The FAI should probably avoid using that name if they want to retain the 'strong affiliation'. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
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The FAI should probably avoid using that name if they want to retain the 'strong affiliation'. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
So basically for these players, NI is a flag of convenience?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
My view on all this is that you dont all of a sudden realise that at the age of 20/21 you suddenly support one of the other - you grow up this way.
And to this degree I'm with the Northern Ireland supporters in that there should be cut off age at say under 18 or 19 age level where by you decide who you want to play for and that's that. The argument that this could land them in a international wilderness later on is not valid as there are plenty ROI / NI players who dont make it to senior level anyway from the underage teams.
Good luck with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
You forgot to mention, in all your "strong affiliation with the FAI" speak, that Derry City FC are members of the Irish Football Association, playing in the LOI by way of a dispensation from the said IFA.
Brazil is O'Kane really switching also ??? this is getting a bit nuts
Yes but they also need to show the FAI that they have the footballing abilities to match their international ambitions. As the FAI isn't in the position of overseeing the development of NI players, players have no choice but to go through the IFA's system to develop their careers until they reach the point where they need to make a decision on who they wish to play for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
That would be the hope. I've been quite vocal in defending McClean but it's only because I believe a lot of these guys are only starting to wake up to the possibilities and responsibilities eligibility offers. They have the gift of choice but it shouldn't be abused. From this point any young player coming through the NI system cannot plead ignorance. Bit late maybe but if this didn't happen in a couple of years then everyone could draw a line under it and move on. Think it's up to the players at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
They're not really being true to themselves, let alone the IFA, are they?Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
I mean, what self respecting Irish Republican would want to give any credance whatsoever to a State they abhor, and a team they wish didn't exist?
Shake that fence, and see what falls out.
Bang on the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
These players need to be aware that their days of dicking the IFA about are slowly, but surely, going to disappear.
Do you know, if an 18/19 year old kid was selected for his debut in a Northern Ireland shirt, and came out and said "I will not represent Northern Ireland, because I am an Irish Republican who does not wish to live a lie", I would have a hell of a lot more respect for him, compared to some of what we've seen to this point from "switchers".
I'm not sure what point you're making here. It's not simply a 'flag of convenience' - these guys are Norn Iron, they have pride at playing for NI and will represent them with distinction. They are not being mercenary. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't rather play for the ROI, once upon a time, if they felt it was realistic. This attitude seems less prevalent judging by the amount of switching that's going on...and that has to be good all round.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
My view is similar to yours but it is made more complex by the access the IFA have to these guys. Simply put, I think it's up to the players. There's no excuse for not being aware of eligibility. Hopefully players will choose risking international wilderness over simply playing.
These players can let the FAI know of their availability and ambitions from "Day 1" - that way, they don't dick the IFA about.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
If things don't work out, they can always contact the IFA, if they have a change of heart, at a later date.
I believe he is - we'll keep an eye on the press over the next while.Quote:
Originally Posted by bwagner
Our Elite Player Mentor:o, Gerry, will be on his way to Torquay as we speak - bit of a drive from Sunderland.:rolleyes:
But in essence it is becuase if you take McClean for example, he's been with the NI set up for a while now - all of a sudden his profile has risen and is now a Premiership player in the making and as he's stated himself he's decided to move to the ROI for that reason i.e. as it would be beneficial for himself - nothing to do with national pride - as he stated on his facebook page - now it could be argued that he was being in some way diplomatic with that statement but it would have been interesting to see if he'd have withdrawn from the NI squad if the move to the EPL wasnt on the cardsQuote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
He'll probably fly and pass the time listening to a Christy Moore album on his WalkmanQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Again I'm not quite sure what you mean overall - are you saying McClean declared for ROI out of national desire or opportunism?Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
From what I've gleaned of your post, my response is NI national identity is too subtle to merely say guys like McGinn and McCourt play for them out of convenience. There is room to interpret them as proud to play for NI even if they'd, hand on heart, dreamt of playing for ROI.
Maybe it was MORE convenient for McGinn and McCourt to go NI, but it's not that flippant and doesn't mean they don't have a genuine desire to play for NI. It just suggests they likely have MORE genuine desire to play for ROI.
Regardless it doesn't matter. It's still better these guys declaring for a country, and risking not playing international football, than merely settling imo.
Except there's no need for anybody to declare anything until a full competitive cap is on the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
And still see don't see anyone addressing the Hypocrisy angle of the IFA et al. As in slowly having more and more players born outside the North.
Have no problem if they're eligible, just the tedious sanctimony that comes with Irish players wanting to play for the Irish team, despite their complete eligibility.
I think it's fairly obvious what I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Going only on what he posted himself on his own Facebook page - I'd say a bit of both in his case.
As regards McGinn and McCourt we'll never know
I'm not from the North - even though my great grandfather was from Fermanagh - so I cant comment on national identity in that regard. I've no doubt that they are now proud to play for the North - I suppose my point is really that isn't it "nice" that they have this fallback to have the option to play for one or the other - but not in a mercenary way:rolleyes:
So everybody who wants to play for Ireland is a 'republican'?? Yeah, right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Clearly you don't have much knowledge of what the phrase even means, beyond certain ill-conceived myths....
Hmm, see most of your posts on this topic passim;every single one could have at least one of those adjectives attached...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
What about the individuals CDG refers to in his post yesterday??Quote:
There has been hypocrisy from the IFA and many of our fans, although is hardly evidence of it. Almost all NI fans I know want nowt to do with Bruce.
Or all the dozens of players in their more junior teams.
Will the IFA be issuing regular apologies to the English FA (& others) for 'poaching' their players??
And taking advantage of their schoolboy football network?
Of course McGinn and McCourt are only playing for NI out of opportunism. I don't think any catholic in the right mind would be proud to stand for GStQ as their own national anthem. Lets be realistic here. They are professionals who want to play international football. People like Gerry Armstrong who are completely out of touch and being bribed make me sick. I'm just a fairly moderate nationalist talking here.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
Because that's not making an awful sense considered McClean has stated repeatedly the exact opposite...Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
I don't know what he said on his Facebook page but there's been much discussion about how littered it is with his political persuasions...Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
But anyhoo I know the guy's an ROI fan and he's said as much so...I still don't know what you're getting at. Do you actually have a problem with a guy choosing to play for his country at the risk of not playing international football at all? Isn't that better for both ROI and NI fans?
The only person who's used it as a fallback is Alex Bruce. Gibson, Wilson, McClean et al have chosen to represent their country even though they've faced bitter recrimination and far more competition for squad places. McCourt and McGinn chose to play for the NI presumably because they would be honoured to play international football for Norn Iron and, to a certain extent, felt they wouldn't break in to the ROI set-up (remember McCourt was capped very young, back in 2002). I still don't quite grasp if you're having a go at these guys and, if so, why, but throwing round words like mercenary in relation to them is disrespectful.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
It isn't a fallback, but as I said, it is a gift to have the opportunity to play for both and players shouldn't abuse it. Having said that anyone who thinks it's 'nice to have a fallback' should remember how real nice the last 40 years and hundreds previous have been...
I never said or suggested that he's not an ROI fan - he's blocked his Facebook page so I cant post the comment - but he posted along the lines that it would be more beneficial to his career that he declare for us - as I stated previously - and as I stated nothing to do with him being an ROI supporter all his life.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Has he now rushed his decision to declare for us to up his profile as can be construed from his comments.
And as I stated would he have done the same were he still with Derry?
We dont know but it's a question that worth asking.
As for your comment regarding the last 40 or years previous.....I'm not from there so I cant comment on what that was like. I'm going on a purely non-political basis regardless of what his are.
Could therefore the same point be made or even more so about O'Kane who has been with the NI set up from the U16's up.
Well he's also stated: “However, it’s always been my dream to play for the Republic and hopefully that will become a reality now that I’m going to be a Sunderland player.”Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
Besides regardless of what he said - this move won't be more beneficial. Realistically he won't be breaking into the international squad for the foreseeable future and it's uncertain he ever will. He almost certainly would've got an NI cap or two at some point or other.
If you're saying McClean is being in some way a mercenary and has no affinity to the ROI, you are way off. Surely it's simpler - and more evident - to suggest McClean is taking a tougher route to international football but one he sees as more worthwhile because it's for HIS country.
This suggestion is downright weird, since it didn't up his profile in any meaningful way but did give the NI media and their fans a chance to collectively have a go. The only real reason to make that decision is because he wanted to play for HIS country.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
It's impossible to say. But what's the point of the question? You seem to be suggesting McClean is putting his own personal profile over the honour of representing his country (or any country). But that's another weird suggestion. Because, if anything his decision is the bravest and most honest one he could've made.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
If he actually wanted the profile boost and didn't care for the ROI, he could play internationals in the near future. But he's eschewed that in favour of declaring for a tougher side to break into but the one he actually wants to play for. Just because the guy's at Sunderland doesn't mean he'll make it as an international. McClean could've chosen the easy option, but he didn't. There is nothing to be gained from his decision except the possible honour of playing for HIS country.
Why? Again I still don't know what you're trying to suggest to McClean but I think you're barking up some kind of mercenary tree for some really odd reasons....Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
I didn't say it to be political, but only as a warning shot to anyone who thinks these issues over nationalities are in anyway easy. In footballing terms, the NI/ROI situation may seem very cosy. But, realistically, it's not some situation that simply dropped out of the sky. The circumstances through which they've come about should not be taken for granted.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
Again I'm not sure what point.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
All I'm saying is this - for the likes of O'Kane, McClean etc they could've gotten an easier possibility of international caps playing for NI. They've thrown they're hat in with us and the only real reason they would do that is because they genuinely want to play for us. McClean may never make it and I'm fairly certain O'Kane won't but I think they should be credited for being definitive (albeit late) on their futures. And I think it's great to see NI born players exerting their rights to declare for their country.
Who said that? Or, is that your paranoia kicking in (again)?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Clearly, James McClean sees himself as an Irish Republican.
I am well aware of the "ethos" of Irish Repuiblicanism, thanks all the same - from reading some of your posts, I think it is YOU who doesn't understand what the phrase really means.
Why would a true Irish Republican ever represent Northern Ireland?
Come to think of it, why would any true Republican support the partitionist team representing the territory of the 26 Counties?
It would be even better to see them exerting their rights to declare for "their country", before they ever represent Northern Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
You did, up thread, more than once. Selective amnesia or whataboutery? Not to mention hypocrisy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Because McClean* supports SF? Next you'll be telling me every Unionist who votes DUP supports the UVF & UDA...
Am well aware of the basic precepts of republicanism ( & loyalism), mainly because I have made the efforts to talk to those who were involved.
As for playing the North;it's down to the individual surely.
Doubtless the likes of Sammy Clingan would have a re-think given the chance again whilst many decent nationalists also play GAA to escape the clutches of the IFA.
;)
Never said he was a mercenary, Never said he had no affinity to the Republic. You obviously havent read all of what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I started off earlier questioning why O'Kane is now declaring for us when realistically he has very little chance of playing for us especially given that he's been involved with the North since the under 16's - regardless of where his national identity lies, I see no benefit in him declaring for us. So wouldn't he be bettr off staying with NI?
Nothing weird or cryptic in that!
I questioned one thing about McClean and that was if he was using declaring for us to up his profile and you twist it to make out that I said he was some kind of mercenary etc - when that wasnt the point of my question.
I never once said that I thought there was anything wrong in him doing that either.
I asked whether certain players were therefore using NI as a flag of convenience seeing as their first choice, ROI, would have been out of their reach - which you explained well in fairness -But that can be said for anyone declaring for a country other than that of their birth not just in this case
I have suggested that it is quite rational and logical for an Irish Nationalist/Republican to want to play for/ support the South. The clue is in "republican".Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
What I'm unclear about is why a steadfast and principled Irish Republican would ever represent an international team representing a British Association (as defined by FIFA) and a territory which forms part of the United Kingdom.
The last time I looked, (P)SF clearly style themselves as an Irish Republican Party - so, therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that young McClean's support for (P)SF would be indicative of an Irish republican outlook.
I'm an unapologetic Unionist and Loyalist - I totally denounce the UVF and UDA. It is they, not me, who has a misguided sense of "loyalty", and what that means.
It is you who seems to always equate Republicanism and Loyalism with paramilitarism - not me! Although, in the case of (P)SF, they don't hide their admiration for paramilitaries, as evidenced on their website and other publications.
What do you mean by "those who were involved". We're all "involved".
However, we digress.
I met with members Sammy Clinghan's family (mother and sister) at a supporters function in The Hilton Hotel, Belfast a couple of years back - his family travel extensively to watch him play. Sammy loves playing for Northern ireland, and his family are very proud of him.
Those Northern Irish born players who have switched to the South of late, have exclusively been from a nationalist/republican background.
Perhaps we'll see the day when a great prospect, born in Northern Ireland, from a Unionist/Loyalist background declares for the FAI before ever representing the IFA - and then plays for the South through all ages, up to his senior international call up. At that point he'll realise what his "childhood dream" really was, and will switch to the IFA?
PS. I know one or two "decent nationalists" who gave up playing GAA to embrace the opportunity to play for my favourite club side. One of them scored the winner in last season's Irish Cup Final. And how we celebrated.
Maybe it's dawned on him that Northern Ireland isn't "his country", and has decided to stop living a lie and be honest to himself?Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
He's got off the uncomfortable fence he found himself on?
Well he sat on it since the under 16's with ye - I'd say his ass is ruined with the splinters embedded in it!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
At 16 & 17 is international football not determined by where you go to school (in terms of territory), and is therefore a different kettle of fish?Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
I'd cut 16 & 17 year olds some slack on this matter.
I presume you mean any Nationalist/Republican in their right mind, as opposed to "any Catholic"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky-O'Hare
No, you're not correct there, James MCarthy played under 17 for us - along with many others who didnt go to school here. There are schoolboy teams which are different to national teams alright where you have to be going to school in that country as in the case of Daniel Kearns (discussed earlier) who played one week for us and the next week for NI schools agaist usQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
The NISFA are responsible for internationals at Under 15, Under 16 & Under 18 levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
The IFA are directly responsible for representative teams at Under 17, Under 19, Under 21 and Senior levels.
Yeah, the SFAI are responsible for the schoolboy teams here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
But the youth national teams start here at U15 up to the U18's
What do you mean by embrace? I am somewhat confused, unless of course that was your intention. There is a huge difference between focusing on one sport or another, or even in the case of professional football giving up other sports, however that does not mean in any shape or form, that one "embraces" one sport more by doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I don't know why that annoyed me, but the way you said it I'm pretty sure you knew what you meant in this case.
Apologies if I took what you said out of context but, if I'm honest, I wasn't sure what point you were making. Was a bit vague to me tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by greendeiseboy
The benefit for Eunan O'Kane is he's being honest with himself and NI fans, as NB pointed out. Anyway to answer your point, without reference to mercenaries - no, I don't think they're doing it to boost their profile!
Gerry Armstrong has a job like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke. (I await the smart ass comments!) The Linfield u15s will soon be representing NI and a few League One players. The constant reference by NB to Irish Republicans shows how politics has certainly influenced the decisions made by many to join us. I have asked this question before, why don't the NI supporters who come on here stop avoiding the issue of why players are moving, solve it and offer the necessary pastoral care that is evidently needed to ensure this does not continue. Dissecting posts, offering irrational reasons why as well as becoming bitter are not our issue, but yours.
Er, no. If they were as dogmatic as you claim, it would be a UI team....Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Hmm and this says what exactly?Quote:
What I'm unclear about is why a steadfast and principled Irish Republican would ever represent an international team representing a British Association (as defined by FIFA) and a territory which forms part of the United Kingdom.
Doubtless numerous have, as they were previously coerced into doing so. But that's largely history for now.
This mythical (P) meaning what exactly...Quote:
The last time I looked, (P)SF clearly style themselves as an Irish Republican Party - so, therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that young McClean's support for (P)SF would be indicative of an Irish republican outlook.
I don't doubt it, so what?Quote:
I'm an unapologetic Unionist and Loyalist - I totally denounce the UVF and UDA. It is they, not me, who has a misguided sense of "loyalty", and what that means.
That you don't speak for the majority of your community?
Selective Amnesia alert.Quote:
It is you who seems to always equate Republicanism and Loyalism with paramilitarism - not me! Although, in the case of (P)SF, they don't hide their admiration for paramilitaries, as evidenced on their website and other publications.
Perhaps ask some of your more :rolleyes: 'hardcore' Linfield fans?
Because he had no other choice at the time....Quote:
Sammy loves playing for Northern ireland, and his family are very proud of him.
Contradiction alert. What about the ones who were previously coerced into playing for the North?Quote:
Those Northern Irish born players who have switched to the South of late, have exclusively been from a nationalist/republican background.
Perhaps we'll see the day when a great prospect, born in Northern Ireland, from a Unionist/Loyalist background declares for the FAI before ever representing the IFA - and then plays for the South through all ages, up to his senior international call up. At that point he'll realise what his "childhood dream" really was, and will switch to the IFA?
And if a unionist does declare and switch back;it's their choice. As per 'the rules'.
Though if they read OWB and the like, they'd doubtless get a 'greeting' some way worse than any potentially afforded to Messrs.Duffy & co, so don't presume it would happen automatically.
Especially if the paranoid postal users get involved....
That they'd given up GAA?? Shouldn't you all be supporting Aontroma....Quote:
I know one or two "decent nationalists" who gave up playing GAA to embrace the opportunity to play for my favourite club side. One of them scored the winner in last season's Irish Cup Final. And how we celebrated.
In Northern Ireland it's the same thing. Lets not kid ourselves here. We live in a backwater where your political ideaoligy is confirmed the day you are born. The only Catholics I've ever seen really embracing their Norn Irishness is Rory McIlroy and Gerry Armstrong. Though even Rory doesn't come out for the football team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky-O'Hare
Francis Campbell from Newry,the British Ambassador to the Vatican is proud of his British and Irish Identity
Frank Carson would also fit into that category.
I have many Catholic friends in Belfast who all have British passports and would identify as British as well as Irish.