Kazakhstan V Republic of Ireland - Friday, 7th September 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

What really annoys me is when people say we can't have a team that tries to keep the ball on the floor because we have limited players. What a load of nonsense. Professional footballers are able to pass a ball. To give an example local to me...Nottingham Forest were a direct team last season under Cotterill, long aimless balls to nobody. Sean O'Driscoll is now the manager & has got them playing football. This is Championship level, you don't need to be playing in the PL or La Liga to have the guts to pass a football.

I see Portugal had to come from a goal down to beat Luxembourg 2-1 away on Friday. Portugal came pretty close to a last-gasp win over Spain in the Euro semi-final.

And Italy drew 2-2 in Bulgaria who have been going backwards over the years.

I'm mellowing a bit about things. I want to believe in Trap being able to get more than he is getting, but I'm finding it hard though.

Just listening to the RTE interview with Eoin Hand & Johnny McDonnell. Hand saying that the FAI were going to let Big Jack go except then Scotland beat Bulgaria, He said it was fact. Was this "known" before?

A lot of people complaining about Tony O'D's interview with Trap after the game. I'm inclined to agree. By all means ask tough questions but I thought the tone was very aggressive.

One think that irks me, and in a way it's contradictory because I'm critical of Trap, is the number of supposed football know-alls out there all saying the same thing. It's almost making me change my mind!

Hand saying Doyle should never have been dropped. I dunno, I think the Bosnia game showed both Walters and Long in a good light. Walters v Doyle was a marginal call Trap was fully entitled to make. From here I'd start Doyle and bring on Walters later though.

Hand also reckons that Duff should have been given a new role by Trap, a central number 10. McDonnell can't believe we're persisting with 2 in midfield.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I see Portugal had to come from a goal down to beat Luxembourg 2-1 away on Friday. Portugal came pretty close to a last-gasp win over Spain in the Euro semi-final.

And Italy drew 2-2 in Bulgaria who have been going backwards over the years.

I'm mellowing a bit about things. I want to believe in Trap being able to get more than he is getting, but I'm finding it hard though.

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Worth a mention that 6th seeded Iceland, hammered first seeds Norway :)
That kinda assumes we're a big team going to a minnow, that scenario no longer applies. There is not the least glimmer that Trap will draw back from this compulsive hoofing obsession.
At this stage our level is no better than 4th place in the group and that's where we are heading for sure. We have the potential to be better than the so called minnows but we are struggle to even achieve that position. It's only a matter of time before we will be embarrassed by a minnow, next up are the Faroes, who (like Kazakhstan) will fancy their chances.

Yep, saw the Iceland result too. Very tasty.

I think you're overrating Austria. Sorry, make that I hope you're overrating Austria.

The nature of soccer means that minnows will always have a chance against the apparent favorites, so in that sense yes there's no such thing as easy international games anymore, but I don't see why we should be gifting these teams with a good chance to turn us over. Sportsmanship only goes so far. I'd forgive the godawful football if it was matched with a ruthlessness to put these kind of teams away, but there's seemingly no concession to who we're playing & how best to take them apart, and that's just common sense, I don't need a FAI contract to see that. One size fits all football, just hoof it with impunity, and hope for the best. If insanity is defined as trying the same thing over & over again, and expecting different results, surely our tactics qualify as genuinely insane.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Hand saying Doyle should never have been dropped. I dunno, I think the Bosnia game showed both Walters and Long in a good light. Walters v Doyle was a marginal call Trap was fully entitled to make. From here I'd start Doyle and bring on Walters later though.

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Yeah, fully agree with that. Doyle's done nothing the past year or two. The sending off against Armenia was the culmination of an awful performance; Walters stepped in and did superbly well. However, Doyle has certainly put himself back in contention for next month's games.

The choice of strikers wasn't an issue for me at all. Sure, I would have preferred Long to start up front but it's not like Walters and Keane are bad strikers. It's the sheer bloody mindedness of the manager on friday that changed me from being a cautious Trap supporter to someone that wants to see him out ASAP. He hasn't learnt at all.

1. The constant hoof ball. Been said many times before but if it's not working, why not change the tactics? First 10-20 mins of hoof, fine. Wait, ok, it's not working, so let's try and control the midfield, stretch their back four and get some crosses in. Or just something, ANYTHING other than hoof and hope.

2. The repeated selection of players who have never or have only rarely impressed in a green shirt. Often these players will be picked out of position and/or seem to be favourites of the manager based on apparently arbitrary criterea. Main examples are Keogh, McShane and Green.

3. Strikers on the wing. This has never worked so why, Trap, why? Keogh, Walters, Cox, Long. These people are not wingers and have never been successful on the wing for Ireland. So why play them ahead of recognised wide men? And if you refuse to put your recognised wingers on even when we're one nil down late on and haven't broken the opposition defence all night, what's the point in taking them half way across the world in the first place? Don't you think they're going to be a tiny bit disheartened by being constantly overlooked for championship level strikers playing poorly out of position?

/rant.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

CD - they are technically better as they've been schooled better than our players.

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They simply are not. They are trained to pass the ball short distances and to break quickly. That does not mean they are technically good. That means they are playing football at a basic level. Doyle and Whelan showed with our two goals that our players can execute technically-precise moves in the dying minutes that our opponents simply couldn't. Whelan's cross for Ward was not simply an aimless hoof - he and McCarthy worked it into position so he could land a perfect cross on Ward's head, and Doyle dispatched it with technical accuracy no Kazakh player could dream of.

Our players are far more technical than they are - the problem is that Trap uses games against minnows as a dress rehearsal for games about the big sides when we'll be backs against the wall. It works against the small sides because, with all due respect, Robbie Keane has more ability in his big toe than the other team do in their entire side, but when we play better sides it means we can barely hang onto the ball. It's counter-productive in the long-term but short-term it is effective.

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The most eye-opening moment for me came 2 years ago in Dublin, watching Ireland panic and collapse against a decent Russian team. Ireland began playing with conviction, had the first chance, and before the match the Russian media and public were hopeful - yes, hopeful - of grabbing a point! Then there was a mistake at the back for Ireland and suddenly the players reverted to type. Skill and ability has been coached out of our players by the British system, it's embarrassing to admit, but it's true.

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I won't argue with the latter point, except that the skill and ability remains - it's the culture and routine that is coached out of them. The comparison to Russia is unfair. Russia could field 10 sides with the number of technically-adept players they have. We don't have that critical mass - they will always produce more technical players than us. They are also helped by the fact their football culture promotes an integrated style of football.

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All the talk always drags back to the EPL and our players there. There was a time, 20-30 years ago, when our players were good enough to play on mainland Europe at the top level. Now, we have Aiden McGeady who sparkles in a different formation in Russia though is probably on the way out. Money and glamour is all important so our players (and their families and agents) won't venture far from home. But it's not their fault.

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Er, our players are good enough to play on mainland Europe. They're just not going to stand out, just like they didn't stand out 20-30 years ago, because they're not particularly good and they weren't then.

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Armenian football is weak but they have been investing in their youth development and their players are playing abroad at good levels. The Kazakhs likewise are investing in youth development (I wasn't sure but was told last night it's a German plan) and gradually seeing results. We (I won't say prostitute) flog our youth off the England and Scotlan for a quick buck and then rely on a poorly constructed home league to pick them up when it doesn't work out. Our players are not comfortable on the ball, regardless of the manager, because they've been trained not to. If we develop our youth structures at home then we might just get back on track.

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Our players would be comfortable on the ball if the national team was coached to be comfortable on the ball. The players not only have the talent, they are far more talented than those in most other countries. Armenia's players aren't technically brilliant, they're just coached the right way.

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Originally Posted by mark12345

And I can say this, with my hand on my heart, that some of the players in the current Ireland team (Ward, O'Shea, O'Dea, Whelan) wouldn't get their place in teams I have played for throughout an amateur career.

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You're right, none of those players would get in the amateur teams you played in. John O'Shea, for instance, wouldn't get in your team because he was too busy playing in a Champions League final. Funny how playing football professionally diminishes your ability to play Sunday league on a Dublin City Council field.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think Dunne is a leader on the pitch. He's got presence.

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Why can't he pass the ball ten yards then?

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

What really annoys me is when people say we can't have a team that tries to keep the ball on the floor because we have limited players. What a load of nonsense. Professional footballers are able to pass a ball. To give an example local to me...Nottingham Forest were a direct team last season under Cotterill, long aimless balls to nobody. Sean O'Driscoll is now the manager & has got them playing football. This is Championship level, you don't need to be playing in the PL or La Liga to have the guts to pass a football.

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Exactly. It will take more time at national level because Sean O'Driscoll has had months compared to Trap's three days a month, but footballers are generally quite adaptable, and with a bit of patience and some personnel changes the whole culture can change on a pin.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

What really annoys me is when people say we can't have a team that tries to keep the ball on the floor because we have limited players. What a load of nonsense. Professional footballers are able to pass a ball. you don't need to be playing in the PL or La Liga to have the guts to pass a football.

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Passing the ball is one thing. Comfortable passing it and holding onto it is another.

When Irish players receive a pass, the head is firmly fixed on the pitch. He doesn't know where his teammate is, who to pass it to, or even how far away from goal he is. Head-down, tunnel vision.

When foreigners receive a pass, they're aware of what's going on around them, they know where their teammate is, and they know when and where the pass has to be made. It's called technical ability. Their players have it as it's drilled into them for years. Our players technical ability consists of "get rid of the fn' thing" asap. And that's a culture that Trap can't change on his own.

It appears that despite the poor performances, few if any of the players are getting stick. It's all Trap, Trap, Trap. That's a cover for the real issues, which would be shown clearly with a different man in charge. We should be at the level Scotland are. The difference is our coach has seen it all and won it all. Theirs coached Raith Rovers and Leicester City.

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Originally Posted by mypost

When Irish players receive a pass, the head is firmly fixed on the pitch. He doesn't know where his teammate is, who to pass it to, or even how far away from goal he is. Head-down, tunnel vision.

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Does this apply to the player that makes the pass?

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Originally Posted by mypost

When Irish players receive a pass, the head is firmly fixed on the pitch. He doesn't know where his teammate is, who to pass it to, or even how far away from goal he is. Head-down, tunnel vision.

When foreigners receive a pass, they're aware of what's going on around them, they know where their teammate is, and they know when and where the pass has to be made. It's called technical ability. Their players have it as it's drilled into them for years.

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So every foreigner is better than any Irish player? Which begs the question why our boys in green, worse than all other foreigners apparently, would even be playing alongside British, Spanish, French, etc etc etc foreigners every weekend in the top two flights of the foreign league next door to us. Why are foreign leagues littered with irishmen instead of Kazakhs? Yes, good man yourself. You can't argue with stupid, they say, but I'll give it a shot...

If this is just the only way we are capable of playing football then what is Trap instructing us to do? Is he telling us to play hoofball or are the players just incapable of following his instructions to play free, open, expressive ball? I'm sorry but you are still blinded by Traps bullsh!t that we don't have players good enough to play football. They are following his instructions to play this way. Once Trap proclaims that his talent pool is garbage, brings in Paul Green instead of Darren Gibson or Wes Hoolahan, and instructs the team to punt the thing away it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy built on a myth that everyone initially buys into due to his apparent omniscience. It's a farcical approach to setting up a team and, quite frankly, i think you're talking crap.

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Originally Posted by mypost

We should be at the level Scotland are.

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Yup. Drawing 0-0 against Serbia would be progress alright.

I think saying that we're getting the results is a valid argument to some extent.

In investment management there's a concept of "risk adjusted return". A manager might be able to deliver 10% returns on your money wheraes another might only be returning 5%. But the guy who returns 5% might be taking less risk, might be able to deliver 5% with much more regularity and might be able to avoid a big loss if things go awry, ie the downside is limited versus the 10% guy's strategy.

In a way this analogy holds in our case: I think the signs are that despite the fact that we are on a run of away results that are probably as good as we have ever had that we are getting these results with an increasing amount of risk. The way we are playing indicates to me that we are liable to a couple of very bad results at some stage, not from a Spain / Italy / Germany but from in form tier 2 or tier 3 sides. We might even have another Lichtenstein on our hands in the Faores. Also, there just appears to be no way we can hope (hope not expect) for a home win over Germany as we would have done over the years against our top seed. We just can't play against good teams by squandering possession all night long, and curtailing the use of those players who can actually cause a threat.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Worth a mention that 6th seeded Iceland, hammered first seeds Norway :)
That kinda assumes we're a big team going to a minnow, that scenario no longer applies. There is not the least glimmer that Trap will draw back from this compulsive hoofing obsession.
At this stage our level is no better than 4th place in the group and that's where we are heading for sure. We have the potential to be better than the so called minnows but we are struggle to even achieve that position. It's only a matter of time before we will be embarrassed by a minnow, next up are the Faroes, who (like Kazakhstan) will fancy their chances.

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Not sure, I think we will manage third. We have the potential to achieve second but Sweden are infuriating consistent in qualifying and should be favourites to beat us there.

Under Trap so far, we have managed to sweep aside the tricky minnows, some would say with a degree of luck but nonetheless we have not dropped points against the lower seeds. Cyprus, Armenia, Macedonia, Georgia.

Montenegro were the only lower seeds that we have not claimed full points against under Trap. And in fairness Montenegro were a damn good team for their seeding, plus the home leg was a dead rubber.

One of the major problems with this team may be summed up by the fact that next game Germany at home, I see a point as a superb bonus. The Faroes match is the big one. And that is sad, we should be confident of giving anyone a game at our own patch. But after the likes of Slovakia and Russia at home in the last campaign and the performances in the Euros and current form/style of the team, I cant see anything but a German win.

Funnily enough its not the personell thats the problem, on paper we have a reasonable team. Its the style we play which I fear Germany (and maybe others) will greatly expose. If you saw how Russia destroyed us in two games, why would you play any different against us.

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Originally Posted by elroy

If you saw how Russia destroyed us in two games, why would you play any different against us.

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I think this will increasingly be a problem. Lots of international managers will have seen how Russia - and Spain and Croatia and probably Italy (I didn't see that game) - played against us. Even the Kazakh and Austrian and Faroese manager (who'll likely have Brian Kerr whispering in his ear) will have seen it. I'd say increasingly teams will see how to play against us, and will do so. After all, why wouldn't you change tactics to suit the team you're playing against...?

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Originally Posted by mypost

It appears that despite the poor performances, few if any of the players are getting stick. It's all Trap, Trap, Trap. That's a cover for the real issues, which would be shown clearly with a different man in charge. We should be at the level Scotland are. The difference is our coach has seen it all and won it all. Theirs coached Raith Rovers and Leicester City.

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Who keeps picking O'Shea, Whelan, Green, Ward and co despite abject performances?

Who plays strikers on the wing insead of a recognised winger?

Of course the manager is getting the stick. It's surely common sense in playing players in their proper positions and picking players on form.

Ive not read all the posts, but i noticed on here, ive said it before and offline again to a few of the main posters on here, but Mccarthy was actually very good in the second half. If you didnt realise this or see this, then you really dont understand the difference between being at a game and not being at a game. ON 2 seperate occassions in the second half, he gave out to o'dea and someone else, for hoofing the ball forward. He kept calling at them and asking for the ball, kept turning into space as well when he received the ball. So refreshing to see that when compared with Whelan running away from the full backs and wingers when they need support or an out ball, or when he receives it and is automatically turned to our own goal.

I thought doyle played well when he came on, the kazakhs didnt like direct running or being taken on, yet we insisted on hoofing the ball forward. Walters did his best but wasn't great, and mcgeady was way off form. They would have hated to come up against duff. It was good to see mcgeady getting frustrated with his own crossing as well. Good to see he recognises how crap it was.

On a hard, bouncy, artifical pitch the dumbest thing to do is to play high balls. The abll takes longer to get under control and plays right into the opposition's hands in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Why can't he [Dunne] pass the ball ten yards then?

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Of course he can. He was most vocal in criticism of the long ball game after Russia at home. I think there are other reasons for the hoofball. Andrews wrote on saturday that they're not told to do it so to me it would indicate that nobody ahead of Dunne in midfield is demanding the ball.