Shane Long

We shouldn't be considering Macedonia or Cyprus our direct rivals. That kind of attitude has hindered Ireland in the past and Trapattoni fostered it.

We go into games against poor Austria and Sweden teams looking for a point. It's ridiculous.

I knew the moment David Forde was celebrating that point in Stockholm like we won the World Cup that we would end up falling on our arses and embarrassing ourselves again.

People take the p*ss out of the "pub team" but they have beaten 6 or 7 European powerhouses since the last time we got a result to shout about in a competitive game. Scotland too outplayed teams like France, Croatia and Italy in recent memory yet we laud one single good performance against a big team under Trapattoni (when the players ignored his gibberish) before reverting back to type.

That's one thing I hope Roy Keane in particular will improve in the set up. This attitude of being overawed by teams that are not any better than us.

Then maybe we won't for e.g. get outplayed by teams like Bulgaria and make players like Radostin Kishishev look like Cafu.

Apologies if I'm ranting. Just passionate. :p

I agree that we should always look to put Cyprus & Macedonia away, albeit recognising trickiness of the away leg.

Austria and Sweden weren't that poor. Sweden scored 7 times in 2 games against Germany and have one of the world's top 3 forwards. Austria have been improving and have a top player in Alaba. There was nothing wrong with Forde celebrating a point he personally secured in Stockholm with a great save only seconds earlier.

We should have been looking to beat both at home though and the new regime won't set the bar as low as Trap.

NI are no benchmark but Scotland's recent good results show what's achievable.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

That's one thing I hope Roy Keane in particular will improve in the set up. This attitude of being overawed by teams that are not any better than us.

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He installed such a winning attitude in Ipswich ok. His second season saw them wait 14 matches before their first win.

Lets hope Roy has found a few different methods to use for installing a winning attitude in our team.
Though there could be something in the way he spends so much time preparing and aligning the cones before training.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Apologies if I'm ranting. Just passionate. :p

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I suppose Trap's low bar setting brought us from losing 5-2 and drawing 1-1 against Cyprus to winning 1-0 and 2-1 a campaign later. I don't think finishing behind Sweden & Austria was quite as embarrassing as that Cyprus defeat.

I don't see Cyprus and Macedonia as our direct rivals, was just saying that Robbie's goals help ensure it stays that way.

Anyway, I agree with the general point, even if it did bring our off topic Robbie Keane discussion off topic :)

Roy Keane did do a great job of repairing Mick McCarthy's mess at Sunderland on the other hand and an attitude of we can beat Portugal and Netherlands is a better attitude than ah a draw against Slovakia or Bulgaria will do us grand.

And how much longer is that Cyprus game going to be used as a stick to beat Staunton with?

You could argue that under Staunton, we drew 0-0 with Germany and lost the other game thanks to a fluky setpiece as opposed to losing 1-6 in our own backyard. You could also argue that we got better results against Slovakia than Trapattoni and played better against a quality Czech Republic team than we did in pretty much any game under Trapattoni.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

And how much longer is that Cyprus game going to be used as a stick to beat Staunton with?

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Indeed... his only blemish.

It can be used as a stick, but everyone uses and rehashes the same point about a very very bad result and performance to compare Traps reign. Its bloody ridiculous, we were way below our ability in that game and a few others of Stans, but stop using it as a performance meter to prove how good Trap was or how well he did to improve us. Too easy to take extremes and takes away from the point being made.

That's very interesting Paul since nobody in this conversation has attempted to say anything like Trap did a good job.

To be honest, I think the 5-2 reverse to Cyprus epitomised the shambles of Staunton's entire reign. It's not merely a stick to beat him with. I also believe it is a very appropriate yardstick to measure how far Trap brought us during the early part of his tenure. Obviously there are a million and one sticks to beat Trap with otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

That's very interesting Paul since nobody in this conversation has attempted to say anything like Trap did a good job.

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It's anticipating the ploy.
Someone sometime was bound to commit the foul and say Trap did a good job.

interesting to see the squad Stan had at his disposal for that game in Stuttgart, I think Andy Reid went missing for some reason. And after that game Stan received a shedload of criticism

Given, Carr, Andy O'Brien, Dunne, Kilbane (Alan O'Brien 83)
Finnan, Reid, O'Shea, Duff (McGeady 77),
Doyle (Elliott 79), Keane.

Subs Not Used: Henderson, Miller, Douglas, St. Ledger.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Keane is only a goalscoring threat against the smaller nations (Sweden was the exception)

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complete and utter bullsh!t.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

complete and utter bullsh!t.

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This old argument is brought up about Keane every now and again.

Here's my post from the Keane thread on the 2nd of march last year:

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Originally Posted by osarusan

So what you're saying is, if you take out the goals in friendlies and against minnows in qualifiers - he has actually still scored more 'serious' goals than any other player has scored in total international goals?

And on this basis, you exclude him from any list of irish greats?

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since then he's scored 5, 3 in qualifiers.

http://greenscene.me/2011/06/robbie-...ational-goals/

There is a list of his International goals.

Since the World Cup in 2002, the only teams of note that he has scored (from open play) against are Italy in Bari, France in Paris and Sweden in Dublin.

He is not a goalscoring threat against top 2 seed standard International football teams.

Nowhere have I taken away from his record in meaningless matches or against International minnows. It's fantastic and no-one else can or will replicate it. It's the reason why he carved out a respectable career in English football.

Do I think he should start, at age 34 and playing for LA Galaxy, in the 2016 Qualifiers? Yes, if we are playing teams the standard of Macedonia or Armenia. Against other teams, other options should be considered but this is a moot point because if Keane is selected on merit instead of name, then he will probably retire as soon as someone decides to bench him.

34, playing for LA Galaxy, plays poorly against top seeds, didn't cut it at Inter or Liverpool, hasn't played consistently at a high level in over three years.....

He's an Irish footballing legend and I would expect him more than anyone else to nick a goal against Faroe Islands but his record and importance to the team doesn't compare with someone like Miroslav Klose who performs and scores against the best teams in the world for some of the biggest teams in the world; including current team Lazio in Serie A.

Sorry.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

This old argument is brought up about Keane every now and again.

Here's my post from the Keane thread on the 2nd of march last year:

since then he's scored 5, 3 in qualifiers.

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Logic doesn't work with people who criticise Keane's record. They're not starting from a position of logic so they're hardly likely to adopt it when challenged. There are still people who say Ronaldo isn't a great player. We just have to let them occupy that part of the world and not let it get us down.

fee agreed between West Brom and Hull: http://www1.skysports.com/football/n...-keep-spending
Personal terms yet to be agreed

More fool Steve Bruce?

And good luck Shane...a basket case of a club?

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

fee agreed between West Brom and Hull: http://www1.skysports.com/football/n...-keep-spending
Personal terms yet to be agreed

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Seems to be a sensibly run club. Bruce was given about £12m at the start of the season to spend and now after doing most of the donkey work needed to survive their first season, he has been given a real vote of confidence with another £10m to spend. When Brady returns, the club is not likely to be embroiled in a relegation scrap.

Maybe, but quite a few of their fans don't seem too keen on the current owner...

I didn't realise that Hull's owner has actually lived there for decades and made his wealth there, employed hundreds of locals etc. I presumed he was a lesser version of Vincent Tan.

Is the club really a basket case? I can see both sides to the renaming argument and I think he's entitled to seek new revenue streams, though I think they could move the club to Beijing and still make little difference to their brand value.

I'm sure Wednesday fans would gladly become the Sheffield Owls if they were to become solvent and a realistic regular top-flight participant :)

I see where AB isgoing with this, alls well at the moment but if the name change doesnt go through and they end in a scrap (relegation one next year) they could be the next wolves. HOpefully though that wont happen with so many Irish lads there.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

That's very interesting Paul since nobody in this conversation has attempted to say anything like Trap did a good job.

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That's what happens when you skip into the 57th page.:D

Its a weak point in the armor to have to keep referring back to a 5-2 defeat to cyprus to counter an argument especially in relation to Trap. Trap should be judged on his record and his alone, so the likes of did we get that elusive win away from home did we get to a world cup, did we beat a top team at home etc. Also the good poitns of getting to a Euros have to be weighed up, I think it lessens the argument when you try and strong man Traps tenure by comparing an awful defeat against an opponent we should be beating but others of similar calibre have come unstuck against.

Which doesn't answer the question about why you think there is an argument going on about Trap. Everybody else was talking about Shane Long and Robbie and the relative importance of the games Robbie has scored in.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

He missed both Germany games in this campaign and the home game against Austria. That reduced his chances of scoring against one of our direct rivals significantly. There's every chance he would have scored against Austria seeing Walters scored twice and Long hit the post but I guess that's neither here nor there.

He scored two v Estonia... If Paris is counted as scoring against our direct rivals, I don't really see why this isn't. Also scored v Russia in the campaign, albeit a penalty.

Of course, scoring against the likes of Macedonia and Cyprus ensured that they didn't become our direct rivals.

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Oh lordy. Well said lad.

Can we make it a bootable offence for ANYONE to ever criticise Robbie's record on this forum. It's maddening to think some think he's rubbish.


Anyway, back to Shlong. Delighted with the move for him.

here here Bonnie - Robbie is one of our few untouchables as far as im concerned.

Not an untouchable like Robbie, but think we also need to consider banning the use of the words "McGeady" and "end product" in any kind of proximity.

from now I presume? Else the hamster will be winging another generational ban your way...

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Originally Posted by SkStu

from now I presume? Else the hamster will be winging another generational ban your way...

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No, I've made my bed and I have to lie in it. I'm all about the end-product you see.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I see where AB isgoing with this, alls well at the moment but if the name change doesnt go through and they end in a scrap (relegation one next year) they could be the next wolves. HOpefully though that wont happen with so many Irish lads there.

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AB was referring to the recent signings and the money spent on them, or so I thought, but I can't read his mind.
Yes, Hull could go this way, they can go that way and eventually, one day, they will get relegated ...... sometime in the future.

Meanwhile all one has to do is look at the way the club has been managed since promotion, virtually building a new team, doing well in the league and playing good football. So far so good.

Confirmed Shane Long has signed for Hull City: http://www.hullcitytigers.com/news/a...g-1300249.aspx
interview coming up soon with him on youtube

Do Ireland have any athletes in the winter olympics?

Is Lord Clifton Wrottesley competing in the Skeleton Luge? He's an aristocratic playboy of Irish descent who hangs out in St. Moritz and holds the record for the famous Cresta Run.

He represented us a while back and narrowly missed bronze.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm sure Wednesday fans would gladly become the Sheffield Owls if they were to become solvent and a realistic regular top-flight participant :)

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Never, never, never ! The fans would really miss chanting the name of a day of the week.

It is interesting that like Doyle there was talk of Arsenal and other top clubs and he ends up at Hull City and Kevin, well he errrrr, ummmm. As usual we look at these players through green tinted glasses while in the real world they generally end up at clubs which match their ability. Definitely a step down. McCarthy (off the top of my head) is the only player is the last few years who has taken a step up.

I think it's quite bold to say it's definitely a step down. WBA are in a terrible run and have a manager new to England. I think it could go either way for each club.

Wrt which moves are good and which aren't, I think it's overlooked that at a certain level it's up to the player to make it a step up. If Long does very well then Hull will likely do well. I think he and Jelavic could complement each other well. An old fashioned pairing of a ball winner and an instinctive goal scorer. I think Jelavic is better than his form suggests. I felt he could be a shrewd move for Arsenal as interim backup for Giroud until they spend big during the summer.

I didn't hear any talk of Long going to Arsenal but some papers mentioned Spurs. I think opinion on Long here has been pretty unanimous and balanced. Good player, erratic finisher.

Heard the other day on OTB that in 2008 when Spurs sold Berbatov to United late in the transfer window, they contacted Reading with a bid for Kevin Doyle. But the club was literally closed for business at the time cos they weren't anticipating any moves in or out.... Things like that must haunt Doyle!!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think it's quite bold to say it's definitely a step down. WBA are in a terrible run and have a manager new to England. I think it could go either way for each club.

Wrt which moves are good and which aren't, I think it's overlooked that at a certain level it's up to the player to make it a step up. If Long does very well then Hull will likely do well. I think he and Jelavic could complement each other well. An old fashioned pairing of a ball winner and an instinctive goal scorer. I think Jelavic is better than his form suggests. I felt he could be a shrewd move for Arsenal as interim backup for Giroud until they spend big during the summer.

I didn't hear any talk of Long going to Arsenal but some papers mentioned Spurs. I think opinion on Long here has been pretty unanimous and balanced. Good player, erratic finisher.

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I agree with this. If he does manage to become a more consistent finisher soon, it might have come too late for him to make the step up to a bigger club but a fee of £7million shows that he is a good player, who can run the channels, provide an assist and score a valuable goal against good opposition. Beside Jelavic you would anticipate he will be pestering and trying to boss the centre-halves, leaving Jelavic space and time to pick off chances which may result from Long or their suppliers. At the same time, he'll be in position to chip in with goals himself.

Interestingly, those old fashion pairings you refer to normally have the ball-winner as the more physical and the finisher as the more diminutive. In this case, Jelavic has 3 inches over Long.

Another critical question is this; is Steve Bruce more capable of getting more out of Long than Clarke was at WBA? I would opine that he is.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...84369618_n.jpg

Pretty pointless stats really.

I've only seen Hull twice this season bar highlights. They went pretty much 4-5-1 in their 3-1 win against Liverpool. I suppose you could argue they were only 4-5-1 without the ball and 4-3-3 with it, with Brady and Koren (I think) the more attack minded of the midfielders. They were probably more defensively set-up though really in reality, but it worked a treat that day. Sagbo put in a massive, dare I say, Long-like shift up front on his own. The only other time I saw them was the 2-3 defeat to Man Utd on Stephen's Day. They had Sagbo and Graham up front but, presumably, that was only because of Brady being out injured?

Basically what I'm getting at is:

1) What is Hull's preferred formation with everybody fit?
2) If Hull's preferred formation is a 4-5-1 (4-3-3), will this mean Long will be one of the wide players, perhaps instead of Koren? Not necessarily a bad thing if he is.
3) Will Long easily displace Sagbo in the team? Presumably £7m says he will.

I am assuming that Jelavic is going to walk straight into the team and become their main striker by the way, a really super signing I think.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

a fee of £7million shows that he is a good player

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Or you could equally argue it that this is what can befall you if you go striker shopping in January :)

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

Or you could equally argue it that this is what can befall you if you go striker shopping in January :)

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So
Not a completely inaccurate valuation, in my opinion. Something, something Andy Carroll.