The Kilcoynes - failed dreamers or villains?

Yep still laughing here too...

Ack, you boys and your sackbiting jokes. It's always the feckin same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good

I recall once that the BBC sent over the cameras to cover the the 'Rovers Revolution' under Giles for Grandstand and the game was a farce. The score was something like 6-5 against Waterford and the ref decisions were bizzare. The whole segment became a "thick paddy" report and mocked Giles and Tracy for leaving West Brom and you could understand how they might of been embrrassed in front of their former playing peers watching in England seeing them played in such a paddywhackery match. One thing about the Giles revolution nobody mentions is that Rovers weren't that good! The SRFC of the 1980's were a far superior team than the one Giles had in the 70's.

I went to Milltown many times as a kid and I found it to be a fantastic place to to watch a match on Sunday. It did have a special atmosphere about it, but I was always beat up coming out by young rovers thugs as there was only one exit out on to MIlltown road and standing at the bus stops was dangerous too. I used to walk the long way down to Renelagh to avoid the little schooligans. But I still enjoyed going there.

One thing that struck me about Milltown was how pristene it was. The pitch was always beautiful, not a speck of dirt on the stands or terraces and all around the ground everything freshly painted and perfectly maintained. It was a class facility, no doubt.

One more thing, I worked in a social club were Louis Kilcoyne was a member and I always found him to be a very nice man - but this is 100% serious, there were a few other members who were like old time rovers supporters from the 1940's who refused to talk to him. I think the man suffered unfairly as he for a long time did his best for the club and eventually got fed up and no matter what anyone says SRFC supporters are the most fickle in the history of the league. They are all "devoted" as long as Rovers are in the latter stages of cup or league. They are just like GAA heads that way and always have been as long as I have been following LOI.

I personally am sick about hearing of Milltown in 2007. It's very old history now and the LOI today is a world away and still bringing the old saga up is like an old family problems which a few bitter relatives who really do not care have to mention to stir up ****e.

---

The 6-5 game was in March 1959. Rovers top, waterford 2nd, Rovers 4-1 up in the 2nd half and Waterford came back to win 6-5. I don't think there was another one. Rovers still own the title.

You are correct re the Giles era though. Rovers had been terrible, bottom in 1976, 11th in 1977 then Giles arrived and brought back the old pros. The team played pretty football but drew a lot of games. Giles did win the cup although don't mention that in Sligo or neutral Dublin referees. :D

Rovers were a decent top 4 or 5 team in the late 70's/early 80's. McLaughlin did transform them though into the best team in the country. Dermot Keely and Noel King made a huge difference as Rovers fans claim they added a bit of steel that was lacking under Giles. To fans of other clubs they were allowed get away with murder on the pitch. They did allow the like sof Pat Byrne and Liam O'Brien etc to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Man Himself

it was the pats fan who started it. and it was you how made a comment about waterford fans.
so bite me sack.

---

Mature alright......

You were the first however to make the comment that Pats had little or no support so made the first comparison....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Large dollop of hindsight bias here.

If you accept that the Kilcoynes were out to make money, rather than the good of Shamrock Rovers (as most LoI fans would), then your point becomes immaterial.

Kilcoyne didn't HAVE to sell the ground, he choose to.

---

I accept totally that Kilcoyne betrayed Rovers and greed ruled. KRAM were 100% frustrated. What I could gather was that KRAM didn't have a legal basis to stop it, they couldn't even compel a discussion not to mention a negotiation with Kilcoyne. Kilcoyne had the club tied up.
My point is not immaterial, I have worked on preparing constitutions for many different clubs/societies, in no way should Rovers have been exposed to the greed or financial ineptitude of any chairman, no way should it have been depending on its Chairman to have good will in order for it to have a ground to function.
A good constitution is the foundation of a club, history or fai cups are feck all use in a court when it comes to determining who owns the ground or who has the right to take the decision to sell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

I accept totally that Kilcoyne betrayed Rovers and greed ruled. KRAM were 100% frustrated. What I could gather was that KRAM didn't have a legal basis to stop it, they couldn't even compel a discussion not to mention a negotiation with Kilcoyne. Kilcoyne had the club tied up.
My point is not immaterial, I have worked on preparing constitutions for many different clubs/societies, in no way should Rovers have been exposed to the greed or financial ineptitude of any chairman, no way should it have been depending on its Chairman to have good will in order for it to have a ground to function.
A good constitution is the foundation of a club, history or fai cups are feck all use in a court when it comes to determining who owns the ground or who has the right to take the decision to sell.

---

KRAM were also very busy collecting money...wonder where it went ??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

KRAM were also very busy collecting money...wonder where it went ??

---

At a guess .....someones house extension??!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

KRAM were also very busy collecting money...wonder where it went ??

---

I've seen this comment a couple of times the last couple of days is there an issue with rovers fans and KRAM? Was there much money raised?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr A

Ack, you boys and your sackbiting jokes. It's always the feckin same.

---

Bite me sack my hole

And so on...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

Giles did win the cup although don't mention that in Sligo or neutral Dublin referees. :D

---

I've heard bits and pieces about that - can you elaborate more for me gspain?

Any of the older fans on here have an idea of what it cost to go to other grounds at the time??

My dad nearly choked there when I told him it was £4 into Milltown in the early 80s and said he certainly would have been picking and choosing his games if he was a Rovers fan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Réiteoir

I've heard bits and pieces about that - can you elaborate more for me gspain?

---

1978 FAI Cup final Sligo v Shamrock Rovers

48th minute (first half) very dubious penalty awarded by John Carpenter gave Rovers a 1-0 win. Mention that cup final to a Sligo fan and it is sure to provoke a reaction.

There always seemed to be a Dublin referee when a Dublin side met a provincial side. JC was one of the better refs in his day but I doubt if he ever holidayed in Sligo again.

Don't know what all the fuss is about Milltown was like Waterford UTD's ground without the running track with a terrace with a bit of a roof on the other side, and the club sat on their hands for over 50 years when Irish land prices were the cheapest in the EEC Boo Hoo for the Shams 20 years on get over it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by btid1

Mature alright......

You were the first however to make the comment that Pats had little or no support so made the first comparison....

---

Quote:

---

ST PATS FAN WROTE

---

Quote:

---

I was a Pats Cup semi in 1986 in waterford and there was about 3,000 at the game and it was split 50/50

---

that was the respond he gave when i made a comment about waterford and rovers game at milltown always had over 10,000.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knappagh Red

Don't know what all the fuss is about Milltown was like Waterford UTD's ground without the running track with a terrace with a bit of a roof on the other side, and the club sat on their hands for over 50 years when Irish land prices were the cheapest in the EEC Boo Hoo for the Shams 20 years on get over it

---

Just one comment for the above spam:

The reason why they were cheap, was because the country was broke, and couldn't be afforded then, never mind now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

The Jesuits did in effect sell the ground ie they sold the lease to the Kilcoynes, and to say they were worried about there been uproar if " they sold the ground" is rubbish.

If they felt that way then when they were drawing up the terms of the sale of the lease to Kilcoyne they would of inserted a clause insisting that the land could only be used as a stadium for SRFC, that would of protected Rovers. However they had full knowledge of the fact that the terms of the lease sale granted the Kilcoynes the power to do what they wanted with the land (subject to PP) and they agreed to it...otherwise the Kilcoynes wouldn't of purchased the lease.... now the Jesuits of course did say afterwards that they asumed the Kilcoynes would continue to use the land as a stadium for Rovers and that is what they had expected to happen.... I don't buy that version, so IMO the Jesuits had no qualms about the participating in the demise of Rovers and their feigned shock at what the Kilcoynes did has always sickened me.

---

How many of those Jesuits claim to be football people, were made FAI President, and are still involved in the game at an international level though....? :confused:

In otherwords - what responsibility, beyond a very vague moral one, did the Jesuits have to Rovers ? Their job was to look after their religious order - Kilcoynes was to look after his football club. Only one of those 2 failed in their remit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Man Himself

also" in 1980 cup final v pats there was 22,000 at the match with 18,000 from waterford.
pats had some shyte support back then and still have.

---

Official attendnace was recorded as 18,000. A good crowd for 1980, nonetheless - the best crowd for over a decade, and not topped until City in 1988.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John83

Three words:
Milton Keynes Dons.

Anyone think Wimbledon fans were wrong?

---

A very different case though.

That involved moving a club about 80 miles away to a totally different town. Wimbledon fans would hapily have continued to support the Dons had they moved to a new stadium in London, for example - as indeed most did during the very dreary days playing out of Selhurst Park after Plough lane had been vacated.

The Wimbledon fans fleeing the MK Dons debacle was about a team's league place being franchised to a different part of the country- not about the same team moving to a different stadium in the same city.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knappagh Red

Don't know what all the fuss is about Milltown was like Waterford UTD's ground without the running track with a terrace with a bit of a roof on the other side, and the club sat on their hands for over 50 years when Irish land prices were the cheapest in the EEC Boo Hoo for the Shams 20 years on get over it

---

milltown was a fantastic football stadium, many a great game between waterford and rovers iv seen there,
i also had the pleasure of watching that great rovers team of the 80s play manchester united in there.
its just a pity we dont get many great games today like we did back then. and as for the support! "wow"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by geysir

A good constitution is the foundation of a club, history or fai cups are feck all use in a court when it comes to determining who owns the ground or who has the right to take the decision to sell.

---

Which is all very well - if you're dealing with a democratically structured body.

But Rovers was 100% owned by the Kilcoyne family. A constitution is feck all good when the legal power rests with a handful of owners.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

A very different case though....

---

I thought Macy covered all that in five words.

Why use 5 when a 100 will do?

If people are going to keep mentioning Sligwegian fans I wish they'd use the proper term.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr A

If people are going to keep mentioning Sligwegian fans I wish they'd use the proper term.

---

I'm more concerned about the Shamwegians. This thread must bring up very painful memories for them :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

JC was one of the better refs in his day but I doubt if he ever holidayed in Sligo again.

---

AFAIK he is actually banned from setting foot in sligo!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by khoop

Says a Bohs fan.....
:rolleyes:

A more fickle group of fans you will not find ANYWHERE in the world.

---

Thank you, sir.:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gspain

1978 FAI Cup final Sligo v Shamrock Rovers

48th minute (first half) very dubious penalty awarded by John Carpenter gave Rovers a 1-0 win. Mention that cup final to a Sligo fan and it is sure to provoke a reaction.

There always seemed to be a Dublin referee when a Dublin side met a provincial side. JC was one of the better refs in his day but I doubt if he ever holidayed in Sligo again.

---

Just done some looking on the net - and discovered that JC is the only referee from this country to referee a major European Club Final - the second leg of the 1981-82 UEFA Cup Final between IFK Gothenburg and SV Hamburg.

Must have been a decent official to get that big a match...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by btid1

They were moving to a different town which was 2 hrs away.

Rovers moved within Dublin about 20 mins away!!!!

---

20 minutes? In a helicopter with a tailwind. It's 80 minutes on the bus from Belfield, likely as long or longer from Milltown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr A

If people are going to keep mentioning Sligwegian fans I wish they'd use the proper term.

---

Damn straight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Réiteoir

Just done some looking on the net - and discovered that JC is the only referee from this country to referee a major European Club Final - the second leg of the 1981-82 UEFA Cup Final between IFK Gothenburg and SV Hamburg.

Must have been a decent official to get that big a match...

---

He was also good friends with John Giles and liked socialising with him around Cup finals , surprised he hasn't ended up with a job in RTE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John83

20 minutes? In a helicopter with a tailwind. It's 80 minutes on the bus from Belfield, likely as long or longer from Milltown.

---

Not in the mid 80's it wasnt!!

Ok maybe not 20 mins but a hell of a lot closer than 100 miles in the MK Dons case!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noby

I thought Macy covered all that in five words.

---

Sorry Nob - I thought this was a forum...... :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by khoop

The figures mentioned are a blatant LIE.

I was there a lot during the Kilcoyne era. The biggest crowd I experienced was around 9,000 (v. Sligo). Crowds of 4,000 - 5,000 weren't weekly, but they were regular enough. 7,000 was occasional.

Letting Kilcoyne spout lies actually plays right into the hands of GAA people who are constantly claiming that "Rovers only have a few hundred fans" as an excuse to move in on Tallaght Stadium.

---

good point, its becomming clear now. that gaa are some bunch of *******s. with all their talk of letting soccer and rugby into their stadium, the stadium which the tax payer payed for. they are totally greedy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Official attendnace was recorded as 18,000. A good crowd for 1980, nonetheless - the best crowd for over a decade, and not topped until City in 1988.

---

bulls******.
there was 22,500 paying costomers at that match and that dont include the 5000 who got in when the gates were kicked in just before kick off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Man Himself

bulls******.
there was 22,500 paying costomers at that match and that dont include the 5000 who got in when the gates were kicked in just before kick off.

---

Otherwise engaged that day as we were celebrating the title win in Athlone that afternoon.

In fairness there were a lot of dodgy attendance figures given for cup ties in the 70's and 80's. A certain club in the south east were no angels either when it came to dividing out the receipts evenly. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Réiteoir

Must have been a decent official to get that big a match...

---

On that logic Ed Foley must have been well deserving of his stint on the line for the world cup in France?? cameroon anyone :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Man Himself

bulls******.
there was 22,500 paying costomers at that match and that dont include the 5000 who got in when the gates were kicked in just before kick off.

---

You'll have to argue that with the FAI I'm afraid then. Your view is opinion - they're the ones who write the history here.

Who kicked-in the gates anyway?

In otherwords - what responsibility, beyond a very vague moral one, did the Jesuits have to Rovers ? Their job was to look after their religious order - Kilcoynes was to look after his football club. Only one of those 2 failed in their remit.[/QUOTE]


I never said the Jesuits ever had a responsibility to Rovers... what I didn't like is that they made statements after the sale moaning on about how they hadn't intended the ground to be used for houses etc. The reality as I've mentioned already was they they knew full well that the Kilcoynes wanted to re-develop the land.. the reason they knew that is because the Kilcoynes wouldn't of paid them £100k if they had stipulated that a "sports stadium" only clause had to be inserted in the sale terms. So all I'm saying is that the Jesuits weren't as innocent as they pretended to be.

Now back to the real question... is there a bank account somewhere that contains the money that KRAM collected earning interest... would love to know but suspect finding out would be as difficult as following the money trail of a Nazi Swiss bank account...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

I never said the Jesuits ever had a responsibility to Rovers... what I didn't like is that they made statements after the sale moaning on about how they hadn't intended the ground to be used for houses etc. The reality as I've mentioned already was they they knew full well that the Kilcoynes wanted to re-develop the land.. the reason they knew that is because the Kilcoynes wouldn't of paid them £100k if they had stipulated that a "sports stadium" only clause had to be inserted in the sale terms. So all I'm saying is that the Jesuits weren't as innocent as they pretended to be.

---

That's not near enough reason even to support a mild suspicion.

It's not reason enough to suspect the Jesuits of complicity.
The simple explanation is that the Jesuits thought they were dealing with Shamrock Rovers or people who represent the clubs interest just the same as they had been dealing with for decades.
On the other hand, Kilcoyne is on public record in his evidence to the Planning Tribunals that he was well versed in the ways to push projects with or without "enducements".
http://www.planningtribunal.ie/image...ONTENT_114.pdf

Wasn't the first success by Kilcoyne about having an option to buy inserted?
When it comes to Kilcoyne actually taking up the option the Jesuits had nothing more to say, their ownership days were over without condition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

Now back to the real question... is there a bank account somewhere that contains the money that KRAM collected earning interest... would love to know but suspect finding out would be as difficult as following the money trail of a Nazi Swiss bank account...

---

Very important question indeed. I wonder if the fella RTE interviewed would know....?

How much do you reckon they raised ? Has the money ever been accounted for ?