Rugby Union 2009

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Hook was absoulutely brutal when he came on. How on earth can he considered ahead of O'Gara?
I thought Fitzgerald gave the selectors something to think about.

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It is no surprise the Lions structure collapsed when Hook came on for O'Gara. He is not a reliable no.10. At this stage there is not value in picking his as utility back on the bench as he has played almost all his time as no.10 on this tour. He does have a big kick but O'Gara not far off his distances either.

Fitzgeralds kicking continues to let him down. If Byrne is injured & Kearney starts I would have Earls on the bench.

If Shaw was being lined up for saturday surely he would have started yesterday as he can't be tired as hasn't played too much.

I think there will less changes than some are predicting outside of the front row.

I've said from the start that because of Gatland & Edwards involvement we'd have a strong Welsh slant on the side.
I agree with you RealAle that when you think that Ireland have just finished a grand slam wining season along side Leinster winning the Heineken Cup & Munster the Celtic League you'd think there would be a heavy Irish element to the side but here's my 2p worth.
As soon as Flannery got injured the emphasis had to change, getting a line out to compete with the Boks was always going to be tricky but without POC's main man & given the very average std of the other available hookers the Lions were always going to strugge for lineout ball. ROG's main strenght is his tactical kicking, pinning teams in the corners and having a good line out to steal/disrupt ball. With that lineout strenght taken away ROG becomes less influential to a game & you need a fly half who is capable of a bit more creativity. For me Jones falls between 2 stools, his kicking isn't as good as ROG but he's not creative enough, Hook, despte his mediocrity last night is the most creative of the 3.
What I don't get is the ommission of both Irish Props from the tour considering how good they were against Wales, and I don't think it's an Irish bias (I've heard it several times here) to say if POC is the captain & cast in stone, then play O'Callaghan beside him, they are used to working together and know each others games, imho Jones & POC are too similar and don't particularly compliment each other.
Before it all started I felt the only 3 real shoe-ins were POC, BOD & Byrne & virtually every other position was open to at least 2 players, some like Bowe,Roberts & Phillips have made themselves cast iron test players but none of the forwards have not particularly put their positions beyond doubt, pre-tour I though Sheridan & Murray would be the test props but neither have excelled and have lost out, Geech to his credit has said he was picking players on form & by and large that has been the case.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Ah come off it man - i've never in my whole life in any team sport heard or seen of any player ask to have another player substituted unless there's an injury . Its just not a fair argument. The Lions had a coach in the stand, a specialist forwards coach and a specalist scrum coach - who picked, and then allowed Vickery to stay on the pitch for 45 odd minutes - they have already shouldered the blame for that.

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couldnt agree more. the comment above is just plain ridiculous

I believe Lee Byrne is a big injury doubt. I would like to see the team look something like this:

Kearney; Bowe, BOD, Roberts, Earls; Jones, Phillips; Jenkins, Rees, Jones; O'Connell, O'Callaghan; Croft, Williams, Wallace.

Can't see it happening though. Earls and Kearneys ability to interchange would add a lot of pep to that backline, and I believe that Earls has shown more than enough to merit a place in the side ahead of Monye, Shane Williams or Fitzgerald. Just my opinion though.

Heaslip isn't up to this standard in my book. He looked badly off the pace last week and was exposed physically. I'd like to see Wally and Williams on the field together. Croft will be retained for his lineout ability and pace.

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

Heaslip isn't up to this standard in my book. He looked badly off the pace last week and was exposed physically

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i think heaslip is up to it but cant understand why he didnt play so well last sat. maybe the occasion got to him? i remember his name being mentioned in commentary late in the game and id almost forgotten he was playing.

very few changes except for the front row with maybe monye being dropped. if williams or fitzgerald were playing last sat they would have finished off at least one of the chances monye missed. his poor finishing was inexcusable for an international wing

I can't believe JoeSoap only picked 4 Munster men. What has ROG ever done to you?

Wallace over Heaslip at 8 is beyond laughable

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Originally Posted by jbyrne

i think heaslip is up to it but cant understand why he didnt play so well last sat. maybe the occasion got to him? i remember his name being mentioned in commentary late in the game and id almost forgotten he was playing.

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The back rows from both sides were very quiet as even Spiers was hardly seen. PLayers won;t be dropped on the basis of one poor game unless maybe original decision a tight one & someone has stepped to make a claim.

Was Powell a good player at some stage? Can't believe how bad he is. He might survive in rugby league as not sure if defenders can rip the ball out in the tackle...

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

I believe Lee Byrne is a big injury doubt. I would like to see the team look something like this:

Kearney; Bowe, BOD, Roberts, Earls; Jones, Phillips; Jenkins, Rees, Jones; O'Connell, O'Callaghan; Croft, Williams, Wallace.

Can't see it happening though. Earls and Kearneys ability to interchange would add a lot of pep to that backline, and I believe that Earls has shown more than enough to merit a place in the side ahead of Monye, Shane Williams or Fitzgerald. Just my opinion though.

Heaslip isn't up to this standard in my book. He looked badly off the pace last week and was exposed physically. I'd like to see Wally and Williams on the field together. Croft will be retained for his lineout ability and pace.

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We'd want to play a 7's game with a backrow that light. The minute the ball went into contact we'd be screwed.

No complaints with the backline, despite the Munster focus to it.

I'd like to see Earls start on the wing, a fantastic runner with the ball in hand.

I wouldn't say Wallace and Croft are that light, not to their faces anyway!
I agree Earls deserves a place on the bench but i don't think the management won't take a chance on him to start as he was a bit nervous the first day.

I wasn't impressed by Earls under the high ball at all last night, admittedly in poor conditions. I think he's way too rough around the edges still for Test rugby but if something special is needed late on he has the pace and the sidestep that Sth Africa looked vulnerable to in the first test.

I'd like to see Shaw in for the next game and the Welsh front row changes mooted earlier. I thought Mears's throwing in was very nervy in the first test.

I honestly think ROG is the most relaible 10 on this tour. He's less fluent than Jones but he has presence and is commanding. His kicking for territory is the best we have and, inexplicable miss last night aside, will be worth a few points over Jones with the boot. As Pete says, Hook can only be a plan C. He made one superb Hollywood kick for touch last night but looked uncertain right from the start and his Rob Saunders-like kick at the end cost the Lions the win.

I think Kearney should start at 15 even if Byrne is fit. He looked like he was born for this situation when he came on last week. I don't think I've ever seen a better fielder of a high ball at this level. He returns kicks well too and is sound defensively.

I'm not sure Fitzgerald has done enough. Monye is safe under a high ball, returns it well, I haven't noticed him being weak in the tackle and he runs aggressively - it's just his finishing lets him down. It's a tough call. Could Williams' cameo at 11 last night signal a change in thinking for the coaches? Or was Fitzgerald being protected?

I don't think I know as much about the technical aspects of the game as others here but that's my slightly Irish biased view.

Here's my XV:

15 Kearney
14 Bowe 13 BOD 12 Roberts 11 Fitzgerald
10 Jones 9 Phillips;
1 Jenkins 2 Rees 3 Jones
4 Shaw 5 POC
6 Croft 7 Williams 8 Heaslip
Subs: Mears, Vickery/Hayes, O'Callaghan, Wallace, Ellis, O'Gara, Byrne

what time is the team announced? 12.30 or 2.30?

Stuttgart, I can't convey in words how sh!t the weather was at Newlands, 70-80km winds with gusts of 100km+ & driving torrential rain, Newlands gets more rain than anywhere else in SA (foothills of the mountain you see) but it's been torrentiall for the last week so it was very soft underfoot as well as the wind & rain.
To put it in context when we stopped to get a burger on the way home, it was so windy I couldn't shut the door of Nando's without help, when I got back to the car there was a film of sand on the windscreen that had blown from the beach 300+ metres away in the space of 10 minutes!
I think I read that ROG said it was amongst the worst conditions he's ever played in, & that coming from someone who plays their club rugby in Limerick, I've seen Angelas Ashes it rains a lot :D

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

what time is the team announced? 12.30 or 2.30?

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12.30 i believe.

Earls was ok under the high ball as he competed for all of them & did not seem to make any obvious errors. The high balls the boks sending in were very good & they chased them them well.

I now think Hook will be on the bench as out half & centre cover as he offers a plan C option. It will also make no sense to have Hook & O'Gara on the bench together.

Edit: 5 changes announced, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Shaw, Rees, Adam Jones.

R Kearney (Leinster and Ireland);
T Bowe (Ospreys and Ireland),
B O'Driscoll (Leinster and Ireland),
J Roberts (Cardiff Blues and Wales),
L Fitzgerald (Leinster and Ireland);
S Jones (Scarlets and Wales),
M Phillips (Ospreys and Wales);

G Jenkins (Cardiff Blues and Wales),
M Rees (Scarlets and Wales),
A Jones (Ospreys and Wales),
S Shaw (Wasps and England),
P O'Connell (Munster and Ireland, capt),
T Croft (Leicester and England),
D Wallace (Munster and Ireland),
J Heaslip (Leinster and Ireland).

Replacements:
R Ford (Edinburgh and Scotland), A Sheridan (Sale Sharks and England), A-W Jones (Ospreys and Wales), M Williams (Cardiff Blues and Wales),
H Ellis (Leicester and England), R O'Gara (Munster and Ireland), S Williams (Ospreys and Wales).

Surprised to see Fitzgerald start & O'Gara & Shane Williams on the bench.

I see no sense in having Alun Wyn Jones on the bench. Nor Shane Williams for that matter. Williams is very badly out of form, and Earls, Monye or D'Arcy would all have been better options than him in my book.

I predict a 20 plus point defeat.:(

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Originally Posted by joeSoap

I predict a 20 plus point defeat.:(

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On the basis of the bench?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

On the basis of the bench?

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Partially. I think Shane Williams inclusion and that of Wyn Jones won't exactly scare the Boks. Harry Ellis hardly inspires anybody and Ross Ford is a decent Magners League hooker.

I believe the altitude will be a strong factor, and one which is worth a few scores to the Boks, particularly Steyns ability to drop goals from 60m.

Also, the Boks will strip fitter for last weeks run out. They hadn't played a meaningful game in 7 months prior to that, and they will improve and not tire in the last 20 like last week.

Add the three of them together, and thats how I get my 20 point plus SA win.

If the Boks do win by a blowout (and it's very possible), it won't be because of this team. It will be because they are an all around superior unit than the Lions.

The Lions task is simple. Get within 10% of even in the forwards and the backs will win the game. Unfortunately that will require all 8 to play their best games all season to even get close to parity and that's a big ask.

Jones also needs to up his game by a huge amount.

Gutted that O'Callaghan is not even in the squad but I suppose 7 irishmen starting a lions test has to be a record? Hope they can do the business now.

OneRedArmy is sopt on - gain parity up front and the backs can win the game.

Lions to win it 21 - 17.