Eligibility proposal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Bizarre.

---

As is all aspects of Ireland/Northern Ireland.

BTW this clears the way for Northern ireland to legally play players from anywhere in Britain or Ireland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

It is nothing personal, but we are no more interested in picking "your" players than we are e.g. in picking players from England, Scotland or Wales - all of whom might have arguably have, as UK citizens, more connection with NI.

In the end, all we want is to pick the best 11 players who either were born in NI, have recent family from NI, or who have lived in NI. Thereafter, their politics/religion/anyotherbloodything should matter not one jot.

---

A bit like Maik taylor then, who was born in Germany to a German mother & English father, and has no grandparents from the island of Ireland ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Thank you, Cavanman, for at least trying to understand the position of the IFA in all this - "Stand Up for the Ulstermen"? ;)

However, I must take issue with the part of your post which I've emboldened. I know of no NI fan who is in the slightest bit interested in selecting players from the 26 counties who have no other connection with NI. It doesn't matter if they were better than our locally-born players.

---

Dont get me started on the Ulster v Northern Ireland issue!

I'm not saying that NI fans want southern rejects but you'd be surprised how you can adapt! We could offer some advice as part of the Andy Townsend course in adopted countires! Does anyone in NI really think they were Maik Taylor's first choice?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifk101

And you can still do so.

---

Not if some of those players are being offered the choice to represent another Association by a "mechanism" which is not open to players from any of the other 206 Associations in FIFA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

BTW this clears the way for Northern ireland to legally play players from anywhere in Britain or Ireland.

---

"Ireland", maybe but most definitely NOT "anywhere in Britain", for two reasons. First, this FIFA Proposal appears specifically to refer only to players born in Ireland. Second, there is already in place an Agreement between the four British Associations which prevents this (an Agreement recognised by FIFA, btw)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Thank you, Cavanman, for at least trying to understand the position of the IFA in all this - "Stand Up for the Ulstermen"? ;)

However, I must take issue with the part of your post which I've emboldened. I know of no NI fan who is in the slightest bit interested in selecting players from the 26 counties who have no other connection with NI. It doesn't matter if they were better than our locally-born players. It wouldn't even matter if they turned out to be better than the ROI players in their respective positions. It wouldn't even matter if they were the next Paul McGrath and for some reason genuinely preferred to play for us rather than ROI. It wouldn't even matter if more Southerners wanted to play for us than Northerners wanted to play for ROI.

It is nothing personal, but we are no more interested in picking "your" players than we are e.g. in picking players from England, Scotland or Wales - all of whom might have arguably have, as UK citizens, more connection with NI.

In the end, all we want is to pick the best 11 players who either were born in NI, have recent family from NI, or who have lived in NI. Thereafter, their politics/religion/anyotherbloodything should matter not one jot.

---

Out of interest, say a unionist family living on Donegal or Cavan (or even Cork or Dublin) since partition who still participate in the 12th July marches that still go on in that part of the 26 counties produced a son who turned out to be an exceptional player and wanted to play for NI. Would you accept him as your player or turn him away?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by co. down green

A bit like Maik taylor then, who was born in Germany to a German mother & English father, and has no grandparents from the island of Ireland ;)

---

Maik Taylor was first capped by NI in the last century(!), when the Rules were very different from those applicable today. Were another Maik Taylor to come along, we would not seek to select him, nor would we be allowed to, either by the other "home" Associations, nor by FIFA.

Maik Taylor is not the issue, here.

For those from NI who wanted the Annex criteria applied and are now bitter and dissapointed.
The IFA have a poor understanding of the Fifa Statutes of eligibility and what the Annex criteria of eligibilty was about.
Fifa have not deviated one bit from Article 15. The Annex criteria do not apply.

To start with, the IFA arguement had no foundation. I said before that Howard Wells was leading them up a garden path and that it was actually Well's responsibilty to inform the NI fans of how FIFA statutes are applied. Instead we had a very public, parish pump communal politicising, raising the emotions of NI supporters.
If there is any residue of bitterness left after this affair, I can only hold the IFA responsible for that.
The FAI have approached this whole issue appropriatly while the IFA employees were making headlines the FAI kept their heads down.
The FAI could have raised public emotions about the aspirations of young nationals born in the North, they didn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cavan_fan

Dont get me started on the Ulster v Northern Ireland issue!

I'm not saying that NI fans want southern rejects but you'd be surprised how you can adapt! We could offer some advice as part of the Andy Townsend course in adopted countires! Does anyone in NI really think they were Maik Taylor's first choice?

---

I'm assuming that reference was down to the fact that you are also an Ulsterman rather then the annoying habit some have of refering to Notern Ireland as Ulster when it only consists of 2/3rds of the province.

Fair point about Taylor though, it's a bit precious for NI fans to take some sort of moral high ground when they're using that kink in the rules on eligibility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

I'm assuming that reference was down to the fact that you are also an Ulsterman rather then the annoying habit some have of refering to Notern Ireland as Ulster when it only consists of 2/3rds of the province.

---

Yes it always irritated me about 'Ulster says No' that no-one asked me. Ulster of course has a Nationalist majority.

As with all these things, its the people who are rubbing things in on either side who are letting the side down. A mature debate with no childish comments will achieve nothing. I can see how it will polarise the football community up the north but I am sure it was like that anyway.

Excuse my ignorance but why could Martin O Neill and Gerry Armstrong and Pat Jennings play for the north and not the likes of Darron Gibson. Surely if you are truly nationalist or repbulican, playing for the Republic of Ireland in an exceptance of partition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

Out of interest, say a unionist family living on Donegal or Cavan (or even Cork or Dublin) since partition who still participate in the 12th July marches that still go on in that part of the 26 counties produced a son who turned out to be an exceptional player and wanted to play for NI. Would you accept him as your player or turn him away?

---

Unless he had a grandparent born before 1921 (increasingly unlikely), had a parent or grandparent born in NI since 1921, or had himself lived continuously in NI for at least two years, we would not pick him, since he has no connection, for eligibility purposes, with us.

His politics or personal aspirations don't come into it, either. Possibly the most committed NI fan I've ever met is an Englishman called Shaun. Many years ago, when Albania was still completely closed to the West, he realised he could fulfil a long-held ambition to visit that country by accompanying the NI football team who were drawn in the same qualifying Group as them (couldn't get a Visa any other way).

As it happens, this (poor, deluded ;)) chap rather enjoyed the experience for the football as well as the travel, and hasn't missed a single NI match since, home or away! He invariably dresses from head-to-toe in green and white, much to the amusement of the NI fans, and the bemusement of the opposing fans! He's even written a book on his experiences.

But if ever he or his son were good enough to represent NI, we couldn't accept him, since even though his Passport is from the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", he doesn't have the necessary connection to be eligible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Excuse my ignorance but why could Martin O Neill and Gerry Armstrong and Pat Jennings play for the north and not the likes of Darron Gibson. Surely if you are truly nationalist or repbulican, playing for the Republic of Ireland in an exceptance of partition.

---

There was a gentleman's agreement. No so called poaching was allowed. A gentleman's agreement prevented the FAI from approaching Pat Jennings etc.
Brian Kerr, it is alleged, responded to pleas of young lads wanting to declare for the Republic.
Not many will want to declare I'd imagine but a few good ones will be a loss to the IFA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

"Ireland", maybe but most definitely NOT "anywhere in Britain", for two reasons. First, this FIFA Proposal appears specifically to refer only to players born in Ireland. Second, there is already in place an Agreement between the four British Associations which prevents this (an Agreement recognised by FIFA, btw)

---

Why the quotes around "Ireland"? Are you saying I was incorrect to use the name of the state? And I deliberately used the term "legally" meaning if NI decided to pick a player born in England and with no connection to NI, there is nothing FIFA can do to stop it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

I'm assuming that reference was down to the fact that you are also an Ulsterman rather then the annoying habit some have of refering to Notern Ireland as Ulster when it only consists of 2/3rds of the province.

Fair point about Taylor though, it's a bit precious for NI fans to take some sort of moral high ground when they're using that kink in the rules on eligibility.

---

If it's my use of the "Ulsterman" tag you refer to, I was only having a laugh with (my fellow Ulsterman) Cavanman - hence the wee wink.

As for Taylor, our selection of him within the Rules as they stood then was no more unacceptable or unethical than e.g. the FAI selecting players under the "Granny Rule" who couldn't previously have identified Ireland on a map of Ireland!

However, following the Qatari/Brazilian affair, FIFA changed its Rules with regard to eligibility, so that the IFA considered that players otherwise eligible for NI were now being selected by another Association (FAI), in contravention of the new Rules. Therefore, they objected.

Whether they are correct in their interpretation or not, who is such a stance inconsistent?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cavan_fan

Dont get me started on the Ulster v Northern Ireland issue!

I'm not saying that NI fans want southern rejects but you'd be surprised how you can adapt! We could offer some advice as part of the Andy Townsend course in adopted countires! Does anyone in NI really think they were Maik Taylor's first choice?

---

Whats this southern your keep referring to? Cork/Kerry?? :confused:

If you mean from the Republic say so. I hate the term 'Southern Ireland' when it is used to encompass the Republic. It is bad enough hearing it from Brits and Yanks, but not from our own.

Rant over !!!! :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

Why the quotes around "Ireland"? Are you saying I was incorrect to use the name of the state? And I deliberately used the term "legally" meaning if NI decided to pick a player born in England and with no connection to NI, there is nothing FIFA can do to stop it

---

There is an agreement lodged with FIFA in 2003 by the 4 UK "home countries" that the Annex criteria be applied to footballers in deciding which team they can declare for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Whether they are correct in their interpretation or not, who is such a stance inconsistent?

---

Because the point of the rule was not to stop players with legitimate claims to dual nationality from representing their country of choice. It was not intended to effect existing arrangements.

The intention of the rule was to stop people being paid to change nationality. You obviously know the situation regarding Irish/British citizens so you can quit playing the dumb innocent here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

There is an agreement lodged with FIFA in 2003 by the 4 UK "home countries" that the Annex criteria be applied to footballers in deciding which team they can declare for.

---

My mistake. apologies so

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Superhoops

Whats this southern your keep referring to? Cork/Kerry?? :confused:

If you mean from the Republic say so. I hate the term 'Southern Ireland' when it is used to encompass the Republic. It is bad enough hearing it from Brits and Yanks, but not from our own.

Rant over !!!! :(

---

Ya I have a point of doing this too....especially to the brits. I remember my sister took great issue* with a scottish busker in germany about 10 - 15 years ago and that memory has stayed with me ever since. She simply replied "No, the west of Ireland", to the question "Are you from southern Ireland?"

Issue after the above answer ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

Why the quotes around "Ireland"? Are you saying I was incorrect to use the name of the state? And I deliberately used the term "legally" meaning if NI decided to pick a player born in England and with no connection to NI, there is nothing FIFA can do to stop it

---

Re your first point, I used " " merely because it was a quotation, exactly as with "anywhere in Britain". But I'm quite happy to excise those quotation marks, if you wish.

As for you second point, the suggested compromise from FIFA makes no reference to players born in England, or anywhere else outwith Ireland. Instead, it specifically refers only to players born in Ireland.

In fact, by my interpretation of the Rules - chiefly that damned Annex - we would be barred by FIFA from picking a player born in England with no connection to NI (or a Maik Taylor, for that matter).

Moreover, the four Home Associations have a written agreement which prevents any of them acting in such a way. This Agreement is recognised by FIFA, who would almost certainly not intervene, should any individual player challenge it.

(In fact, there was a very recent case of a young English-born lad whose family had moved him to Scotland at a young age. He plays for a Scottish club and wanted to declare for Scotland. Despite his having played for Scotland Schools, the English FA objected to his representing Scotland at any higher level, on the basis that the "Home" Agreement states that birthplace overrides all other considerations in case of dispute over eligibility between the four. The SFA accepted this.)

Is naturalisation ruled out altogether in this wonderful FIFA annex on eligibility?

BTW why so much talk of Maik Taylor what about the great Trevor Wood?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

Because the point of the rule was not to stop players with legitimate claims to dual nationality from representing their country of choice. It was not intended to effect existing arrangements.

The intention of the rule was to stop people being paid to change nationality. You obviously know the situation regarding Irish/British citizens so you can quit playing the dumb innocent here

---

I'm not playing the dumb innocent. I have consistently posted that I can see the basis for the FAI's case. However, I can also see the basis for the IFA's case. I had hoped that the latter would prevail. I still hope that the latter may somehow prevail, since the compromise [sic] suggested by FIFA has not actually rejected the IFA's submission (nor accepted the FAI's).

So whilst I accept that it may look bad for the IFA should they reject the compromise, thereby possibly colouring FIFA's view of them, I don't think this issue is settled yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by charliesboots

BTW why so much talk of Maik Taylor what about the great Trevor Wood?

---

Trevor Wood was born in the Channel Islands so could "chose to play" for any of the "Home Nations" which includes "Northern Ireland" (if my understanding is "correct").

It isn't settled yet - thread title should be amended

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifk101

Trevor Wood was born in the Channel Islands so could "chose to play" for any of the "Home Nations" which includes "Northern Ireland" (if my understanding is "correct").

---

Yep, as in the situation with any naturalised Britons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ifk101

Trevor Wood was born in the Channel Islands so could "chose to play" for any of the "Home Nations" which includes "Northern Ireland" (if my understanding is "correct").

---

Yeah I know that and as with Maik Taylor he was eligible at the time. Would the IFA pick a similar player now though as some on here seem to think they wouldn't/couldn't pick Maik Taylor Taylor if he only declared now.

It's a tangent anyway to the main issue which relates to people born on the island.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by charliesboots

It isn't settled yet - thread title should be amended

---

No it's not settled in the minds of the IFA. That unsettlement is based on a faulty reading of the FIFA rules of eligibility
Whereas FIFA have consistantly stuck with the eligibility rules of article 15.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

...congratulations on getting one over on the people you wish to be "united" with.

---

Is this your trump card? That if we didn't allow players who want to represent their country, that the unionist population would consider accepting an 'all - Ireland' team with us? LOL!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Just as some in NI seem to have "jumped the gun" in believing the leaks that the IFA's case...

---

Primarily you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

...On which point, however well-intentioned FIFA may be in making this offer, it cannot be acceptable to the IFA, either in principle - we are not interested in selecting players from the ROI...

---

You might end up with a team that has nobody singing GSTQ. Then the IFA would definitely have to pull their finger out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

...I don't know whether FIFA have been "got at" by somebody...

---

Here we go!:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

In fact, there was a very recent case of a young English-born lad whose family had moved him to Scotland at a young age. He plays for a Scottish club and wanted to declare for Scotland. Despite his having played for Scotland Schools, the English FA objected to his representing Scotland at any higher level, on the basis that the "Home" Agreement states that birthplace overrides all other considerations in case of dispute over eligibility between the four. The SFA accepted this.

---

As you continually say if somone else brings in another associaion, what have they got to do with this subect?

What the 4 British associations agree amongst themselves about birthright etc is neither here nor there! The issue here is about whether players born in NI have the right to play for their country, the country THEY see as their country and not the IFA or FAI or even FIFA. Under the terms of the GFA being born in NI gives them the right to choose Irish citizenship and all the rights that go with that. Playing for your country is something any young lad would want to do and he can, he can play for NI if he feels that's his country or the RoI if he chooses that option that's the reality of it and that is what FIFA (it seems to me anyway) seem to be saying. I can understand the IFA's, EG and NB's frustration with this but that's the way it is and FIFA are not going to get bogged down in what is a uniquely Irish/British anomaly. The easiest option is to let the player make the choice and that's a reasonable solution, some players will choose with their heart others with their head/ambition, luck of the draw yes, but the right to choose must be respected no matter how much we don't like it or agree with it. You can't force people to play for you and anyway would any supporter like to see players playing for their country only because they have to on a legal technicality?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by charliesboots

Is naturalisation ruled out altogether in this wonderful FIFA annex on eligibility?

BTW why so much talk of Maik Taylor what about the great Trevor Wood?

---

Re your first point, naturalisation is not specifically allowed on its own as a basis for eligibility, but will effectively be so in 90%+ of cases. That is because in order to acquire naturalisation (and accompanying Passport), most countries also require a period of residence in excess of the two years specified by FIFA. Therefore, that residency would also satisfy the Annex.

Trevor Wood is a different case from Maik Taylor, since Taylor had a connection with at least two countries for whom he might alternatively have played (W.Germany by birth and England by ancestry). Woods was born in the Channel Isles, which has no international football team. In such rare cases, FIFA will not prevent someone entirely from the chance to play international football, so they said he could play for one of the Home countries, on the basis of his UK Passport. And since his parents and grandparents had no connection with any of Eng/Scot/Wales/NI, he was as free to choose one as the others. He chose NI, though his fellow Channel Islanders, Le Saux and Le Tissier, chose England. (I'm sure you can guess why they made their respective choices...;))

The ourweecountry lot have jumped the gun on us, they already have links to post messages to FIFA regarding their 'displeasure' with the proposal. Fair play to them, they don't hang around!

I see no reason for us to try and voice our opinions on the proposal, I have already sent a message saying I hope it is implemented and thanked them for their recognition of a unique situation here, and it can do no harm for others to do something similar. It only takes a minute.

http://www.fifa.com/contact/form.html I sent a message entitled 'FAI/IFA Eligibility Issue' under general enquiries. Back me up!

EDIT - Christ they move fast! Already their own thread 'Contact FIFA'. I really don't like the idea of FIFA getting contacted with one-way traffic against their proposal - if they're trying to sit on the fence, that can only do us harm. However I don't want to start the thread if its just going to be deleted and told to come back in here. Mods, whats the verdict?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Simple (genuine) questions:

Are the FAI and IFA closer, or further apart, as a result of this decision?

How does that bode for good relations between the respective Associations?

---

The IFA's approaches to a number of 'northern born' Irish international players in the last month is hardly going to help relations.

But not to worry,the IFA were told to 'clear off' by the Irish lads.:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Primarily you.

---

You accuse me (above) of having "jumped the gun" in assuming the decision would go the IFA's way. Not so. This is what I posted in the relevant thread on 31st October:
"I have kept out of this thread recently (cheers all round, no doubt!), since I have said my piece and am content to wait for FIFA's final determination, due imminently.

If the decision goes against the IFA, then I, for one, shall accept it and get on with supporting NI"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

You might end up with a team that has nobody singing GSTQ. Then the IFA would definitely have to pull their finger out.

---

It is not, and never has been, compulsory for the players to sing GSTQ. I doubt if some of them even know the words. I have frequently been at NI games where a majority of the players didn't sing it. I don't ever sing it, myself, either. As for the IFA, I have long advocated that they should replace GSTQ. This has nothing really to do with politics, mind, more a simple desire to be represented by a distinctively Northern Irish tune.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lopez

Here we go!:rolleyes:
As you continually say if somone else brings in another associaion, what have they got to do with this subect?

---

In response to another poster who wondered whether a consequence of this suggestion by FIFA might not be that NI could now pick players from England, Scotland or Wales (or vice versa), I pointed out that this was not so, primarily due to a written Agreement preventing it, which is lodged with FIFA. I cited the case of the young English-born lad as a topical example to illustrate my point.

Keep trying, old boy

To those extending their sympathy to the IFA - catch a grip. I have absolutely no sympathy with the IFA or those NI fans that wished to force Irish citizens to play for a British team.

A self respecting country would only want players that _wanted_ to play for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shanekerins

EDIT - Christ they move fast! Already their own thread 'Contact FIFA'. I really don't like the idea of FIFA getting contacted with one-way traffic against their proposal - if they're trying to sit on the fence, that can only do us harm. However I don't want to start the thread if its just going to be deleted and told to come back in here. Mods, whats the verdict?

---

moon , howling , the , dogs, at.

You're probably right. Still, can hardly hurt, can it?

Quote:

---

(In fact, there was a very recent case of a young English-born lad whose family had moved him to Scotland at a young age. He plays for a Scottish club and wanted to declare for Scotland. Despite his having played for Scotland Schools, the English FA objected to his representing Scotland at any higher level, on the basis that the "Home" Agreement states that birthplace overrides all other considerations in case of dispute over eligibility between the four. The SFA accepted this.)

---

If thats the case I read on the paper, it was rugby not soccer, and he only attended private school there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I honestly don't. What has he to be disappointed for? Not Brazil has always said he only wants players that really want to play for Northern Ireland.

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance but I haven't a clue what you're talking about NB... How will it increase polarisation and divide both communities?

---

Absolutely corect Eirebhoy - only interested in players who want to play for Northern Ireland.

It polarises and divides by potentially creating a "usuns to the right, themuns to the left" environment.

You don't have to read too deeply into the message boards today to see that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As for Taylor, our selection of him within the Rules as they stood then was no more unacceptable or unethical than e.g. the FAI selecting players under the "Granny Rule" who couldn't previously have identified Ireland on a map of Ireland!

---

:eek: Thats unfair. Jason McAteer couldnt have found England on a map either. :D