Keiren Westwood G Crewe Alexandra b.1984

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

You said Keogh has been dropped despite doing nothing wrong for us, but that isn't quite true. I mentioned the Wales mistake which could have been costly.

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He was dropped before the Wales game so, in the context of this particular point, that's totally irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Okay, so he was in for three consecutive games. I don't think that is nailing down a position.

O'Dea came in for several games but was never anything other than a deputy.

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O'Dea only played when others were absent though, Keogh had gone ahead of Clark mid-Euros and at the start of this campaign. Clark was available but Keogh got in the side ahead of him. Then he was dropped, this is a fact, not sure how it can even be disputed to be honest.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

The relevance is that Keogh's blunder could have been costly and that his lack of composure may be why others have been preferred this campaign.

Whereas Randolph, despite his club circumstances, can take solace in the fact he hasn't done us wrong.

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Randolph's blunder against Serbia could have been just as costly as Keogh's against Wales though?

If Randolph's performances were declining for us I would be all for Westwood or Elliot coming in, but they aren't.

I think he is a good organiser.

If Westwood was to come in against Austria and be at fault for a goal (and I am speaking hypothetically here) then we would be back to square one.

We would have two goalkeepers dealt a blow to their confidence at a crucial juncture.

Stick with Randolph for now and if his circumstances don't change in August, reconsider.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Is it not a goalkeeper's responsibility to organise a wall?

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This has to be a wind up. And I'm actually giving you some credit by saying that.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Why would I discuss them.

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Because I asked you to. But nevermind.

Did I not say that Keogh's lapse against Wales was symptomatic of his lack of composure?

He was only in the team because Clark and Duffy were unavailable.

Fair enough. He was dropped but he never made the position his own like a Marc Wilson.

He came in to the team in strange circumstances on the back of that Belgium game.

It's rather churlish IMO to keep going back to the well re: his Serbia mistake.

The reason Randz is in the team is because his intl performances have excelled those of Westwood, though Keiren has edged him at club level this season - at a lower level albeit.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

This has to be a wind up. And I'm actually giving you some credit by saying that.



Because I asked you to. But nevermind.

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That's disappointing.

I wouldn't discuss it because it would be petty of me to discuss mistakes Westwood has made that are on a caliber with the ones Darren has, particularly at Intl level.

If Randolph is to be dropped strictly because of his club circumstances, then fair enough, but it would be extremely harsh to drop him based on what he's done for us.

Looks like O'Neill still has reservations about Westwood any way.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Nonsense. Nobody turned a blind eye to anything. That goal was forensically analysed to death. Some people felt Westwood could have done better, others think the wall hung him out to dry. People having a different opinion to you doesn't mean they're turning a blind eye.

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As you observantly pointed out back in the Iceland game thread as well, Randolph (whilst playing for West Ham against Liverpool) similarly conceded a goal from a free-kick that was placed in the opposite side of the goal to the side on which he had positioned himself due to his wall jumping prematurely and failing to do their job properly (i.e. to block the other side of the goal for him):

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

As for the goal, if a player ducks then the keeper is not going to see it until it's too late and it was right in the corner. The wall (Hourihane) simply hung him out to dry I think. Even Randolph (who would have saved it apparently) knows exactly how that feels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac_c9k6M62M

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If it's a goalkeeper's responsibility to actually control the movements of his wall after he's set them up in position - as would appear to be the bizarre implication of holding Westwood responsible for Hourihane having ducked out of the way - then wouldn't that make Randolph similarly responsible for those West Ham players in Randolph's wall against Liverpool who jumped too early and allowed Coutinho's free-kick to pass under them? One cannot apply one standard to Westwood and hold him responsible for the actions of his wall against Iceland, but apply another standard to Randolph and give him a pass despite the similar unsatisfactory actions of his wall against Liverpool.

Of course, as you say, Randolph didn't stand a chance in stopping that free-kick, just as Westwood had no chance in stopping the free-kick Iceland scored against us. Both free-kicks were well-directed in that they were placed beyond both keepers' reach, but they also could have been blocked had both walls not let their keepers down.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

To save people going down to the bottom of the article:

"One player O'Neill is glad to see belatedly work on aspects of his game is Keiren Westwood. The Sheffield Wednesday keeper's mission of making a Premier League return was ended by the Owls' play-off defeat to Huddersfield Town, but his former Sunderland boss suggested he'll be challenging Darren Randolph for the No 1 spot against Austria. "I've known Keiren for a long time and I think, as talent goes, he has enough to play in the Premier League," said O'Neill. "However, I want him to have the enthusiasm and ambition to do so. Maybe it has taken Keiren a bit of time to realise that, because he can be in a wee world of his own."

I am not sure what he means by that. He has been in the EPL and it didn't work out there, primarily due to injuries and he has certainly done his best to get SW back there.

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O'Neill speaks in riddles when he discusses Westwood. It's difficult to interpret exactly what he means in this instance, just as previous comments he'd made about Westwood were similarly difficult to decipher.

More on Westwood.

Paul Rowan thinks that pulling out of five squads, while remaining an ever-present for Sheffield Wednesday during the previous campaign, may factor in O'Neill's thinking re: Westwood.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/i...eill-rbwfbq930

I think all of our players make blunders. Given we're more a 'sum of our parts' team than outstanding individuals, I think we're very good at keeping the number as low as possible, and Randolph is one of the guys who seems to make the team more solid for me. For what it's worth, I think he's a better goalkeeper than Westwood. I don't know enough about Elliot to judge.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Randolph is one of the guys who seems to make the team more solid for me.

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Despite seemingly building a case against him, I'd agree with this bit. Randolph has done more to calm my nerves in an Irish jersey than intensify them. Hopefully that continues assuming he does retain his place.

My suspicion is that Paul Rowan is right.

Anyway, Groundhog Day. I think Westwood is the better keeper but Randolph brings a calmness I like. I loved how he just nonchalantly caught a Bale inswinger in the Wales match. As TOWK says keep Randolph in for now, but review later. I actually think that if he's not getting first team football by September he may well keep his spot anyway. It'll still be early season and the "match sharp' rationale is weaker then.

I do wonder if breaking into the team at West Ham has done more harm than good though. I think he may have shown that the more he plays, the more cracks begin to appear.

I also find O'Neill's recent comments about Westwood interesting. I don't think I've heard him speak so glowingly about Westwood's natural ability before, maybe isolated comments but nothing as emphatic as the quotes in the piece above. He also seems more affectionate towards him, despite questioning his scattered/laid back personality and ambition. For the first time since Randolph got the jersey, I'm beginning to think a change is possible, probably not for Austria though.

I'm not sure I'd agree with his black and white assessment that Westwood needs a move though, we have to be a little careful what we wish for there with Randolph unlikely to get back in at West Ham.

Elliot shouldn't be forgotten too of course. As things stand, he's quite likely to be our only starting Premier League goalkeeper next season.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

More on Westwood.

Paul Rowan thinks that pulling out of five squads, while remaining an ever-present for Sheffield Wednesday during the previous campaign, may factor in O'Neill's thinking re: Westwood.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/i...eill-rbwfbq930

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I think there is no doubt that Westwood got fed up travelling around Europe as third string keeper for Ireland when he was in the form of his life. And when Given came back at 102 to claim the top spot, that was the final straw. Some of his injuries were genuine and he did miss a number of games for Wednesday.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Some of his injuries were genuine and he did miss a number of games for Wednesday.

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Yes, he missed twelve league games for Wednesday last season (2015/16) - https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/keir.../0?saison=2015

That's over a quarter of the season so "virtually ever present" is a bit loose in that article.

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Originally Posted by Brian Lawless (thetimes.co.uk)

Westwood has not always helped himself when it comes to his Ireland career which stretches back to 2009. In the previous campaign, he withdrew from the squad for four qualifiers, as well as the playoffs against Bosnia & Herzegovina, while being virtually ever present for Wednesday.

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He was definitely managing injuries at various stages as well, as he clarified himself.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I think there is no doubt that Westwood got fed up travelling around Europe as third string keeper for Ireland when he was in the form of his life. And when Given came back at 102 to claim the top spot, that was the final straw. Some of his injuries were genuine and he did miss a number of games for Wednesday.

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He missed 12 league games and 5 Intl squads. It doesn't look good.

You can't justify the decisions he made because he was third choice and he deserved better.

If all of our players had an attitude like that where would we be?

As CD said we are the sum of our parts.

Andy Keogh travelled all over the world for us and barely got on the pitch; he played for us the same day his wife miscarried.

We are on a slippery slope if some players arbitrarily decide the conditions of playing for us.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

He missed 12 league games and 5 Intl squads. It doesn't look good.

You can't justify the decisions he made because he was third choice and he deserved better.

If all of our players had an attitude like that where would we be?

As CD said we are the sum of our parts.

Andy Keogh travelled all over the world for us and barely got on the pitch; he played for us the same day his wife miscarried.

We are on a slippery slope if some players arbitrarily decide the conditions of playing for us.

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I didn't justify it but I can understand it. Goalkeepers are also in a different position to the rest of the team. They never get called on to play for tactical reasons and because someone is tiring. They have to rely on an injury which is rare for a keeper and when the two keepers ahead of you are in your own mind, and the minds of many others (but not the manager) inferior, I can well UNDERSTAND him not wanting to travel to Georgia or wherever he allegedly cried off from.

I don't remember him feigning an injury though. Some of those games he's down as playing in, he came off injured. Joe Wildsmith, his sub, is down as playing 14 games. It's all smoke and mirrors from O'Neill. He preferred Simon Mignolet to Westwood at Sunderland and there is probably some history there and Trapp preferred Forde because Westwood wasn't getting his game at Sunderland. The irony is that when he was getting his game and playing out of his skin for Wednesday, a Division Two goalkeeper and two keepers languishing on the bench in the EPL were chosen ahead of him. I can UNDERSTAND his frustration.

Goalkeepers are only as good as their last one or two mistakes .

You need big cojones to be a goalkeeper and they may even be useful in goal...........

I don't know if it's been posted already but Neil O'Riordan said that when MON said Randolph has a fight on his hands, he was referring strictly to his club situation.

O'Neill still sounding ambiguous, but at least positive too, on "Westy" (Westwood): http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...ne-451805.html

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Originally Posted by Martin O'Neill

I’ve been very pleased with both goalkeepers. I knew Westy at club level — he’s a really talented goalkeeper. Just get his head right and he’s great.

[Liam Mackey: "And is his head right?"] He’s really fine now. He’s got over the team losing out in the play-offs and he made a really good save against Uruguay.

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O'Neill seems to be implying his "head" wasn't right at some point. What does that mean exactly? He wasn't committed? Wasn't bothered? Wasn't content being second or third choice? Or went through a spell where he was lacking confidence in his own abilities? Or was O'Neill merely suggesting Westwood was mentally down a bit as a result of Sheffield Wednesday losing out in the play-off semis on penalties? That'd be entirely understandable, but I get the impression O'Neill is speaking more generally/long-term.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

O'Neill still sounding ambiguous, but at least positive too, on "Westy" (Westwood): http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...ne-451805.html



O'Neill seems to be implying his "head" wasn't right at some point. What does that mean exactly? He wasn't committed? Wasn't bothered? Wasn't content being second or third choice? Or went through a spell where he was lacking confidence in his own abilities? Or was O'Neill merely suggesting Westwood was mentally down a bit as a result of Sheffield Wednesday losing out in the play-off semis on penalties? That'd be entirely understandable, but I get the impression O'Neill is speaking more generally/long-term.

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It's long term. He's made those comments before. I wasn't impressed with Westwood's first save I have to admit where the ball bounced off his chest. On another day that could have been a gimme to the opposition but otherwise he did well.

MON: "And is his head right. He’s really fine now. He’s got over the team losing out in the play-offs". I think that's all he means. This site has become a home for conspiracy theorists lately :)

(FWIW, I do actually think MON got peed off with KW's attendance record and maybe with a bit of justification)