Garcia only a couple (he didn't feature in any of the earlier CL rounds, unlike Morientes, and only came on as a sub in both legs of the last round). And for your information, Cisse has double the goals Morientes has this season. What Liverpool are you watching? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

Spaniards attempting to adapt to the Premiership.

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Squad players, but lets just pretend there's no difference.....

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Originally Posted by mypost

He doesn't want Owen, and never did since he came to the club. He didn't want him then, and he doesn't want him now. On the evidence of the last 3 games, it's clear we do need him. If Benitez saw the light, swallowed his pride, and took him on board, we might just finish higher than 5th.

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Why do you think he doesn't want Owen? Have you any idea or any real knowledge at all of what Benitez did at Valencia? It's nothing personal. It's as simple as this. The type of player that Owen is does not suit the system that Benitez ultimately wants to play. If you look at his team, personnel and tactics at Valencia, you would understand this. Cisse is the same, Benitez has no real use for him. He favours a target man, with his wide men coming in to support - similar to what Chelsea use. Owen does not fit into this style. If Benitez had his way, his three strikers would be Crouch, Morientes and Kuyt. And from then on, he'd be spending his money on quality wide men. That you can't see what he is trying to build at the moment means you must be blind to tactics.

-----------------------Reina------------------------

Finnan--------Carragher------Hyypia---------Warnock

-----------------------Sissoko/Hamann---------------
---------------Alonso--------------------------------

Stelios??--------------Gerrard---------------Riise/Zenden

-------------------Crouch/Morientes------------------


That is what Benitez is striving to create. Obviously Stelios would be a stop gap signing (just like Nunez and Pellegrino were ;) ). Rafa would be hoping to spend his cash on the likes of Jaoquin in that position in the next few years. Now, where does Michael Owen go, on the bench? Or are you going to tell me he can play as a target man? I'd love Owen at the club, but he is going to be an expensive sub because Benitez aint going to change his tried and tested system, and philosophy, just for Michael Owen :rolleyes: Even if we do sign him, he will not start every week, especially away from home. Benitez isn't prepared to pay more than £8m, and he's dead right, because it would be for a player that he would regard as a luxury. It wouldn't surprise me if he signed, but equally don't be surprised if it's Kuyt and not Owen.

BTW: Morientes was shocking again last night, and even the analysts on TV3 and Sky Sports highlighted how off the pace he appeared. Did you see how easily he lost possession, was knocked off the ball, and how poor his passing was? That's my point, we are seeing the Morientes of Real Madrid B. Yes the whole team was poor, but Morientes was absolutly terrible.

Everton out, more money for the reds...... :D

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Originally Posted by anto1208

and liverpool finished off boro nicely ............... oh no wait they stumbled and stalled in the prem yet again !!

but hey look at the league table it the first time liverpool have been above everton in 11 months !! :D :D

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In case you misunderstood me, I'm not a Liverpool fan so that doesn't bother me,:p.

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

Everton out, more money for the reds...... :D

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Losing to CSKA Sofia, oh ya ye really deserve more money :rolleyes: :D

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Originally Posted by sligoman

Losing to CSKA Sofia, oh ya ye really deserve more money :rolleyes: :D

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If CSKA Sofia had been a bit more like that in the First Leg they would have gone through!

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

If CSKA Sofia had been a bit more like that in the First Leg they would have gone through!

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If Liverpool had to win the match on Tuesday they would have played their strongest team from the start and I believe won the match comfortably.

Hard luck to Everton last night. Ferguson had a perfectly good goal disallowed with 10/15 minutes to go. They played very well in the second half and 2-1 to Everton would have been a fairer result over 90 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Dotsy

If Liverpool had to win the match on Tuesday they would have played their strongest team from the start and I believe won the match comfortably.

Hard luck to Everton last night. Ferguson had a perfectly good goal disallowed with 10/15 minutes to go. They played very well in the second half and 2-1 to Everton would have been a fairer result over 90 minutes.

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Yeah it was hard luck for Everton but they lost the game in the first leg. Should never had let 2 goals in at home. Maybe in hindsight it will be better for them to be playing UEFA and not Champs. League with the size of their squad. ;)

Tough sh!te Everton.

Im absolutely made up for them, especially that scumbag Duncan Disorderly, that 'goal' being disallowed was a masterstroke by Collina.

They deserved it, they are just a pack of one trick ponies, long ball specialists - reminds me so much of Sh€l$.

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Originally Posted by ciaran76

Yeah it was hard luck for Everton but they lost the game in the first leg. Should never had let 2 goals in at home. Maybe in hindsight it will be better for them to be playing UEFA and not Champs. League with the size of their squad. ;)

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robbed ,i dont think i could watch too much europeen footy what a bunch of girls , you cant tip of them with out giving away a free , but then for some reason when they hold you back in the box its a free out !! ill never understand that decision , also ozzy geting caught in a head lock why no penalty if the ref is that strict .

looking at the possitive bar a terrible ref we should have won 2-1 which is not bad against the 3rd best team in spain on out first outing into europe

still there is allways next year , allthough i think spurs could push us all the way for 4th they have a good squad put together , there isnt really anyone else th at will trouble us

It was tough on Everton alright but do you think Moyes has taken the team as far as he can?,maybe Martin O'Neill could have a job there next Summer with Moyes moving up to Celtic. :confused:

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Originally Posted by anto1208

still there is allways next year , allthough i think spurs could push us all the way for 4th they have a good squad put together , there isnt really anyone else th at will trouble us

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:D :D :D I'll tell you what Anto, if Everton finish 4th again this year (or higher) I'll give you £100 and that's straight up. Hand on heart I think Everton will finish around the 7th to 10th mark.

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Originally Posted by Dublin12

It was tough on Everton alright but do you think Moyes has taken the team as far as he can?,maybe Martin O'Neill could have a job there next Summer with Moyes moving up to Celtic. :confused:

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no way moyes has his 5 year plan to get everton back in with the big boys , half way through and its looking good , he is going for better players now aswell but at the start we were looking at 1 mill pound players like kilbane , and loan deals but now we are bringing in players worth around the 5 mill mark , per 5 mill beattie 7 mill davies 4 mill neville 3.5 ferrari ( will cost 4 mill next summer), we have spent 20 mill since xmas and we are still making offers of 10 mill for players like kuyt and owen looking for that 20 goal striker .

moyes will see out his contract then take over utd if he hasnt made everton just as big ( football wise not selling pencil cases to chinese kids wise) but thats not for years yet