Rubbish. We failed to beat the second seeds in WC 2010 qualifying at home and yet still got the playoff position, comfortably. Similarly we only drew against the third seed team at home in the Euro 2012 qualifiers and indeed lost to the top seed at home, yet qualified. No result at this stage of the competition buries our chances. It is still very much in our own hands and 9 points from the next three games is a very realistic possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Given we have that long record of not getting and away win, the positive way to look at is that one is due.
The vast majority of the time we would settle for a draw in such games.
There comes a point where draws are not enough and we will have to go for it, the opposition will know that though.
We are bound to win a big away match in the coming years. Far inferior teams to us beat far better teams than us regularly away in campaigns, so I'm sure we're not too far away from that milestone. The Irish team that played Scotland that day in Hampden must have been the most talented team we've ever had on paper.
I do think part of the problem is the mentality of our players and managers. Over the last 30 years, we've generally always been in with a shout of qualifying going into the final few games. There have been times when we've settled for the draw when we had teams by the throat and there for the taking but the message from the managers must've been to protect what we have which ultimately cost us. There have been times in that period when we were let down by bad referees like Spain away in Seville or when we were let down by ourselves like England and Poland for Euro 92 or Holland in 2002.
If we have to go to Poland needing a win to qualify, then it might not be a bad thing, as it might bring out a similar performance to the French game, when we just went for it.
Just with regard to Given and his effort for the goal:
A decent keeper at any level will almost instantaneously react - changing weight allocation, adapting feet - to the direction of the ball as it is hit. Once the ball is only a couple of feet from the shooter's boot a good keeper will have spotted the flight of the ball. That's why even slight deflections are so dangerous and keepers are left helpless. Once you have put weight to one side it's almost impossible to put it back to the other.
In this instance I simply couldn't fathom why he reacted as if the shot was hit at him, hence he raised his right leg and outstretched his hand rather than actually diving to his right. To me the shot looked as if it was started out to his right and if anything curled back in from just outside the post. Covering his near post was no excuse, that should be a given (no pun intended). It was a strange reaction in my opinion.
But, one angle I saw (only once) yesterday seemed to indicate that the ball moved twice. It left the goalscorer's boot towards Given, then turned out, then turned back in again. All very slight but if that is what happened it'd explain why Given seemed to react for a straightish shot rather than a wider shot.
Having watched the match again yesterday I wouldn't have anything major to add/repeat, only...
-I don't think Given can be blamed for the goal. It was a perfectly accurate rocket. I think Peszko struck almost across the ball which brought it away from Given. It was also an awkward height which was too high for his knee and too low for his hand, given the power of it. I'm baffled by some saying Forde would have saved it, it's exactly the kind of shot he would struggle to react to. If that should have been saved, then it should be simply impossible to score from that angle. Maybe it should be though.
-The game/mistake will stand to Brady. He didn't allow his head to drop and he'll have better days. His general play was good as the game wore on.
-Wilson was outstanding. He was so aggressive in the air and won practically everything. He doesn't seem to get much distance on his headers though and a few even went backwards or just up in the air, possibly as a result of winning balls he had no right to win the first place.
-Glenn Whelan had his best game for us since Paris. I'm not a fan but he did most of the stuff one would expect from McCarthy at this stage. Poland's approach suited him as he was never likely to get overrun once they sat back and he had time to pick his passes, but he was very assured in everything he did.
-McCarthy had a pretty mediocre outing without a doubt. That said, some of the comments about his commitment are nothing short of disgraceful. He had a tackle in the first half that rivalled McClean's and it didn't even get a mention. He also finished the game very strong, as I think Stutts alluded to. Some of the criticism is beyond over the top, you'd expect it from Dunphy but I think Stuey Byrne was suggesting dropping him as well. If there's one player we simply have to persevere with it's McCarthy I feel. I would like if Roy Keane could maybe sit down with him and show him the extra responsibility he needs to take. He's not a kid anymore, he played well in some massive games such as Meyseyside derbies and an FA Cup final, not to mention countless other relegation 'cup finals' with Wigan. It's clear to see how much he's grown into the Everton jersey and I'm sure the same will happen with us.
-McClean was excellent but talk of him (or his tackle) changing the game is misguided. The tide had turned well before he came on but he was vital in ensuring it stayed turned.
-Hoolahan really was a mixed bag. The best thing about him is his 32 year old confidence. He doesn't get phased by messing up, he just goes again and again. He looked spent for a lot of the second half though, I can see why he's taken off every time he starts for Norwich. That said, his assist for Long was really composed and clever and it's just as well he was still on the pitch.
-Bar a couple of nice touches and one real bit of class when he nearly scored, McGeady clearly wasn't match fit. Even in his most frustrating of days he sees more ball than he did the other night. Hopefully he can get a couple of games for Everton in their run-in. I'd still start him against Scotland. For me it's a no brainer as he is a more clever footballer than McClean but McClean will make a much bigger impact from the bench.
-The same could be said on the Keane/Long debate but I'm more unsure on that one. I'd be inclined to trust MON's gut on it I think.
-Like most others, I wanted to see Long before we did but I think POS made a good point about it being too risky to sacrifice Whelan any earlier. He could have come on for Keane directly but the substitution, when it did come, was Fergie-esque, which was great to see. I always remember Ferguson waiting until about the 80th minute to bring on Solskjaer when it seemed clear they could have done with him earlier. Invariably it worked out for him though so there must be some logic behind it.
-Comparisons to Stan's campaign are ridiculous. We might have got a few reasonable results that time but until we need an injury time winner against Gibraltar or concede five against Georgia I think it's silly talk. We were a disorganised mess which we are clearly not right now. Sunday was encouraging, MON made a real effort to make us a more creative side, definite progress. Who cares if Poland let us have it or sat back, 99% of teams with a lead away from home will do that anyway. They do that to make it more difficult for us to score, not easier, so who's to say we wouldn't have found another goal or two if they were more offensive themselves?
-I don't think the new format should be used as a stick to beat the current management team with, although I probably would have before the campaign. I think Poland's (freak) result against Germany and the difficulty of the group in general has levelled the score on that count a bit.
He did say he(pzesko) hit it so well that it was a blur for him as it went past, I actually thought he didn't cover either angle but stayed well in the middle anticipating either, but he looked a bit slow to move, definitely though between he and o'shea they should have covered that angle, o'shea just turned sideways rather than get his body behind it, but as pointed out before perhaps he was afraid of a deflection and thought given had it, I still think a defender should block it especially in that position as its unlikely a deflection would get around the other side of the keeper.
I think Forde would've saved it because it was perfect height for him, he's an excellent shot-stopper despite claims to the contrary and (key factor) he has freakish gorilla arms. He'd have just lifted a hand to it and shifted it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Can't explain it more than that - seen him save those shots all the time.
For the record, I don't overly blame Given for the goal, just think he could have done a bit a better.
I'd agree. My first reaction from behind the goal was Given shouldn't be beaten from that tight of an angle. After watching it on TV, the angle wasn't as tight as I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I don't know what O'Shea was at though? Why didn't he throw himself in front of it?? He shouldn't be worried about a deflection. Throw yourself at it son...
Coleman post match quote
Seamus also revealed that manager Martin O'Neill's message at half-time was: "Keep going, you're guaranteed a goal."
"He said, 'We're still in it lads, just keep going'.
"He guaranteed us that we would get a goal and he was right. I'm happy for Longy to come on and get it."
Why didn't O'Neill say "Keep going, you're guaranteed 2 goals".
then the final line would have read
"He guaranteed us that we would get 2 goals and he was right"
O'Neill fluffed his lines, that's what Trap would call 'the tiny details that need absolute focus'.
In fairness to Shane Long he's a fantastic team player. He must be extremely frustrated when left out of the starting line ups for both Southampton and for us. He always says the right things in his interviews though. I remember him praising Koeman when he was interviewed after the Ipswich FA Cup match, when he was being left out of the side more often than not. The other day he spoke of the brilliant result we got in Germany and how not many teams will go and do that, despite not even being brought on as a sub in that match, which must have been a bit soul destroying for him. We're very lucky that despite our many limitations we've a seriously honest bunch that care every bit as much as we do, presumably even more. That's not a given in this day and age unfortunately.
Rubbish me hole, just to have to explain how drawing against Bulgaria, is an advance from drawing with Poland. You can't be serious! I'd bite your hand off if you offered me that scenario that faced us after we drew with Bulgaria at home. The draw against Bulgaria was infinitely better than the draw against Poland.Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
Yes we failed to beat the 2nd seeds Bulgaria in March 2009. We already had 3 wins and an away draw before we met Bulgaria, who had already dropped serious points, all we had to do was stay ahead of Bulgaria to secure the 2nd spot, the draw at home kept us ahead of them. It was a positive result and an away draw against them was also a positive result, we did not have to beat them. It was situation made for Trap.
In this campaign, we have already lost away to the 4th seeds. A draw at home against Poland keeps us behind them. And now the pressure is on us to do something we don't do, beat a decent enough team away. The odds on favourites for the first 2 spots in this group are Germany and one of Scotland or Poland. We are in a very poor position for 2nd spot and an outside chance of 3rd spot.
Yes we finished (Trap like) solid in 2012 qual group, we were better than the 3rd seeds and the point in Moscow changed the atmosphere. But do you seriously expect Poland or Scotland to implode like Slovakia did subsequently under the pressure of that dogged point earned in Moscow? In the past, many times we have ended up midway in a campaign, being in a poor situation in a group, but still within our control and rarely have we delivered and never when most likely we would have to beat a middle ranked team like Poland away. Possibly we get a 3rd place finish and throw of the dice in a play off. I would admit that there is a chance, but I don't have much faith in the management and the team are not impressing as qualification standard material, not so far.
I don't know something about his modesty is lacking, like he has been in a City(like Dublin :P) too long, i much prefer doyler or the likes - ye know the other down to earth country fellas.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Lads, we aren't due anything so this thing about poland and winning away is ridiculous, why are ye all back slapping eachother at the thought of it.
I love SVDs matter of fact assertion based on his own opinion when there is nothing to state or show from Forde's career, languishing in a relegation battle looking down towards league 1, that suggests he is some sort of great shot stopper. Just cos you saw him in the LOI doesn't count for a tad. At least when I do that(bold matter of fact) its about someone who can be backed up.
" think Forde would've saved it because it was perfect height for him, he's an excellent shot-stopper despite claims to the contrary"
He is not, he can't get down low, thats his biggest problem i have gone through countless examples and that sweden one was a woeful example. He is playing bottom div1/league 1 and previously LOI because he is NOT an excellent shot stopper and scouts/managers/etc all over agree with that.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Sammon_17.JPGQuote:
Originally Posted by Shane Long
6) McClean should have started for Republic of Ireland
Martin O’Neill got it wrong from the start. Lining up in a 4-2-3-1 was the attack-minded set-up almost every Irish supporters wanted to see but few fans will have been happy with Jon Walters occupying a position wide on the right of midfield. He was placed there in the match against Germany and from a defensive point of view, he did a tremendous job. However, he offered little going forward – direct runs and searing pace are not his thing – and a German weak spot, the inexperienced left-back Erik Durm, went unexploited. It was more of the same against Poland. It is obvious to anyone who has seen Poland play in this campaign that they are susceptible to pace on the flanks, so why play the plodder that is Walters out there? Why not start with James McClean? As he showed when he came on, he has the speed and skills to get behind the Poland defence and set up good opportunities for his team-mates. That was not the only choice O’Neill got wrong. If you are going to play Wes Hoolahan, then you need to play Shane Long in front of him. Long has the legs to run on to the type of passes Hoolahan can come up with, unlike the man who was chosen in his stead, Robbie Keane. The LA Galaxy forward was more static than wool fabric and despite his impressive goalscoring record, now looks past his use-by date. Ian McCourt
http://www.theguardian.com/football/...talking-points
Bulgaria have proved that they are nowhere near 2nd seeds, a bit like us, scotland are 2nd seeds, and poland arent too far off. That campaign was way easier. Georgia are better than Macedonia. There is no comparison between that group and this group.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
We've more than an outside chance of 3rd. If we win a home match against a team of similar or lesser ability we will occupy that position. Hardly an outside chance. I think it would be fairer to say we have an outside chance of 2nd as that does look unlikely at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
its very fcking negative in here. Jesus. The nitpicking of O'Neills comments, the general performance and Shay for the goal is just way off.
Great review DeLorean. I watched the game again last night and I had almost verbatim the same take aways from the game except I wouldn't have been so hard on McCarthy. I think his retention of the ball in the second half was essential. Fully agree, in a more relaxed state watching last night, about the growth of Brady at LB during the game and that McClean wasnt so much the catalyst for improvement but that he added a great spark that kept the fire burning.
We totally destroyed them in that second half. I have not seen an Irish team retain possession in such a controlled and continuous way as they did in the second half on Sunday - not for a long long time. Sure, a lot of it was sideways but that is okay. That is what continental teams are praised for doing. We defended in numbers effectively and with shape/discipline. I was very impressed watching again. To read the media (and some on here) talking about the second half being huff and puff towards an equalizer is just so unfair and way off the mark. I challenge anyone to watch it again (ok, just the second half) and not be impressed to the same extent I am or see the game similar to how DeLorean has reviewed it.
I have to agree with Geysir, based on the last 20 years never mind just the last couple of years we haven't won a big game when we really need to(bar holland) and we need to do this to do it. I just cant see us beating Scotland. O'Neill was wrong about the two legged affair in europe strategy, it doesn't work like that, and you don't always win your home ones, so don't think you will always draw your away ones, therefore play to at least try and score a goal.
Skstu, you can say what you like, and I agree, but the result is the result and the results have been the same for a long time now, we still only managed a draw, and that was well into injury time. There is nothing to suggest that we will beat Scotland, other than "we are due a win".
It cuts both ways. I have had to sit here countless times listening to people denigrate Long's performances and nitpick them even when he has been one of our best players (Serbia for example). He linked up excellently with Hoolahan against teams like Italy but that kind of performance never gains any traction whatsoever. Instead people just moan about him not taking his chances when he a goalscoring record of better than 1 in 2 starts for us and has never started consecutive competitive games!Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
What's hyperbolic to me is completely ignoring Shane's composed touch for the goal against Poland and instead focusing on how it was deflected. What's hyperbolic to me is having a go at Shane for getting booked against Austria in Dublin and ignoring Walters' culpability in Alaba having the space to score. What's hyperbolic to me is having a go at Shane for an innocuous foul deep in the Poland half and ignoring the fact that Walters almost gave away position cheaply in a crucial position. What's hyperbolic to me is telling me that I am not strenuously analysing Long's performance like I did Keane when Long came on when we were losing the match 0-1 with 10 minutes to go in a cauldron situation and Keane completed 90 minutes without barely touching the ball, making any kind of impact or exerting any kind of influence.
As I said, it's not a "grudge". I gave Walters 6 out of 10 and I praised his performance against Germany. I can call a spade a spade. But FFS Keane has been out of it against Austria, Portugal, Georgia, Germany, Poland. He had a fantastic performance against Faroe Islands and Gibraltar and Georgia over the last three years.
I can't remember the last time he had any kind of impact against a reasonable side, crucial goal against Sweden aside.
And I will praise Walters for this.
While the fans and players were getting carried away because of an equalising goal at home that leaves us with a considerable task in qualifying - showing our mentality, Walters was the only one remaining composed, bringing the ball back to the center circle and looking to get on with the task at hand.
I don't think he should be in the starting line up whether it's keeping McClean or Brady out or whether it's keeping Long out but he has a good attitude.
So, you agree with me. Nice one. I disagree with a few points you've made.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
1) Our equalizer was 30 seconds into 5 minutes of injury time.
2) We hit the post twice (Keano, Bradser) before that and had two excellent chances to score (Wilson, Coleman) apart from that. I would suggest that our second half performance coupled with Scotlands general sloppiness against the Gibbies would suggest we will beat Scotland.
3) The results are, indeed, the results and we are three points off top spot.