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I think the argument goes along two lines - it is easier to look good in a bad team because you stand out compared to your team mates, whereas with a better team the same standard of play might not get a player noticed, and also because if you are with a bad team you are likely to be playing other bad teams and not proving yourself against the best quality opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
yep i get what your saying im more so saying that people shouldnt hold it against him that he is in a bad team? liam millar and mcgeady playes the same players week in week out as did james mccarthy and in the past roy keane.. and henrick laarson:DQuote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
The other point is, that some players just cannot handle the pressure of being at a bigger club or playing at the bigger stage. Take Darren Bent for example. He made his big career move to date, when he joined Spurs, but ultimately the move failed for him, because in my opinion he hasn't got what it takes to perform at a higher level. He's gone back to a smaller club with smaller ambition and he seems to have found his level again. This is why he'll not make it into the England squad, and even if he does, he won't perform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
This is why McGeady and Stokes will never be better than what they are now. They are not mentally strong enough to perform at the next level, because they are not prepared to take the added pressures and responsibilities that go with a bigger club with more ambition.
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Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Perhaps a bit harsh, but you have to agree with me that Sidwell knew what he was doing when he decided to leave Reading for Chelsea. Yes, I'm sure he thought he was ambitious enough to perhaps make a stake for a place in the first team, but it was obviously the lure of a much greater salary that sealed the deal. Also he must have at least assessed the situation with the amount of midfielders Chelsea had, and accepted the fact that he was most likely not going to have much if any first team football. In my opinion that's a fairly disgusting attitude.
Im sorry but that is a load of rubbish. Stokes is still a kid who didnt make it under a manager who played him out of position whenever he did play him.To say a 21 year will never be better than what he is now is a load of crap. As for McGeady,the best example I can think of straight off is his performances against Arsenal in both legs of the Champions League qualifiers this season. He was brilliant in both games and proved that he was well capable of performing against that sort of opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by noddy102
Im actually getting a bit sick of the constant knocking and writing off of young players on this forum. As I said previously in this thread, Shay Given was released by Celtic and he would probably have been written off by people on this forum, likewise Richard Dunne when he was struggling earlier in his career.Plenty of people until recently were saying that John O Shea was crap.Damien Duff was in and out of the Ireland team until the qualifying campaign for the 2002 world cup when he established himself fully about halfway through the campaign, I think he was about the same age as McGeady is now.
Not every young player that is highly rated as a youngster will develop as was hoped for one reason or another, Sean Thornton and Richie Partridge are 2 examples of that.But sometimes I think that unless the player turns out to be another Messi or Pele at the age of 20 some people start writing their whole careers off
You make some pretty staggering statements there my friend. First you claim neither Stokes or McGeady have the mental capability of playing at a higher level. Then you claim that Steve Sidwell has a disgusting attitude for making an attempt to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by noddy102
Also to say Darren Bent has "found his level" at Sunderland is a bit off too. Like Stokes, Bent has benefitted from a team who plays to his strengths. He was never the target man Spurs wanted him to be.
Likewise Stokes has benefitted from having a manager who recognises his strengths and gets the best from him. Like playing him in his favoured position.
If anything I think a failed spell in the EPL will do Stokes the world of good if it leads him to mature a bit more. Stokes is a very gifted young footballer with a bit of an attitude but he will most certainly improve.
People tend to forget that there are generally not alot of 18-19 year old players let alone strikers making an impact consistently in the EPL. Which is the age Stokes was when he played there.
This constant dismissing of young Irish players is pretty tiring to be honest.
Wasn't Darren Bent Spurs' top scorer last season?
Anthony Stokes cannot do anything right in alot of peoples opinion but people need to realise he is only a kid and is working very hard now in Scotland. It might not be the best league in the world but they are in 3rd spot behind Celtic and Rangers and seem to be performing well. It would be nice to see him amongst the top 3 goalscorers up there this season!
Its annoying alright. Thankfully, its just a handful of moronic/WUM posters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strongbow10
Best ignored.
It is sad to say but the forum is missing Eirebhoy (RIP) badly. You are right though, best ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
Stokes I feel will do a job for Ireland, of all the so called young prospects he is the one I feel will rise to the top. If he keeps scoring he will grow in confidence and he seems to have that '**** you' persona that is a huge asset in a striker. He looks to be getting stronger and relishing getting 1st team football
strange that you believe McCarthy won't make it yet he scored for fun in a poorer team and in the same league that now Stokes is scoring in yet you seem to think this same criteria for Stokes (who is older than McCarthy) identifies him as the better prospect . Are you being inconsistent hereQuote:
Originally Posted by yapster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Just a hunch thats all folks.
I think the kid at Everton is going to make as well as Stokes so thats two.
I think while it is unfair to write Stokes off at 21 as he may deliver on his potential in years to come, it's not unfair to say that he isn't an immediate issue when it comes Irish strikers. Looking at it from afar, the questions to be answered in the near future are:
1. Should Simon Cox be given an opportunity to prove himself?
2. Who is our best option as last quarter big target man? Leon Best or Caleb Folan (or even Clinton Morrison)?
I can even see Terry Dixon, as long as he remains fit, becoming a realistic option sooner than Stokes as there can be no doubting his application and so is more likely to fulfil his potential quicker.
Having said that, I would take issue with those who belittle his scoring record at Falkirk because of the quality of the league. He went on loan as an eighteen-year-old and play with unfamiliar players on one of the weaker teams of a lopsided league and then scored nearly as many goals in half a season as international players Kris Boyd and Scott McDonald scored in a full season and more than Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink did in 2/3 and that is no small feat.
Leon Best put in a few decent performances for us the last campaign, Bulgaria away for one when he came on, scores regularly in the championship but am not sure if he would get many for us. Was very poor when he came on at home to France, albeit I think he may have only got 15 mins or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
Folans most notable performance for us was away to Italy where he was a thorn in their defence, made a nuisance of himself more than anything else. But other than that, not much. He needs to get a move, I see he has put in a transfer request, cant see him scoring regularly in the EPL or Championship though.
I think Clint wouldve been worth a shot this campaign, always did well for us and scored a few decent goals in his time, Swiss away comes to mind. However his level is the championship.
Noel Hunt/Shane Long, Ive seen nothing from these two lads to suggest they should be in the squad regularly. This was Longs season to really break through, he started the season first choice in Reading and hasnt scored a single goal. I think Lou Macari was commentating on their cup game against Liverpool last week and mentioned that from what he has seen Long is not a striker and would be more effective as a winger. The odd time I have seen him, I would tend to agree.
Stokes, terrible attitude in the past, perhaps this is changing now and he is back in the goals again. he is on an upward trend and if this continues he certainly could offer alot to us in the future.
Who is the kid at Everton?Quote:
Originally Posted by yapster
either coleman(whose not a kid so shows how little he knows) or duffy who might declare for us same situation as gibson??
Morrison is the best finisher we have - maybe even better than Keane - but he doesn't have the all-round game to command a regular place. I think he could hack a couple of seasons in the Premiership, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
Clint's best goal was against Israel away - unreal finish. Home to China was brilliant too.
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/spor...Roy-Keane.html
That interview seems to show that Stokes is starting to grow up a bit
2 more for Stokesie this afternoon against Hamilton.
13 for him now this season
heres hoping he keeps it up for the rest of the season...
he has the abilty there never been the qustion.
its his attitude that stinks but he starting to cop on ever so slightly at present.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...em/8480348.stm
Stokes scores again :)
and against celtic :) keep em coming
Stokes can do a good job for Ireland
I would like to see him get the whole of the game against Brazil. A half with Keane and a half with Doyle.
I know a game against Brazil is always a good thing, but it would almost have been better to play a European side of a similar standard to ourselves. We could certainly learn more.
I still think Alan Lee could do a job. He's only 31, and even in the 3rd division he can still offer more than some of our other options in that roleQuote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
Clinton Morrison is definitely not a target man...he's more of a workhorse than runs in the corners like a Kevin Doyle.
Doyle is a better header of the ball and better technically, but I think they are the same sort of player in terms of style of play.
Alan Lee said something to the effect of "I couldn't care less about playing for Ireland again" not too long ago. I think he feels hard done by in terms of getting chances to play and I'd say bridges are burnt now.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
He'd be well down the pecking order for me anyway.
he deserves a chance with all the goals hes scored in the SPL this term. id like to see him get a half at least.
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Originally Posted by backtowalsall
ah here....third tier players? German second tier players? good job you're not picking the squad
Haha. Trap is not going to pick Alan Lee. Lets move forward, not backwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Alan Lee.
i pointed out a couple of months ago on this thread how good i thought stokes is - granted it's the SPL - but take it from me the scots rate him higher than any other striker in the league - he's far superior than kenny miller ., Boyd , Mcdonald, i could go on - if he gets 20 this season he'll go back to the EPL as a 3million player and a nice little profit for Hibs - someone will definetly take a chance on him
ya isnt he still only like 21 ? maybe staying in the SPL for a few years will be good for him.
With talk of Scott McDonald leaving Celtic I wouldnt be at all surprised to see them come sniffing around Stokes in the summer
Interesting idea. If he gets a move to a bigger club he better be ready tempermentally (Maturity) the next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I don't watch the SPL at all, but would I be correct in speculating that one or both of the old firm are more likely to be picked off over the next couple years by the likes of Hibs, than they would have been a few years ago???
yep the field seems to be leveling.. the only diffrence between the sides are their historys and brand name really not a massive gap in footballing terms. hibs especially getting stronger.. liam millar scored there for them
Stokes taken off against St. Mirren after 75 minutes. Liam Miller is still not good enough to be any where near our national side. The SPL is not of a good standard.
Yeah its very poor standard now. I was looking at the hibeesbounce forum there and they love Miller - think he is a class player.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Miller was Man of the Match against Celtic on Wednesday and again today, and played really well last Saturday too. Don't know why he hasn't impressed in England or for Ireland because he's had enough chances to, maybe it's just too big a step up for him, he's looked amazing playing for Celtic and now Hibs.Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedmc
Stokes scoring record in the SPL is exceptional, something like 27 goals in 37 games. I think the Sunderland move came too soon for him and he was mis-managed by Keane but at his age he'll definately get another shot at the big time. Hibs could make a nice profit on him this summer (they paid £500k for him) or they might hang onto him for one more year (he's contracted to 2012) and take the cash then. Another year at Hibs could be good for Stokes as well.
Rangers were actually picked off by Hearts for 2nd spot in 2005/06, although Hearts achieved this by spending far outside their means and are paying for this now.Quote:
I don't watch the SPL at all, but would I be correct in speculating that one or both of the old firm are more likely to be picked off over the next couple years by the likes of Hibs, than they would have been a few years ago???
Rangers are effectively run by a bank these days and haven't bought a player for a couple of years. Celtic have some cash but are in transition and it's questionable whether Mowbray is the man to take them back to the top. So yes, it's weak at the moment but to be fair to Hibs and Dundee Utd, they have both massively improved also in the last few years, there's no way Hibs could have signed a Miller or Stokes until recently.
This and the Liam Miller thread appear to be going down the same road.
We as Irish people would have more interest in the SPL than most, most of us remember it when players like Laudrup, Gazza, Larsson, Albertz, Gattusso, Lennon, Lambert, McStay, Collins, Gough, Viduka, Sutton, Flo, Robertson, Hartson, Moravcik, McCoist and many many more were playing there now there is Boruc, McGeady and Kris Boyd with perhaps Fleck at Rangers and Stokes who are capable of playing at a much higher level. The standard has dropped dramatically since the collapse of Setanta.
dont post an almost identical point on both threads gets boaring