Thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Printable View
Thanks :)Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Is there anything to be said for having another Mass :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo69
Hope it gets sorted soon. It is galling to see clubs close to going under for sums a fraction of the Premier League's weekly wages to over hyped players.
The views of the board, or their public pronouncements? These aren't the same thing, and if it's really the former, Derry are dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
It's hard to see any alternative, the way things are going.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
But will "everyone" still be willing to get behind whatever new entity emerges?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
The club's diehard fans will (self-evidently) continue to get behind them, but what about the "average" fan, never mind the "occasionals", if DCFC2010 should end up, say, in the 'A' League?
Maribor K estimated that crowds could fall as low as 100 fans in those circumstances. In which case, there will be no gate money to pay even part-time players. What standard of player could they hope to sign on a "generous expenses" basis?
Then there is the impact that playing at that level, with that standard of player, would have on sponsorship/advertising/corporate etc i.e. it would decimate it.
Plus the fact that so many local businesses etc will have been "burned" during this and previous financial crises, that there will be very little credit (literally and figuratively) available to the club in the wider community.
And as for the other traditional "solutions" in such situations, the club cannot sell/re-mortgage its stadium or training ground, nor is there likely to be any wealthy "sugar daddy" in the wings. Moreover, whilst the local Council is presumably reasonably well-disposed towards the club, there is no sign that they can or will inject significant funds to help salvage the situation. (In fact, I shouldn't be surprised if the GAA lobby in Derry is delighted to see the "soccer" club struggling, and would do whatever they could to block its revival).
And while the fans/general public in Derry might also be generally well-disposed towards the club, even if not active attendees etc, it would be hard in the present economic climate to expect them to dip into their pockets and build a new club, in the manner of eg AFC Wimbledon or FC United of Manchester.
Looking at the bigger picture, I can't help wondering whether DCFC's relative failure to capitalise on their undoubted support (other than when spending money they don't have, that is) all stems from an inherent structural weakness? That is, other comparable clubs have either owned their ground outright, or at least had a long lease with their local Council, which allows them to borrow/re-mortgage/raise share capital etc, when times are bad, or in good times, when they have wanted to expand.
Whereas the complicated ownership of the Brandywell has meant that Banks/Shareholders/the Council etc could not justifiably or rationally invest significant amounts in the club, even if they wanted to.
So that even if DCFC should somehow get through the latest crisis, unless or until this inherent structural weakness in the club is resolved, it is hard to be confident that there can be a viable long term future for DCFC in top-flight football anywhere in Ireland (ROI or NI).
Of course it will never happen, but the purely "logical" solution would be a merger with their neighbours in Drumahoe for a spell in the IL (as a part-time club), before the new "Derry City Institute FC" moved into a new municipal stadium somewhere in the City.
Oh well. :(
Lads,
We wont see ye stuck! Ye can always move South of the border,maybe Stranorlar, call yourselves Finn Harps,drop the pink stripes and play in a new superdooper stadium!(I know its childish but I just couldn't resist!;))
More conjecture and hypothesising.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The answer is - we just don't know, and won't know until it happens.
And whilst Maribor is right on most things, I think he's wrong if he's suggested we'd only get crowds of about 100 in the A League. That would mean over 90% of current season ticket holders deserting us. I could probably list a hundred people in Derry who'd I'd be confident would go to games regularly, and I haven't lived there for 18 yrs !
We'd struggle to attract big crowds to the A'league - granted. But I don't believe for one minute our hard-core would evapourate to that extent. I'm sure the doom and gloom merchants said the likes of Luton and York etc would face tiny crowds when they fell out of football. Reality is that they're getting their biggest crowds in years down there.
Personally I'd love watching some new teams and having some wacky away trips for a year or two. So long as it wasn't any longer - which is the key thing.
Why would or should Derry City Council put a penny into DCFC ? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
And the GAA lobby in the city is small. Active, and they have the ear of the Shinners, but nonetheless small.
More hypthecating and conjecture. How about we just see what happens, eh... ?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Conversely - there is a view within the footballing community that owning a ground can often be a burden towards a club, particularly when they operate in a weak league. On the basis that it leaves them prone to predators who buy the club just to use the ground (e.g. lots of non-league clubs in London), ort they constantly erode the value in the ground by wacking debt against it until it no longer exists (e.g. Shels and Bohs), or a fan-owner views sale of the stadium as the only way to get any money back after they've chased the dream for too long (Kilcoyne at Rovers). So owning a ground can often be a burden as much a sblessing. It hasn't done much good for Bohs, Shels or Drogs to-date, has it....?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Conversely, there are lots of clubs in the world who play out of municipal grounds they don't own and who prosper. And what is so complicated about the model of playing out of a municipal stadium ? It's very normal in Europe, the US, Australia etc. The Brandywell may be semi-decrepit, but it isn't the reason why we're in the trouble we are now.
So the crux of your long-winded post is to suggest that Derry City is an inherently unsustainable entity, regardless of who runs it or what form it takes - purely bnecause we don't own our own ground. Are you listening Shamrock Rovers ??Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Where to begin, where to begin..... :o
I think the best solution all-round to our stadium siotuation is for Institute, Derry City and City of Derry Rugby Club to all agree to play in a single new purpose-built municipal stadium - preferably at Templemore. That would be a relatively difficult proposition for the Assembly, IFA etc to say no to. But it won't happen, given the geographical splits in the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
About as logical as Glentoran merging with Linfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Not really, Institute are a very small club with a couple of supporters. Derry City are in the verge of being nothing. A merger would be beneficial for both clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Linfield on the other hand are pretty healthy, we own our stadium, have little to no debt, running at profits each year and although our support this year is very poor, it's still amongst the biggest around.
Glentoran although financially not so great, they still own their ground, have a similar following to Linfield and in no need to merge with Linfield.
Two very different scenarios.
In saying that, I do agree that it's a non-runner and shouldn't be considered (and it wont).
But to compare the two scenarios as like for like is equally as wrong IMO.
I don't disagree with most of what you say, but I disagree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
A merger may benefit the respective legal entities, but on the basis the essence of a football club is its fans, and 90% of them would be against it, then its clearly wouldn't benefit "the clubs".
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
You may well be correct, and MK incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Perhaps, but I would argue that of those two clubs (both in significantly bigger cities than Derry, btw), York are now operating nearer their true" level and while Luton are currently benefiting from a "Blitz Spirit", their crowds are still v.significantly down on their long-term post-War average.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Besides, the Conference is an almost all full-time league of 24 teams, whose average crowds and stadia are significantly better than the 10 team LOI Premier, never mind the 'A' League.
No doubt, though it is hard at this stage to see how "DCFC 2010" could guarantee it would be less than a year or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I'm not saying they should, merely pointing out that one "benefactor" (i.e. the local Council), which is sometimes prepared to help out clubs in DCFC's situation, isn't likely to do so here, that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
No doubt; however, I merely mentioned them as (yet) "one more thing..."Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Might as well close the thread for now, then, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Nonsense! Just because certain other clubs have squandered or abused a valuable asset, doesn't mean it is better to have no assets at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Or are you seriously suggesting that the source of Bohs/Shels/Drogs woes are not incompetent (or worse :eek:) management etc, but rather because they owned their own grounds...
I never asserted that playing in a municipal stadium is inherently unsustainable, nor do I have to go to Europe/US/Oz etc to find models where it does work - Ballymena United or Shamrock Rovers, for instance, are perfectly good examples nearer to home.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Rather, the point I was making was that as a source of "capital", to sustain them during difficult times, DCFC own neither a stadium nor a long-term lease on a stadium (nor have a particularly helpful owner of the stadium in which they do play). Try to keep up.
No, I did not say that at all. DCFC has certain valuable "assets", chiefly a loyal support, goodwill in the wider community and a proud history etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
But it also has a major problem in its (historic) lack of capital, which makes it inherently weak, not "unsustainable".
Therefore, the club can still thrive despite this weakness when times are good and it is being well run.
However, when times are hard or it is being badly run, it will struggle.
And sadly, there may be only so many times a club can recover from periods of struggle, especially when hit by the double whammy of hard times and bad management, over a prolonged period.
Hadn't thought of City of Derry RFC, tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
But regardless of how unlikely such a solution may be, for various reasons, it may still need something equally radical and imaginative, if DCFC is going to survive in recognisable form.
P.S. There is a difference between "long" and "long winded". :rolleyes:
Like a new trading vehicle (hopefully members owned) and a relegation one or two divisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Is that radical enough?
Thats what most reasonable fans I talk to are hoping for at this stage.
If it's a new company, there's no relegation as such. The new company has to apply for a license of their own, the current one can't be transferred. Something that needs to be thought about given that applications were to be in last Friday.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Is examinership an option? Does it work the same in the UK as here?
They call it administration, but similar enough, I think. Thing is, they still have to cut a deal with their creditors, and they've already burnt (or at least badly scorched) those bridges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
I deleted it because I realised I misread the context of your post regarding the winding up order but I just feel this crisis is a matter for Derry City fans, all of who are dealing with it in their own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Derry City has contributed so much to Irish Soccer over the past number of years and their supporters contribute a hell of a lot to the coffers of the clubs they visit - our cup game against them a couple of months back was one of the best nights in The Showgrounds this season - I really hope they come through it.
As I've said many times before the enforcement NI legislation around administration is worlds away from the examinership process. Its chalk and cheese.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
HRMC look for c80% upwards iirc from the last time we went under.
That even ignores the lack of goodwill we have built up which only makes it a more remote possibility.
The examinership is a lovely process, you're guaranteed to be saved if you go into it if you're a football club. In any other business Cork and Drogheda would have been gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Originally Posted by EalingGreen:
"But regardless of how unlikely such a solution may be, for various reasons, it may still need something equally radical and imaginative, if DCFC is going to survive in recognisable form"
If one discounts the opinion of MICL and Schumi etc (i.e. that it is not so simple as all that), then that may be enough... ...for the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
What I am getting at is, why is a club like DCFC, with so much obviously going for it, still getting into such deep trouble? That is, a club like yours might expect following a bad run etc to have to sell a few players, make economies, drop down a Division for a season or two and so on.
But after 20 generally successful years (League Titles, Cups, Europe, big crowds, transfer income etc), this is now the 3rd(?) time the club's very existence has been threatened.
Sure, there has been poor management etc, but all clubs face that from time to time, without it risking being terminal.
Which leads me to think that it is actually more than that. And if so, I can only think that it is because throughout its history, DCFC has never had access to significant capital, either internally or externally generated, to prevent a problem becoming a crisis.
For if you look at other clubs which have hit hard times, in Ireland or elsewhere, if all else fails, they can usually rely on the Bank or a 'Sugar Daddy' etc to bail them out, with the risk secured against assets. Leeds, for instance, have suffered terrible problems, which really should have sunk them, but they have always got by, since they could always remortgage or sell & lease back Elland Road and/or Thorpe Arch.
Which is why I feel that DCFC needs something radical i.e. even if they somehow extricate themselves from the present crisis, the next one may be only a short distance away.
And you can only go to the well so many times, before the bucket comes up dry...:(
I don't buy this. More clubs in the LoI don't own their grounds than do. Sligo's is held in trust (as are several others - Athlone? Monaghan?), Shams, Fingal and Waterford have council-owned grounds, UCD's ground remains the property of the college. Shels have sold theirs, Bohs have sold theirs, Bohs have sold theirs, Cork rent, as do Limerick and Galway (?). Drogheda's is owned by the FAI since a bail-out of old. There was a thread on this a while back.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
"That bit over there, we sold it two times"
Seriously though, while 3 separate entities may have a claim on the Tramway end, we haven't actually sold the ground in toto to anyone.......yet.