Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

There is absolutely no reason a pyramid system can't work in Ireland, the same way it does in the rest of the world.

If a Salthill/Mervue get promoted..they can get relegated too.

If ten Dublin teams get promoted to the Premier Division, then fair play to them for being the best ten teams in the country.

Likewise, if ten Cork teams get there, well done to them, but they can easily capitulate and drop back to a third or fourth division and rebuild, rather than being stuck in the First Division.

I just don't understand any opposition to the idea.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

I just don't understand any opposition to the idea.

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The view in some quarters is that it will inhibit more teams attaining a professional setup. Non LoI entities from non LoI areas can join the youth leagues. Applying that at senior level is consistent. Club licencing criteria and one club for a urban area or region should offer a club the platform to attain a professional setup.
Finn Harps has the population of Donegal to attract. There can be a moment that sparks a game into life. If Finn Harps can find the spark that attracts consistent big crowds from the Donegal catchment area, being the only club with in that catchment area should assist.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yes - but hasn't that just deferred the same problem we had anyway?

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Has it? The First has been a massive success really.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think we can argue it was unsuccessful. We know the FAI had a plan to launch a 20-team third tier for 2023 and yet 12 months later we have not a single club for it (granted, some of the clubs would have been reserve teams). The only new team in that time, Kerry, are plugging a gap in the First Division, which has a pretty big rate of attrition. That's a failure in my eye.

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2023 was always a weird time frame to use, and was never going to happen (just like to reach 30th rank in europe by 2025). And of course we would hear nothing about it, I doubt individual teams will announce it, as it would cause too big of ripples in their leagues. I would have always assumed that we would hear both the league and teams officially announced together. Thats not to say I know anything, and it could be very unsuccessful and has already died... but thats what I would have thought the process would have been.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

There's something in this for sure. Yes, the MSL/LSL need to be more than a Cork/Dublin league for sure. And yes, you need to get rid of silly stuff like the AUL/United Churches League and the various district leagues.

But I still think it's the proper plan, even if it can't be just clicked into place like the Highland/Lowland league in Scotland. It'd be quicker than trying to convince 12 new clubs to jump up.

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I think you are forgetting that the LSL and MSL have zero interest in changing their structures currently and do not want a pyramid. The only people who could do it is the FAI.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And I think MSL/LSL clubs are less likely to want to be promoted to a national third tier than to the First Division tbh. If the First Division is a graveyard, what's the third tier going to be like, when a good chunk of it is B teams (not hugely popular among "real" clubs on the continent afaik. I wouldn't be worried about the jump - let them have a target to bridge.

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But is it though? I think graveyard is used to describe its national media coverage, not as in stagnant football thats not the First (well at least as bad as it could be). Only Athlone are really standing still.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Such as what, out of interest?

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1) Too easy to get relegated from 3rd liga/ too hard to get promoted from the 5 regionalliga. A massive bottleneck for teams
2) Too big of a variation on and off the pitch. Teams who could get 10,000 to a game play teams who get 200- too hard for the big teams to rebuild
3) Unfocus use of resources- resources are too thinly spread across a 100 teams instead of 20 (for example hard to get on tv)

They were trying to introduce a 4th Liga before COVID

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

There is absolutely no reason a pyramid system can't work in Ireland, the same way it does in the rest of the world.

If a Salthill/Mervue get promoted..they can get relegated too.

If ten Dublin teams get promoted to the Premier Division, then fair play to them for being the best ten teams in the country.

Likewise, if ten Cork teams get there, well done to them, but they can easily capitulate and drop back to a third or fourth division and rebuild, rather than being stuck in the First Division.

I just don't understand any opposition to the idea.

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Its two seperate issues though... What is fair in a sporting sense, and how to develop football in the Country

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

So when it comes down to it, your stuff about rugby and GAA is irrelevant and quietly dropped, the points about the clubs not wanting a pyramid is also not relevant to the fact that it's shown to be the best system, and really you seem to think the status quo is best because it's too hard to do anything else?

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You're deliverately conflating 2 completely unrelated points here.

The GAA, rugby etc point is about the SPECTATOR DEMAND for football in Ireland. The pyramid issue is about the structures. They are clearly very different things. You could have a very deep pyramid with tiny crowds, or a very shallow 'pyramid'/structure with huge crowds. Because the 2 things are clearly separate issues.

Where did I say that the status quo is best ? Or that nothing should be done ? I just presented what is an undeniable problem re how football is run in Ireland - but also gave a very clearly solution. You need to read what people actually write :cool:

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Originally Posted by legendz

The view in some quarters is that it will inhibit more teams attaining a professional setup. Non LoI entities from non LoI areas can join the youth leagues. Applying that at senior level is consistent. Club licencing criteria and one club for a urban area or region should offer a club the platform to attain a professional setup.
Finn Harps has the population of Donegal to attract. There can be a moment that sparks a game into life. If Finn Harps can find the spark that attracts consistent big crowds from the Donegal catchment area, being the only club with in that catchment area should assist.

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Would all of Donegal genuinely be attracted to Finn Harps though ? Surely the very south of the county looks more towards Sligo than to Ballybofey (the Barnes Mor gap is a big social and historical barrier within the county) ? Likewise, Inishowen traditionally looks more towards Derry. And the Gaeltacht west of the county looks more towards Croke Park. I don't think you can just magically say that Finn Harps is the universal team for Donegal. If a Letterkenny team ever joined the senior game I think Harps would find themselves struggling to compete with them over time, purely because of the population and infrastructure in LK. Ballybofey and Stranorlar combined are only the 3rd biggest population centre in Donegal - with 6,000 people (vs 20,000 in Letterkenny, and a planned increase on that of 40+% over the next 20yrs).

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

Has it? The First has been a massive success really.

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On what basis?

Every single team to have joined it - bar Bray - has gone bankrupt. That's not a success. We've lost Newcastlewest, St James' Gate, St Francis, Home Farm, Kildare, Kilkenny, Mervue, Salthill, Cabinteely, Wexford and Waterford (both of whom came back) God knows how many Limerick teams - and that's just from those who were in the First Division at the time. It doesn't count Cobh, Monaghan, Dublin City or Sporting Fingal, who went bust in the Premier but were never really Premier Division sides. And Wexford/Waterford pulled a fast one by going bust, clearing debt, and restarting at the same level (hence Waterford being banned from Europe, and Fran Gavin has acknowledged Wexford did the same thing)

I'd challenge you to find a second tier anywhere in Europe with that rate of attrition. Graveyard? I think so.

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

I think you are forgetting that the LSL and MSL have zero interest in changing their structures currently and do not want a pyramid.

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Not forgetting it at all. I completely agree. I've referenced it a number of times. And I'll do it again here - it's the biggest problem in all this.

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

1) Too easy to get relegated from 3rd liga/ too hard to get promoted from the 5 regionalliga. A massive bottleneck for teams
2) Too big of a variation on and off the pitch. Teams who could get 10,000 to a game play teams who get 200- too hard for the big teams to rebuild
3) Unfocus use of resources- resources are too thinly spread across a 100 teams instead of 20 (for example hard to get on tv)

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Nothing unsurmountable there really. 10k crowds or TV coverage is unlikely to be an issue in a third tier here for example. A bottleneck will always happen where you drop down to multiple regional leagues. I don't think it's a concern.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

You're deliverately conflating 2 completely unrelated points here.

The GAA, rugby etc point is about the SPECTATOR DEMAND for football in Ireland. The pyramid issue is about the structures. They are clearly very different things. You could have a very deep pyramid with tiny crowds, or a very shallow 'pyramid'/structure with huge crowds. Because the 2 things are clearly separate issues.

Where did I say that the status quo is best ? Or that nothing should be done ? I just presented what is an undeniable problem re how football is run in Ireland - but also gave a very clearly solution. You need to read what people actually write :cool:

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So the point you originally made about GAA/rugby is irrelevant then. Glad that's cleared up, cos you tend to put out a lot of irrelevant arguments.

The only solution you gave as far as I can see was that "It's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement" Government interference in FA matters always goes down well with FIFA/UEFA of course.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

You're deliverately conflating 2 completely unrelated points here.

The GAA, rugby etc point is about the SPECTATOR DEMAND for football in Ireland. The pyramid issue is about the structures. They are clearly very different things. You could have a very deep pyramid with tiny crowds, or a very shallow 'pyramid'/structure with huge crowds. Because the 2 things are clearly separate issues.

Where did I say that the status quo is best ? Or that nothing should be done ? I just presented what is an undeniable problem re how football is run in Ireland - but also gave a very clearly solution. You need to read what people actually write :cool:

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Ironically, at the time Charlton fever was at its height, club rugby was in a similar or indeed worse position to where the League of Ireland is currently in terms of attendances, but was later rescued when the IRFU created the provincial franchises for the European Cup, and subsequently the Celtic League. Unfortunately, the FAI was solely focused on the national team at the time, so while junior soccer prospered across the country, the LoI never capitalised on the opportunity to either grow domestic support or attract new clubs.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

On what basis?

Every single team to have joined it - bar Bray - has gone bankrupt. That's not a success. We've lost Newcastlewest, St James' Gate, St Francis, Home Farm, Kildare, Kilkenny, Mervue, Salthill, Cabinteely, Wexford and Waterford (both of whom came back) God knows how many Limerick teams - and that's just from those who were in the First Division at the time. It doesn't count Cobh, Monaghan, Dublin City or Sporting Fingal, who went bust in the Premier but were never really Premier Division sides.

I'd challenge you to find a second tier anywhere in Europe with that rate of attrition. Graveyard? I think so.

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This is a very strange point, as you'e essentially blaming the first division for the problems that have dogged Irish football as a whole for over a century now.

Far more clubs have joined, left, gone bankrupt etc from the LOI when it was just a single tier. So on that basis, surely the League of Ireland as a whole is a graveyward ? It would be like like slating the leisure sector after 2008 for the fact a lot of it shut down, whilst ignoring the broader context with the economy and financial crash that was behind it all.

It's also deeply ironic that you so heavily champion a pyramid structure, yet when it suits your argument you're happy to slate a range of clubs who went bust when they were in the PD as "not really Premier Division clubs", despite the fact they were all promoted to that level on the field of play. That's not very pyramid of you :o

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Originally Posted by culloty82

Ironically, at the time Charlton fever was at its height, club rugby was in a similar or indeed worse position to where the League of Ireland is currently in terms of attendances, but was later rescued when the IRFU created the provincial franchises for the European Cup, and subsequently the Celtic League. Unfortunately, the FAI was solely focused on the national team at the time, so while junior soccer prospered across the country, the LoI never capitalised on the opportunity to either grow domestic support or attract new clubs.

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I'd agree that the Charlton era was a huge wasted opportunity for Irsih football. But i don;t think your rugby analogy works. Unless it's a call for made-up Irish football regions to join a wider international league? Club rugby in Ireland still gets fairly crap crowds. The support largely gravitates towards a quasi-international provincial level that is significantly higher up the foodchain and disconnected from the club game beneath it.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

So the point you originally made about GAA/rugby is irrelevant then. Glad that's cleared up, cos you tend to put out a lot of irrelevant arguments.

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Stop embarassing yourself now kid. Please read and accept what people write, even if it doesn't suit your argument.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The only solution you gave as far as I can see was that "It's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement" Government interference in FA matters always goes down well with FIFA/UEFA of course.

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1) The FAI structure is such that it is not run by or for senior football. Please therefore explain to me how an organisation structured with such a predominance of other interest groups will vote to sacrifice the self-interest of those groups to benefit the minority senior game ? Especially when the only part of the lower levels of football to switch to a summer season took advantge of recent FAI turmoil to vote to switch back to the winter game at the first opportunity. Therefore gong in the completely OPPOSITE direction to what you're suggesting they will somehow magically all move is asked nicely. Please address that very obvious challenge.

2) Your point re UEFA/FIFA is disingenuous to a fairly absurd level. Political intereference is NOT the same as aligning a government's investment in football with the objectives of the body running football there. To conflate this with 'political intereference in football' is just plain dumb.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'd challenge you to find a second tier anywhere in Europe with that rate of attrition. Graveyard? I think so.

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5 teams in the English Championship have entered Administration since 2010, (Crystal Palace, 2010, Portsmouth, 2012, Bolton Wanderers, 2018, Wigan Athletic, 2019, Derby County, 2022). All had their previous companies wound up.

Out of your list of teams, only Kildare, Kilkenny and Monaghan were from areas not already represented in LOI (but still are in LOI underage in a different form). Each of these 3 teams went bust after 2008- you know when something major happened to the country. All the other clubs also still exist apart from Dublin City and Sporting Fingal, just not in the LOI (in fact St. Francis wanted to rejoin the league only 2 or 3 years ago).

Anyways, I have no idea what you are arguing about.

I have no idea what is your actual point other than pyramid is good (despite nobody wanting it), and I dont get that if a pyramid was in place, what difference it would make to teams going bust or pulling out.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Stop embarassing yourself now kid.

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It's fairly hard to take you anyway seriously when you regularly resort to patronising ad hominems rather than actual debate, don't you think?

Nevertheless, in a (possibly vain) attempt to keep at debate rather than insults, I'll just note -

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

This is a very strange point, as you'e essentially blaming the first division for the problems that have dogged Irish football as a whole for over a century now.

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Nope - I'm blaming the lack of a pyramid and (not exclusively, but certainly a big part). I've said over and again that adding a second - or third - tier to a failed system is still a failed system. If your options are LoI or bust, with no middleground, you've got a problem.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

1) The FAI structure is such that it is not run by or for senior football. Please therefore explain to me how an organisation structured with such a predominance of other interest groups will vote to sacrifice the self-interest of those groups to benefit the minority senior game

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I don't have to explain this. It's not relevant to the point that a pyramid structure would be the most beneficial option for the game here. I've acknowledged over and again that there are issues with rolling it out. (Yet ironically you accuse me of not reading what I want to in people's posts...)

And good luck with your verbiage trying to get you around rules on Government interference in football. And do you honestly think that's the role of Government, to meddle in relative minutiae like that? Do you think they should be withholding funds from the GAA because they're not happy with the black card rule?

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

5 teams in the English Championship have entered Administration since 2010, (Crystal Palace, 2010, Portsmouth, 2012, Bolton Wanderers, 2018, Wigan Athletic, 2019, Derby County, 2022). All had their previous companies wound up.

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So that doesn't match the LoI's rate of attrition. (Of the 2010 First Division, five clubs are gone, and it's a much smaller division with no churn at the bottom)

But the English clubs just dropped a division, continued on, and could get back to where they had been. Here, you either go bust and restart at the same level, or drop out of the LoI entirely and never come back.

That's a key difference, don't you think?

All I'm arguing is that a pyramid system is proven across Europe to be better than our model of trying to form a new club somewhere there's a gap and hoping they somehow do well.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

So that doesn't match the LoI's rate of attrition. (Of the 2010 First Division, five clubs are gone, and it's a much smaller division with no churn at the bottom)

But the English clubs just dropped a division, continued on, and could get back to where they had been. Here, you either go bust and restart at the same level, or drop out of the LoI entirely and never come back.

That's a key difference, don't you think?

All I'm arguing is that a pyramid system is proven across Europe to be better than our model of trying to form a new club somewhere there's a gap and hoping they somehow do well.

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Well they are not gone. Mervue, Salthill, Monaghan still exist (funny that it suit your arguments about the English clubs but not First Division clubs)- while Wexford Youths and Limerick have phoenix clubs in the First.

Again, I have no idea what your argument is- LOI is obviously not a closed shop, I cant understad why a pyramid system would radically change anything in itself, other than just being neat.

Also really, since really the 90s, apart from the post-crash years- LOI has been growing quite steadily, ableit hiccups, and thats with your graveyard first division.

Ok - they're gone from the LoI and can't come back. Which is the key point. There's no structure to get back in.

The LoI is effectively a closed shop, as Tralee found out when their application was denied for no reason (which really screwed them over - a huge problem with the proposed third tier) and Salthill/Mervue found out when being quietly forced out so Galway could come back.

Since the 90s, the LoI has shrunk from 22 clubs to 19 last season. That's not steady growth. Yes, you can argue that crowds are up and that's good. But strength in depth is also a sign of health and we're not growing there. We're going backwards.

The youth leagues have not been a closed shop and a welcome addition.
The FAI and the league clubs and have two years to decide the next step for the league. Kildare and Carlow-Kilkenny will either be invited to join the First Division or to join a third tier. If a third tier is the preference going forward, that's two years to get at least six League of Ireland clubs to commit to entering a reserve team.
If Kildare and/or Carlow-Kilkenny enter an expanded First Division, it will be more difficult to attempt forming a third tier.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's fairly hard to take you anyway seriously when you regularly resort to patronising ad hominems rather than actual debate, don't you think?

Nevertheless, in a (possibly vain) attempt to keep at debate rather than insults, I'll just note -


Nope - I'm blaming the lack of a pyramid and (not exclusively, but certainly a big part). I've said over and again that adding a second - or third - tier to a failed system is still a failed system. If your options are LoI or bust, with no middleground, you've got a problem.


I don't have to explain this. It's not relevant to the point that a pyramid structure would be the most beneficial option for the game here. I've acknowledged over and again that there are issues with rolling it out. (Yet ironically you accuse me of not reading what I want to in people's posts...)

And good luck with your verbiage trying to get you around rules on Government interference in football. And do you honestly think that's the role of Government, to meddle in relative minutiae like that? Do you think they should be withholding funds from the GAA because they're not happy with the black card rule?

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Let's cut through the bluff and bluster here. How do you believe a proper pyramid system can/will come into existence in Irish football, given the obvious barriers regarding how the FAI is structured ?

And you're just not getting the argument re Givernment funding. It isn't the government that does or would distribute funding to football clubs. It never has been, and most probably never will be. It's the FAI. So the FAI makes a good argument to the Government re what it;s trying to achieve and why. Givernemnbt buys into that and gives the FAi the money, which the FAI then distributes in-accordance with its own desires to see structural change. That's the FAI handing out the money, in line wiht its own objectives. So please explain how that amounts to 'political interference' ? All of this ignores that obvious side point that the goverment recently witheld funding to the FAI because of the post--Delaney issues, and UEFA didn;t lose its sh!t over it all (they in fact were part of the whole process to get the FAI sorted out)

I'd agree with some of the other posters on here. We get that you believe a pyramid system is the ideal approach to Irish football, and there would probably be broad agreement on that. But you refuse to address the obvious complications to having it introduced here. And seem to think it'll be a cure-all. When the evidence of other leagues (e.g. Wales, NI) suggests that it doesn't realy change very much at all. For example - even with a pyramid clubs in Wales still regualrly end up in financial and/or organisational problems and go bust (e.g Bangor, Rhyl). And clubs in pyramid systems don't always agree to get promoted, or don't have the faciltiies to enable it (e.g. Strabane Athletic). So it really isn't the solution to all our woes that you appear to be claiming it would be. And regardless - you have to explain how it would be implemented upon a patently unwilling FAI sttructure ?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Ok - they're gone from the LoI and can't come back. Which is the key point. There's no structure to get back in.

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How can they not get back ? Cobh Ramblers did.