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Which sides are we miles off? Dundalk, Rovers and Derry all got knocked out this year. Dundalk did beat Levadia but we didn't get any credit for beating them last year. What about last season? We were the only Irish team to progress through a round last year. WHich Irish sides are we miles off? Or is this another bull**** "style" argument?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I'm not sure about that. Questions are being asked about all the LOI teams in Europe this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
I'm just trying to figure out if you're on the wind up or just totally deluded.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
You were very good in 2016. Greatest ever Irish European performance. Since then you've beaten Levadia Tallinn. I don't see any Irish teams outperforming us in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
People are looking for Caulfield to get the sack based on losing to teams with playing budgets 10 to 15 times higher than ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
Tonight was sh1te - but lets get real here.
As deluded as Total football as total football gets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
So you're not on a wind up?Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
I'll have a rosary said for you
Cork are the current league and cup holders and are currently top of the league . If Caulfield should be sacked then Kenny has to go too. Can't dine out on 2016 for ever. Very poor in Europe this year....Has to go ;) .........cobh ahem
Both Cork and Dundalk were very poor last week and tonight to be fair. But they are way ahead of everyone else in the league at the moment. Talk of sacking managers for not making a European breakthrough is a bit out there, isn't it ? no real reason to think that other managers could do better. (I realise that was a joke about Kenny going btw, but I have heard it hinted at elsewhere after last week.)
The annoying thing is that both teams conceded very poor goals, but that's an age old problem for Irish teams. Dundalk do seem to have regressed from their great run in 2016.
Majo clearouts are needed at both clubs, key players at both clubs that are not at the level needed for next stage in Europe. I doubt if FORAS would even have the money to pay off one manager while trying to financially attract another one, one that's from outside the League. That 4-0 thrashing for Dundalk had to be Kenny's lowest moment as manager. A sheer cliff fall in terms of the emotions of 2 years previous. Will be interesting to see how he does in next year's Euro ties.
This totaalvoetbal malarky is much embraced by some Cork fans - its a bit of whataboutery that tends to try to deflect away from the negative basic style of Cork play. That style has worked to an extent in domestic football, but certainly not in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
Maybe you are in agreement with El Pietro - "I don't see any other Irish teams outperforming us in Europe"
If so I'll include you in that rosary for the deluded
This is the stark reality and must be clear from this years european performances - neither Cork nor Dundalk are currently good enough for the next stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorribsideSteve
Recognising that and then setting about changing it is the key task.
I suspect Kenny and the Dundalk board have both the ability to see that and the resources to try to change it.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
Cork's record this year - played 3, lost 3, scored 0, conceded 6.
Derry, Rovers and Dundalk all won away from home this year - surely that's outperforming ye?
Rovers took a Swedish side to extra time when unseeded. Dinamo Minsk's three home European results this season have been Minsk 1-2 Derry, Minsk 4-1 Dunajska Streda, Minsk 4-0 Zenit St Petersburg. Dundalk obviously won home and away against Levadia Tallinn, albeit while seeded.
I'd argue all three of those results are better than losing each game, without scoring, against teams who have lost to Valur, Dudelange and Trnava in Europe this season.
I don't think it's true either than the other European teams are getting a free pass in Europe this year. Rovers and Derry did about as well as could be expected. Dundalk came in for a fair amount of criticism for the hammering by Larnaka, but Kenny has at least has credits from 2016.
And all three got knocked out so it doesn't matter how plucky they were in defeat.
They won the double FFS! They have been top two consistently over a period of years, something the club has never done previously, certainly in anything resembling a sustainable manner. If that is "working to an extent" I don't think you're in much of a position to accuse anyone of being on a wind up or being deluded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Bad year for the league given what we have all achieved in recent times (Unless Cork perform a miracle in Norway). Bad draws, yes. Bad performances, yes. Embarrassing exits, no. Every LoI team went out to technically superior opposition that would have expected to beat us. Dundalk comfortably won a tie they should have won and were comfortably beaten by superior opposition, Shams & Derry both lost with good away performances and Cork look set to lose 2 difficult ties to nil.
Talk of any manager getting sacked after going out of Europe to superior sides is nonsense. For the most part it's because of those manager that these sides are in Europe, we all know where Dundalk would be without Kenny and as much as I dislike Caulfield I'm not sure there's another LoI manager (bar SK) that would have had the same domestic success with Cork (A side not previously renowned for it's consistency).
The expectations of the league have been raised in terms of European performances, which is a good thing, but we must not forget how much luck is involved with European football, Dundalk snuck through on away goals against FH in the CL 1st round in 2016, without a slice of luck we'd have been out at the first hurdle.
The league is on a steady upturn (longer contracts, outside investment, marquee signings), which at least seems to be being done on a more realistic basis than the last time when it all went tits up, but it isn't going to mean instant success in Europe every single year but we are getting there.
While it's almost all over for this year at least this time we have a real title race on our hands, and I look forward to watching it's exciting conclusion!
Originally Posted by El-Pietro View Post
I don't see any other Irish teams outperforming us in Europe.
I read this last night and I was amazed at the comment.
Its an incredible statement to make given Cork have yet to even score in Europe let alone get a result. Pineapple S has provided various examples of better performances, and before I`m accused of wearing my DFC hat, I’d rate Derry and Rovers away results over ours, they might not have gone through, but they were better teams than Tallinn.
JC might have won the double and another FAI Cup, but his coaching style does not seem to be suited to Europe, and this has been clearly shown in the 3 games so far this year. Poor deployments and worse selections are examples, this was shown up in the first goal away to Legia, McCormack sitting far too deep, and the guy who crossed was almost walking at one stage, not a single Cork player near him. Cummins was ineffective last night, seems to work only on the wings, but that was Sheppard's area, and on selections, why on earth would he not start the exciting talent that is Sadlier? Morrissey too, but I think he was coming back from injury. Morrissey at least started to pass it properly in the middle when he came on. Incidentally I would consider both first subs for Cork as their best players, and in the case for Sadlier, its not like McEleney with Dundalk where he is not yet fully fit, so no reason he couldn’t have started. Cork did have a go for the first 20, and I will admit they were unlucky to be 1-0 down, but again back to the attacking options, a better coach would have set them up offensively to have had a better chance to score, as opposed to the rush and long ball play.
To balance my view on last night, other posters including Ezeikial have mentioned (and quite rightly) Dundalk’s dreadful display away to Larnaca, I think I said at the time it was bordering on the disgrace, so bad was the first half performance and the goals conceded. It was a once off though, and one game where we lost by more than one goal in 4-5 years in Europe, however I am not for one minute ignoring our own limitations. My own view is, I think we need the MF area completely freshened up with at least two quality new players to come in for next season in that area, if we are to have a better chance in Europe. We also need better cover for Gannon at right full, Hoare can cover domestically, but he was out of his depth away to Larnaca.
Overall a disappointing season for Irish clubs, Cork are not out yet, but I would say its looking grim.
We haven't been negative in Europe this year. We don't have players with the technical ability that Dundalk have for sure - maybe that is down to the manager but this negative nonsense is just that - nonsense. I wouldn't go as far as El-P with the performance thing - but we did as well against the teams we faced as anyone else would have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Not sure the point you make here. Valur are still in with a good shout of making rd4 - they look a decent side, since when do Irish clubs look down on a team like this. Dudelange won but that was a one off result, 10 men etc and Legia will still get through that tie. Trnava are an excellent side - have pace and quality that a LOI team can only dream of.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Dundalk and ourselves have been shown up over the past few weeks but I wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Long term progression is still evident. To win any of these ties you have to punch above your weight - and its hard to consistently do that. Dundalk have had more success than us in recent years in doing it - but with the likes of Towell, Horgan & Maguire et al now moving on there was always going to be a re-adjustment. It is what it is.
Stu got in ahead of me with the other LOI teams this season. Its been what 5/6 games in Europe or will be without having scored. You can easily argue they've gotten worse over the last 2 years in Europe. Making same silly mistakes as 10 or 15 years ago of Loi teams. And never look like scoring either.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
And go back two games and you see we scored six goals. We have struggled to score against teams who are better than us. We are finding the limit of our ability. That is perfectly normal. Certainly not reason to call for the managers head.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
We beat teams worse than us, we struggle against teams better than us. Who doesn't?
Some interesting debate here. I think Cork tried to change the way they played last night, it was some of the more open, attacking, football I've seen them play, but it backfired and they conceded sloppy goals. They have a few flaws in the team that are exposed at this level, and particularly when trying to play a more open game. For all the hard work of McCormack in front of the back four he lacks quality on the ball, Brian Kerr was giving him a hard time on commentary for his distribution and it wasn't unfair. They also lacked a cutting edge up front, with lots of hard work from Cummins but little threat in front of goal. Caufield's style of play reminds me of Michael O'Neill's Rovers side to a degree. They also usually set up very conservatively in the league and in Europe, if there was one criticism O'Neill got it was that his team was fairly boring to watch, but what he had was a goal poacher in Twigg and a little more quality in midfield. Cork may have been better sticking with a more conservative and direct style against Rosenborg and taking the criticism that likely would have come had it been a dull 0-0 or a 0-1 loss, but they may have given themselves more hope in the tie.
Both Dundalk and Cork are in a strange position of being miles ahead of the rest of the league, but also having lost some quality compared to previous iterations. There's some very young players involved in both defenses, and Dundalk's was particularly badly exposed at times. With the experience gained and a couple of astute signings, both sides could still make another big breakthrough in the next season or two. You could argue that there's a 3 year cycle involved in building most teams and Cork and Dundalk are both in a second or third rebuilding phase.
Hard to see any logic in changing either manager at the moment. But, with the successes they've had, a drop from the top 2 and another disappointing season in Europe next year would probably see them gone.
I think that's too simplistic. From a football point of view, you're right of course. From a business point of view, the question is where are the clubs going. Cork's performances are worse in that regard because while Rovers and Derry were one goal away from decent wins with part-time (I think?) squads, Cork can't even get a goal, let alone a draw, with a full-time team.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
I saw Valur in Andorra two weeks ago and they were appalling. Now, it could have been a one-off, but they were really, really abject, and Santa Coloma, who had only two wins in 31 European matches prior to that, fully deserved to beat them. That says a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
Trnava are decent, but hardly great. They're Slovakian champions (a good achievement), but they've never made a group stage before, so the comparison with Cork should hardly be that distinct as to write off their result.
Would Dudelange have won against 11 men? Probably not, but a Legia fan I know was watching the game and said that Legia were a shambles of a club at present who'd wasted their CL money on stupid transfers, and that this was showing on the pitch. So they might well have held on for a draw.
I just think there's a lot of chances there for Cork to nab a goal, a draw, a decent performance - and they've not done it. Being happy winning the league over making progress in Europe is the same mentality holding the NI clubs back.
I'm not saying Caulfield should be sacked on the spot here - but I do think the money in Europe is too serious to ignore now, and I do think Cork should be on a general lookout for someone better suited for European progress.
I hate this crap - No one here is happy with our European performances. I was absolutely crestfallen at half time last night, gutted. But I'm not sure we are under-achieving that much either. The manager will have to improve the team and maybe his tactical nous but at the end of the day no matter what you do tactically you have to defend better than we did last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think that is mad - Caulfield is clearly a top manager and individual errors will always cost us in Europe. It would be a massive risk to bring in someone else. Caulfield is building something special imo. Consistently getting into Europe brings better opportunities. I'll keep the faith for a while yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Made me think of the IL as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Cork and Dundalk have been out in front domestically for a few years now, so Europe is next step. Dundalk have done so, to an extent, Cork less so.
Some Cork fans seem riled that people are having a go at Cork, but it's simply because they've been so successful domestically that we expect more off them in Europe. Akin to Dundalk in Cyrpus, which was a pathetic performance IMO, we're disappointed that Cork haven't performed. I don't think that's a bad thing.
Yes, a lot comes down to the draw you get, but Cork's record this year is poor.
I don't think it makes sense to sack Caulfield, but it needs to be looked at come his next contract negotiation. It'd be a positive step for the likes of Cork to be demanding progress in Europe off their manager.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say alright. But you've said it better; thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
I never said anything about Caufield getting the boot. I find him very negative anytime I hear him talk and he grates me, perhaps I'm biased at this stage but he cant even articulate himself. I definitely see a pattern between articulation, well spoken, versed and a proper management ability. There are many a great man motivator but also many who cant do anything else. And his bluntness on camera(radio etc) shows in his European performances.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
I have no ties to either Cork or Dundalk, but I do find it funny when Cork fans defend their performances on a parallel. There isn't much difference between this Rosenborg team and the one last year, and Dundalk went out in extra time, away from home, and hit the crossbar in the same which would have put them through. Cork were nowhere near Rosenborg last night. So to say that Cork are anywhere near the other Irish teams in Europe is nonsense. And to say dundalk got lukcy one year, but then harp back to beating hacken in their own argument is also nonsense.
I don't think the comparisons with the NI league are fair at all. Up there they have players and managers going on holiday rather than going to games. There is an apathy about it which LOI clubs don't have.
I'm not drawing a direct comparison; obviously the North take things to extreme.
I'm just drawing a small parallel to illustrate a point - European progress is increasingly important
Wind your neck in a little - you appear to be getting unnecessarily excited around your interpretation of "working to an extent"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
We appear to both agree that the style has worked for Cork
Despite this much criticised and hard-on-the-eye conservative style employed by Cork City under Caulfield there is no argument that he has been successful since he became manager in 2013. A record of 3 runners-up and one championship in 4 season is impressive and laudable, particular when the 2 cup wins are added - but is still a way off comparison with their main rivals. Hence a reasonable description of "working to an extent" in my opinion.
Whether you agree or disagree, the point on delusion arose out of the bizarre claim that from a Cork poster: "I don't see any other Irish teams outperforming us in Europe". The two points are mutually exclusive
Fair enough - I suppose the description of tactics or approach is a question of interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
The common shared opinion (including on the Cork fans forum) is that Cork were conservative generally and didn't sufficiently "have a go" in Europe this season or previously
Agree with most of that. But to is "it is what it is" implies that it is going to just stay that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
It does not have to - I fully Dundalk to work hard to bridge the gap, starting with player recruitment, that appears to have opened up in European terms. Stephen Kenny will also need to look inward in terms of areas like rotation, squad strength and tactical approach - I am hopeful that he will.
Caulfield's interview with Tony O'D came across as "Sure look, Rosenborg were always going to beat us. We move on with our lives, it is what it is". Cork, at some point in the future, will need a coach who is a bit more ambitious. You could see after about 70 mins that Cork could be there for 3 weeks straight and still not score. That aspect was the most disappointing of all.
Rovers are full time exactly the same as Cork and Dundalk. Derry are full time but not to the same degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
So Dundalk, Cork and Rovers all train mornings, offer 52 week contracts but what is the difference with Derry ?
As I mentioned in another thread, I’m currently on holidays in county cork, was in a rural pub earlier watching the Celtic game, I thought I finally got the Cork & City thing. Guy at the bar asking if a fella next to me was a Cork City man, (I’m in on my own) my ears perked up hoping for a bit of chat about the Rosenberg game.
The other guy ‘yeah I’m from outside Douglas’
John caufield not saying the obvious.
"If we can score out here it's game on. We know it's going to be difficult but we've done a lot of work on it and we feel we can create the chance and hopefully take the chance to open the game up.
"It's not about us having to score in the first 15 or 20 minutes but certainly we have to score. If we can do that. it unsettles people."
I would argue that they really do need to score in the first 20 minutes. Realistically, they'll likely need to be scoring 3, as I think Rosenborg will score.
Good to see a football manager pointing out that you have to score if you want to win a football match.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I wait impatiently for JC's follow-on career as a top pundit on RTE.
Well before halftime would be fine, assuming rosenborg haven't scored by then. However I can't see them scoring 1 nevermind 2, and there is nothing to suggest otherwise. Be interested to know what he meant by identifying and working on things.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
A note again on coefficient ahead of tonight.
Obviously a win would be good. With a win or a draw, Ireland could pass Moldova back out and go up to 35th. On the flip side, we are looking over our shoulders to 41st. Results to keep an eye out on from tonight are -
Moldova 0.050 ahead of us - Sheriff are away to Valur
Finland 0.175 behind us - HJK have just gone 1-0 down to Olympija Ljubljana after 25 minutes
Albania 0.200 behind us - Kukesi at home to Kutaisi
Bosnia 0.450 behind us - Zrinski Mostar at home to Ludogirets Razgrad, and need to overturn a 1-0 deficit to get more points in the next round
Iceland 0.450 behind us - Valur at home to Sheriff and are 1-0 up from the away leg
Lithuania 0.950 behind us but have two teams left. Suduva at home to Spartaks of Latvia and 1-0 up from the away leg, while Zalgiris Vilnius are at home to Sevilla and 1-0 down from the away leg.
As before, national coefficient is less important these days; it arguably affects the Youth League most.
Also, a random score - Progres Niederkorn 2-1 FC Ufa with 15 to go. Going to extra time as it stands. Dudelange resuming 2-1 up against Legia shortly. Some decent results for Luxembourg sides lately
Think it all really started for them the year (was it Dudelange?) knocked out RB Salzberg. One of the few countries they do struggle against is us!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu