Eligibility proposal

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19/11/2007, 3:16 PM
galwayhoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Is "Northern Ireland" a misnomer?

Obviously, as it doesn't cover the entire northern part of the island ;)

anyway lot of older people refer to it as Ireland anyway :):)
19/11/2007, 3:18 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

Obviously, as it doesn't cover the entire northern part of the island ;)

Goddam it Galway Hoop, he was supposed to say "no", then I could cunningly point out exactly what you've written.

Anyway, this debate has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic, as the names of the states are irrelevant to the eligibility criteria.

Weren't Uefa supposed to release their ruling last week? Or is it this week?
19/11/2007, 3:19 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

no, the name of the state refers to the state only, not the whole island.

But it uses the name for the whole island, hence it is misnamed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Is "Northern Ireland" a misnomer?

No. It is in Ireland (hence "Ireland") and in the northern part of Ireland (hence "Northern"). Fairly accurate, I should have thought. More pertinently, though, there is no other "Northern Ireland" so it is quite clear to what the name refers.
19/11/2007, 3:20 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Weren't Uefa supposed to release their ruling last week? Or is it this week?

Is it not a FIFA issue? What is UEFA's role?
19/11/2007, 3:22 PM
Stuttgart88

This reminds me of David Trimble years ago on telly. I can't recall if it was BBC, UTV or RTE. The presenter was pressing him to say whether he was "Irish" and it was put to him that if he was on holiday and a foreigner asked him where he was from what would he say? His answer was that that "I'm from that part of the United Kingdom that is called Northern Ireland". "But is that Irish?" came the response and Trimble came up with the same line. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue anyway.
19/11/2007, 3:26 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Is it not a FIFA issue? What is UEFA's role?

Yes, I meant FIFA.

Quote:

No. It is in Ireland (hence "Ireland") and in the northern part of Ireland (hence "Northern"). Fairly accurate, I should have thought. More pertinently, though, there is no other "Northern Ireland" so it is quite clear to what the name refers.

Where is Donegal, geographically?

But anyway,

Quote:

Anyway, this debate has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic, as the names of the states are irrelevant to the eligibility criteria.
19/11/2007, 3:29 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Where is Donegal, geographically?

In the big scheme of things, the 6 counties relative to the 26 as a whole are "northern". You might think it better to have called NI "North-Eastern Ireland", or whatever, and that's not an unreasonable opinion. But "Northern Ireland" was chosen, there is no other "Northern Ireland", and it is clear to what you are referring when you use the term. If you are referring to a geographical area you can use "northern Ireland" or "the north of Ireland". The meaning will be clear.
19/11/2007, 3:32 PM
antrimgreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

This reminds me of David Trimble years ago on telly. I can't recall if it was BBC, UTV or RTE. The presenter was pressing him to say whether he was "Irish" and it was put to him that if he was on holiday and a foreigner asked him where he was from what would he say? His answer was that that "I'm from that part of the United Kingdom that is called Northern Ireland". "But is that Irish?" came the response and Trimble came up with the same line. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue anyway.

That's the problem, Irish when it suits them British when it suits them, caught in a place called no man's land. Ireland is Ireland, people born in the 6 occupied counties off Ireland are as Irish as anyone born in the other 26.
19/11/2007, 3:32 PM
osarusan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

there is no other "Northern Ireland", and it is clear to what you are referring when you use the term. If you are referring to a geographical area you can use "northern Ireland"

This is a bit contradictory I'd say. It's hard to discern capital letters in spoken English
19/11/2007, 3:33 PM
endabob1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

No. It is in Ireland (hence "Ireland") and in the northern part of Ireland (hence "Northern"). Fairly accurate, I should have thought. More pertinently, though, there is no other "Northern Ireland" so it is quite clear to what the name refers.

To use that logic
It is on the island of Ireland, it takes up circa 80% of the landmass of the Island of Ireland there is no other state named "Ireland" therefore "Ireland" is "Fairly accurate".
19/11/2007, 3:36 PM
osarusan

alright, no more comments from me on state names. I'm getting as pedantic as others.

I'll wait until FIFA release their ruling to comment again. I'd advise others to do likewise.
19/11/2007, 3:41 PM
P�d Von Tirpitz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Equally, when discussing the two parts of Cyprus, it is unlikely that you refer to "Cyprus" and "Northern Cyprus".

How about Virginia and West Virginia?
19/11/2007, 3:42 PM
Drumcondra 69er

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

This reminds me of David Trimble years ago on telly. I can't recall if it was BBC, UTV or RTE. The presenter was pressing him to say whether he was "Irish" and it was put to him that if he was on holiday and a foreigner asked him where he was from what would he say? His answer was that that "I'm from that part of the United Kingdom that is called Northern Ireland". "But is that Irish?" came the response and Trimble came up with the same line. It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue anyway.

That's because he knows he's not British. At least he was aware of that misnomer!
19/11/2007, 3:44 PM
P�d Von Tirpitz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

But it uses the name for the whole island, hence it is misnamed.

No. It is in Ireland (hence "Ireland") and in the northern part of Ireland (hence "Northern"). Fairly accurate, I should have thought. More pertinently, though, there is no other "Northern Ireland" so it is quite clear to what the name refers.

But we gladly select players from the whole island, therefore at least attempting to achieve the required geographical spread. Isn't this what the thread was about in the first place?
19/11/2007, 3:51 PM
galwayhoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Cyprus is de jure (if not de facto) one state covering the whole island. In football terms, the Cyprus team officially represents the whole island.

If, however, you recognise the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus then, presumably you don't describe the Republic of Cyprus as "Cyprus".

Equally, when discussing the two parts of Cyprus, it is unlikely that you refer to "Cyprus" and "Northern Cyprus".

yes i do call it (the non-occupied part) cyprus, it had always been a united island state but a hostile neighbour invaded and now occupy a portion of the north of the island. to create the distinction i do, as it happens, refer to it as northern cyprus and cyprus. although i, like the majority realise that as it is an island it should have no partition and be one independant state - cyprus. until the day of unification however i will refer to the non-occupied part as cyprus.

this actually sounds familar to something..........
19/11/2007, 4:43 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Wikipedia doesn't clear it up much.

Beware the zealots on wikipedia regarding Ireland. A huge amount of them on both sides of the arguement.

LOL @ Blanchflower
19/11/2007, 7:12 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by antrimgreen

Ireland is Ireland, people born in the 6 occupied counties off Ireland are as Irish as anyone born in the other 26.

Well said - amazing how so many here can't grasp that.
19/11/2007, 7:14 PM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

This is a bit contradictory I'd say. It's hard to discern capital letters in spoken English

If speaking, you'd need to use different terminology or explain what you mean.
19/11/2007, 9:53 PM
kingdomkerry

When can we expect an official conformation of the proposal/ruling from FIFA?
20/11/2007, 10:18 AM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Obviously the ROI has a monopoly on ROI citizenship! Care to make any other statements of the obvious?

Your statement of the obvious doesn't diminish in any way the outrageous chauvinism of your statements about some people being "more" Irish than others on account of their political views.

It's not political views that makes them less Irish. It's relegating Ireland to a region of another country, and opting for citizenship of another country that does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Indeed, but it is, in fact, citizenship only of the ROI. NI is not part of the ROI.

Irish citizenship is open to all born in NI (subject to their parents residence status). This is agreed both by the British government and the 6C assembly in Article 1 (vi) states '[The two Governments] recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.' No mention of ROI citizenship. No mention of NI citizenship either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Ireland is an island. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The Republic is an independent state. Those are indisputable facts. It does not follow that those who acknowledge and state such facts "relegate" Ireland to "something little better than the old county of Yorkshire" (whatever on earth you mean by that).

What I mean is relegating Ireland (or the 6c) to a region of another country. That is what Yorkshire was, and plenty people consider themselves Yorkshireman/woman and British, but there is no such country as Yorkshire or Yorkshire citizenship.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I merely observe that I find it odd that someone who is 3/4 British and 1/4 Irish claims to be 100% Irish.

Yet you are 100% Irish but consider yourself British.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

That observation is not inconsistent with my "advice" (which wasn't advice, but a retort to your irrational charge of my having an identity crisis). It remains my view that those who are intellectually capable of understanding and discerning multiple identities are at less risk of having an identity crisis than those who are only able to view the world one-dimensionally and cannot understand how someone's identity might be more subtle and nuanced than simply "Irish" or "British" or any other identity. Ironically, the example that you quote actually backs up this view!

Well we all have a unique identity, but this thread is about citizenship

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I have never told anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country, so your question has no basis.

You've been going on about the 'grannies' for the past few pages being less than Irish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

In the case of the Charlton team, the problem is merely that many people didn't take them as seriously as they ought to have done due to all the granny-rulers. Took away from their success to a degree.

People didn't take 'the Charlton team' seriously due to ignorance and jealousy. Ignorance of Irish emigration. Jealousy that a side from a country with 1/19th the population beat them twice and drew with them another three times. It never took away anything from our sucess because the same detractors picked players with even less connection with the 'country' they were playing for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I'm not in the habit of responding to inane questions.

No - I think it's been pointed out several times that NI didn't avail of the granny rule for many years. Indeed, they had much tighter eligibility criteria than the South.

Much tighter eligibility criteria? You are taking the p*ss here. Picking players with not one ancestor from the 6C is a tighter eligibility criteria? You must be some sort of amadam if you think that's a tighter eligibility criteria.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Are there two Frances? Two Germanies? Two Spains? Two Israels?

The answer to those questions might give you a clue!

Yeah, One! The other area in the North east of Ireland is currently a region of Britain, which just happens to have a team playing international football.

Quote:

Originally Posted by antrimgreen

That's the problem, Irish when it suits them British when it suits them, caught in a place called no man's land. Ireland is Ireland, people born in the 6 occupied counties off Ireland are as Irish as anyone born in the other 26.

Which brings us back to the thread subject and the right for everyone in Ireland to play for Ireland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Well said - amazing how so many here can't grasp that.

Glad you finally agree! :rolleyes:

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