Left Wing Clubs?

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

but as a mark of the traditional left in mainstream politics Labour were it and Celtic supporters have traditionally been also labour supporters.

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Look at the Westminster election results for the last 20 years.

Scotland is overwhelmingly Labour supporting. Celtic is therefore nothing unusual in reflecting that. It is Rangers who are unusual.

The North-East of England is also a Labour fiefdom. Does that mean that Newcastle United FC, Sunderland and Middlesborough are some sort of left-wing bastions ? It doesn't.

As I said earlier in this thread, football does not exist in some weird parallel universe or a political vacuum. Clubs reflects the political leanings of the society in which they exist. I'd bet you that a substantial proportion of Celtic fans - probably the majority - donb't even bother to vote these days, as that is how little the society they live within cares about politics these days.

Regarding Milan - I believe Fossa Dei Leoni was a left-wing ultra movement despite Berlusconi's ownership - and Roma's Commando Ultra Curva Sud CUCS was similarly left-leaning. Roma's Fedayn were 'non-political' but their graffiti features hammer & sickle logos ?! I think Fossa Dei Leoni disbanded when the Juve Vikings stole a Fossa banner ~ an Ultra rule being the loss of a banner means the close of the group!

pity as they were certainly one of the best groups for coreografie in the world... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEGAIrJTt-4

as were the CUCS & Fedayn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQgV77iUBYs

As far as I know, ASR's CUCS disintegrated purely on the basis of having lost control of the curva, was more to do with power (and splintering of power) than politics but of course the two don't exist in isolation. The story with FdL is pretty much as above, but I don't think BRN are as right-leaning as many will presume - ex-members of FdL still travel to Milan away games in the company of BRN. And the displays - which haven't stopped and won't stop anytime soon - were almost always a joint effort.

Sporting Gijon are one of the most right-wing teams in Spain - in terms of city/population in general, as well as in terms of the police in the city and the fans of the club. A thoroughly unpleasant away trip for Basques, I believe.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Firstly - berating me for mentioning that your signature promotes the political wing of the INLA in the midst of a discussion about the supposed political leanings of football clubs is laughable. My point was hardly off-piste - get over it.

Secondly - I will re-direct everything you said back to yourself. You were the one who made the initial declarations of fact without evidence. You are saying something exists (e.g, Celtic's left-wing leanings), without providing the evidence. Conversely, it is extremely difficult for me to provide evidence that something doesn't exist.

So bar the odd isolated thing from over 20 years ago, please provide evidence regarding the supposed left-wing leanings of the Celtic football club and even a sizeable minority of its fans. I gave examples of clubs in Cyprus and Israel who have very strong and clear political leanings/connections. Let's see the same for Celtic please.

Anyone can make your sweeping statements etc etc etc.... :rolleyes:

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It is off-piste and it derails the debate from the primary topic, which is football clubs leanings.
Throughout my posts on this topic I have given evidence and backed up my statements while you just reply with genralistations.
Granted you do not accept the political activity of Celtic fans 20 years ago as concrete proof of their leanings but it highlights what end of the political spectrum they lean towards. But it does still remain relevant because clubs like the casuals from Rangers, Airdrie, Hearts etc and there right wing leanings and membership of such organisations as the BNP. Due to this the CSC would never join an international a Scottish firm, and still dont, with casuals from these clubs. You may say its because of Celtics great rivalry with Rangers, but on the casual front the CSC's biggest scalps are always the ASC and the CCS, which are Aberdeen and Hibs respectively. Hibs and Celtic fans always had a left wing leaning while those previously mentioned have a right wing leaning. But then the oddity in Scotland is Aberdeen. They ridicule both Celtic and Rangers for there Sectarian nature in there fans. Aberdeen see themselves as distinctively Scottish and embrace everything Scottish.
Now all that is still relevant to today and still applys. If all that does not satisfy you have a look at The Green Brigades banners and displays. One of the most prominant and distinctive is that of their Che Banner with Green Brigade on it. They also have other distinctively left wing banners such as Cuban flags, Palestinian flags etc.
I am not claiming for 1 minute that Celtic is some form of marxist utopia but it certianly identifys itself with the left of centre spectrum. I have given more than enough evidence of their fans political nature, maybe its time you provided some evidence to the contrary instead of worming out of it by claiming its too hard to prove something doesnt exist. Unless you can provide me with facts a debate is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Da Real Rover

It is off-piste and it derails the debate from the primary topic, which is football clubs leanings.

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Your, ahem, "politics" have no bearing on your contributions to a debate about politics??

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Throughout my posts on this topic I have given evidence and backed up my statements while you just reply with genralistations.

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Old, old evidence from a bygone age

Also LMFAO at you castigating people for generalisations while nailing a whole clubs mast to the left on the basis of their display and their "firm"

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Granted you do not accept the political activity of Celtic fans 20 years ago as concrete proof of their leanings.

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It's because it isn't

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but it highlights what end of the political spectrum they lean towards

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No it doesn't

It highlights what end of the spectrum a section of their support leaned towards 20 years ago. A leaning which at the time was no different then that of the vast, vast, majority of clubs in Scotland and the North of England and as a matter a fact was nowhere near as strong a leaning as some

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But it does still remain relevant because clubs like the casuals from Rangers, Airdrie, Hearts etc and there right wing leanings and membership of such organisations as the BNP.

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Who gives a $hit?? How is this relevant to Celtic??

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Due to this the CSC would never join an international a Scottish firm, and still dont, with casuals from these clubs.

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There you go basing it on their "firm" again (Sweet Jesus)

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You may say its because of Celtics great rivalry with Rangers,

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No but what I will say is it doesn't matter a toss in relation to this debate

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but on the casual front the CSC's biggest scalps are always the ASC and the CCS, which are Aberdeen and Hibs respectively.

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So what.

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Now all that is still relevant to today and still applys. If all that does not satisfy you have a look at The Green Brigades banners and displays. One of the most prominant and distinctive is that of their Che Banner with Green Brigade on it. They also have other distinctively left wing banners such as Cuban flags, Palestinian flags etc.

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Oooh, look, a display with a couple of flags

It will take a nation of millions to hold em back......

A girl on the bus today had a Che handbag FFS.

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I am not claiming for 1 minute that Celtic is some form of marxist utopia but it certianly identifys itself with the left of centre spectrum.

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Big difference between the "left wing" you were claiming and being "left of centre"

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I have given more than enough evidence of their fans political nature

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You have given big piles of irrelevant and/or outdated twaddle

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Unless you can provide me with facts a debate is pointless

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If you surveyed 100 random Celtic fans at Parkhead asking who they vote for what do you think the answer would be??

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Originally Posted by Da Real Rover

As for this post?? Trying to deflect your lack of knowledge on this issue with sarcasm. If your going to argue with me on these topics can you please be capable of conducting yourself in a mature manner.

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Same again is it?

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Originally Posted by Da Real Rover

Same again is it?

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LMAO

You haven't had a satisfactory answer for any point I've made in the whole debate so you come out sulking (AGAIN)

Good Answer :rolleyes:

You should really run for the Dail if your "Party" ever decides to recognise it.

Is Lucarelli the most left-wing player in the modern game?

http://www.channel4.com/sport/footba...arelliccu.html
http://www.99amaranto.it/en/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristiano_Lucarelli

he's the only reason I'm following Shaktar Donetsk on their crazy journey around the champions league ...

Roma's "Irish clan" are non political but the "Boys" ultras are very right wing as is much of the cruva now of days

Barca have banned all political ultras after infighting between different right and left groups I thing a fan got murdered over it. I think they still do displays but nothing major

Do fenerbache (spell) have an antifa Ultra group?

Livorno, Atalanta, Pisa Rayo Vallecano all left too I think Milan still sing the red flag song

Oh and some Sligo Rovers supporters have a few lefty flags too

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Originally Posted by ASR27

he's the only reason I'm following Shaktar Donetsk on their crazy journey around the champions league ...

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You might be following QPR on their crazy journey around the English Championship.

http://www.channel4.com/sport/footba...ia/nov15o.html

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Originally Posted by The Good Son

You might be following QPR on their crazy journey around the English Championship.

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He does seem like the logical next step after getting Bob Malcolm in on loan today. That would be the ex-Rangers Bob who in May 2004 was fined £5,000 after signing "FTP", **** The Pope, alongside an autograph for a fan. Reminds me of the time a few years ago when Neil Ruddock and Vinnie Jones were on the same QPR team. Not exactly befitting a nice corner of west London!

Hopefully Donetsk get knocked out and then we'll see another player have to make that famously tough decision, QPR or Milan. I know who I'd pick. ;)

(by the way, Francesco Coco (ex Milan, Inter, Barca) is on trial at QPR at the moment so it's not as outlandish a notion as you may think!)

That article suggests there's a strong chance Shaktar could be eliminated from the CL. As a Celtic fan I feel it's very unlikely that we'll edge past them and I'd say they're in a strong position to get through.


Bob Malcom, now there's a blast from the past. Could barely move but had a decent eye for a pass.

ASR27 and Kingdom Hoop, either of you actually follow UCD's (mis)fortunes?

As far as I know, TSV 1860 Munchen are very much regarded as the left wing team in Munich, Germany. Their fans have a history of labour politics.

As far as I know Universidad De Chile is a campus inhabited by a lot of non-church going Chileans. As such it would be a home for left wing ideological thought. Therefore it is not outside the realms of possibility that this club could have a left wing tinge to it's politics.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

ASR27 and Kingdom Hoop, either of you actually follow UCD's (mis)fortunes?

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They are the left wing element in our support :D

BUMP!!

I'd just like to point out that Notorious Communist John Reid (Yes, that John Reid) was recently elected President of Celtic Football Club by a staggering 97% of voters.

Well Done Comrades :D :D :rolleyes:

Left wing my left foot

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

BUMP!!
I'd just like to point out that Notorious Communist John Reid (Yes, that John Reid) was recently elected President of Celtic Football Club by a staggering 97% of voters.

Well Done Comrades

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Now, that's funny!

:D

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

BUMP!!

I'd just like to point out that Notorious Communist John Reid (Yes, that John Reid) was recently elected President of Celtic Football Club by a staggering 97% of voters.

Well Done Comrades :D :D :rolleyes:

Left wing my left foot

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I cant be arsed getting in to the Celtic are/are not a left wing club debate. however a few things I would mention.

1) 97% is based on shareholders that voted for, I dont have the stats to hand be I would estimate that 80-90% of that vote was held by Dermot Desmond and Directors who were motioning the appointment, its spin and it would not represent 97% of the fan base which is what this thread is about In my opinion, though some may argue differently.

2) There have been regular visible displays (apbeit not that big) of anti John Reid protests at home and away games since it was announced that he was likely to be apponinted.

3) Celtic Fanzines such as Not The View and TAL with a decent sized readership amongst the support have recently ran editorials in opposition to such an appointment.

EDIT: It was chairman he was appointed not president.

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Originally Posted by Da Real Rover

It is off-piste and it derails the debate from the primary topic, which is football clubs leanings.
Throughout my posts on this topic I have given evidence and backed up my statements while you just reply with genralistations.
Granted you do not accept the political activity of Celtic fans 20 years ago as concrete proof of their leanings but it highlights what end of the political spectrum they lean towards. But it does still remain relevant because clubs like the casuals from Rangers, Airdrie, Hearts etc and there right wing leanings and membership of such organisations as the BNP. Due to this the CSC would never join an international a Scottish firm, and still dont, with casuals from these clubs. You may say its because of Celtics great rivalry with Rangers, but on the casual front the CSC's biggest scalps are always the ASC and the CCS, which are Aberdeen and Hibs respectively. Hibs and Celtic fans always had a left wing leaning while those previously mentioned have a right wing leaning. But then the oddity in Scotland is Aberdeen. They ridicule both Celtic and Rangers for there Sectarian nature in there fans. Aberdeen see themselves as distinctively Scottish and embrace everything Scottish.
Now all that is still relevant to today and still applys. If all that does not satisfy you have a look at The Green Brigades banners and displays. One of the most prominant and distinctive is that of their Che Banner with Green Brigade on it. They also have other distinctively left wing banners such as Cuban flags, Palestinian flags etc.
I am not claiming for 1 minute that Celtic is some form of marxist utopia but it certianly identifys itself with the left of centre spectrum. I have given more than enough evidence of their fans political nature, maybe its time you provided some evidence to the contrary instead of worming out of it by claiming its too hard to prove something doesnt exist. Unless you can provide me with facts a debate is pointless.

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The CSC? Don't make me laugh. That book yer man O'Kane brought out was one of the best fictional reads since the bible. Even Celtic's scarf/beer monster/christmas tree element hate them! a shower of clowns.

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Originally Posted by Junior

2) There have been regular visible displays of anti John Reid protests at home and away games since it was announced that he was likely to be apponinted.

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Why maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing........

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(apbeit not that big)

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Oh right. Fair Enough. :rolleyes:

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EDIT: It was chairman he was appointed not president

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My mistake.

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Why maybe I'm wrong about this whole thing........



Oh right. Fair Enough.



My mistake.

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How old are you, 12? I just pointed out a couple of facts related to the discussion. As I said I wasnt saying Celtic (or its fans) were or werent a Left Wing club.

And just in case the above statement is a little tricky

:rolleyes::eek:;)

well someone could turn this thread into a "Fesis"

... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH7Aix_SSN8

Livorno's Curva singing Bella Ciao..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLsutOp63SU&NR=1

..and a documentary clip re the communist element of Livorno's support...its in Italian but interesting even if you can't understand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqbgx...eature=related

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Originally Posted by Junior

How old are you, 12?

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21.

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I just pointed out a couple of facts related to the discussion.

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I know.

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As I said I wasnt saying Celtic (or its fans) were or werent a Left Wing club.

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I know.

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And just in case the above statement is a little tricky

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I find it a bit pointless :confused:

I mean you're getting pi$$y because I disagree with an opinion you don't actually hold.............

What old are you, 11?

I was getting "pi$$y" as you put it, over the pointless sarcastic smilies in relation to my post.

I was simply pointing out that the 97% 'for' vote for Reid was not quite a case of overwhelming support by the supporters for his appointment, more a case of 2 or 3 key individuals on the Celtic board who own the vast majority of those votes and were nominating Reid, therefore it was academic.

33 for the record....sadly.

Very interesting thread, but lots of wrong information as far as Italian clubs are concerned (most of all comments about AS Roma or Milan AC supporters, I'd say). Still it's interesting to read "how they see us" and what kind of information reach the foreign countries. The attached map might be of some help to understand the colours of Italian supporters [looks bigger here http://www.tuttiallostadio.it/tutti%...io/SQUADRE.JPG]. It's a sensitive subject and I won't go into dangerous details, after all such words as socialist, fascist or even left and right have a different meaning in each country. Media, then, play a key role in giving biased information. In the last few years there's been a very strong turn to the right wing throughout the country, that's a fact (and in a country like Italy is no surprise), the only real extreme leftist ultras today being Livorno's (more and more blamed for their shocking behaviour and Lucarelli regarded as the king of hypocrisy because of his hunger for money, but I'm from Pisa :rolleyes: so don't expect understanding from me). Once the red areas were roughly in Tuscany and Emilia Romagna (both with lot of exceptions) but things have definitly changed. Most of the south is "black", I'd say, with peaks mainly in Rome and Sicily. It goes without saying that politics in football are a true disease and I'd prefer to see more city flags rather then political symbols at the grounds (Pisa supporters have almost replaced the black-blue colours with the old white/red Republic of Pisa flags). Hysterical restrictions from goverment then made the rest (I wonder if the minister who made the celtic cross forbidden is aware of the meaning of such an ancient symbol!). The truth is that Italian football has bigger problems, with violence and corruption being real emergencies. Last year Italy won the World Cup but I can hardly mention the starting XI whereas I won't miss a name among those who lift the cup in Madrid 25 years ago!

Great post Sandro! It is difficult to keep up when fan movements are so fluid. for instance as you mention Milan and Roma, the fedayn and Fossa dei Leoni (leftist elements) that are represented on your attachment are no longer in existence - so then there is definitely a more rightwing element if not in fact a majority in both curva sud romana & milano.

good stuff. if we could find similar maps for the rest of football it would make this thread worthwhile, it certainly provokes interest/argument.

Even the map is a bit out of date in my opinion, I'm surprised about so much concern and I'd love to give more information even if my knowledge of the subject is not deep.

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Originally Posted by Junior

I was getting "pi$$y" as you put it, over the pointless sarcastic smilies in relation to my post.

I was simply pointing out that the 97% 'for' vote for Reid was not quite a case of overwhelming support by the supporters for his appointment, more a case of 2 or 3 key individuals on the Celtic board who own the vast majority of those votes and were nominating Reid, therefore it was academic.

33 for the record....sadly.

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No point in arguing with him. I'd have him on ignore only he posts in so many threads I wouldn't know whats going on.

I read a report of the AGM written by a shareholder (where Reid got the 97%) in Celtic fanzine More than 90 minutes. He said when it came to the actual vote many people appeared to abstain (not sure how the voting system works) and he inferred that these people would also have been anti-Reid and there was a more anti-Reid feeling at the AGM than a 97% approval would suggest. These people (the shareholders attending an AGM) would also be far removed for the ordinary season ticket holding fan at street level.

Any fanzine or fansite i have read is anti-Reid or at most says nothing positive about the appointment.

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Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic

No point in arguing with him. I'd have him on ignore only he posts in so many threads I wouldn't know whats going on

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Most be awful for you. :(

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I read a report of the AGM written by a shareholder (where Reid got the 97%) in Celtic fanzine More than 90 minutes. He said when it came to the actual vote many people appeared to abstain

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Genuine Question

Why not vote against??

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he inferred

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M'Kay..........

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that these people would also have been anti-Reid

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Genuine Question

Why not vote against??

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Any fanzine or fansite i have read is anti-Reid or at most says nothing positive about the appointment

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Can we expect massive fan protests at games until he's removed??

Massives protests? No, I dont think so. For the time being it will probably be the continued low profile type stuff, more a reflection of the apathy in modern day society than something reflecting a Celtic support that shares it political views with Reid or are happy with his appointment.

Some stats on the vote

For:
Holders Voting 1,043
Votes 45,763,294 Avg Votes per Holder 43,877
% Votes Cast 97.85%

Against:
Holders Voting 295
Votes 369,620 Avg Votes per Holder 1,253
% Votes Cast 0.79%

I dont have the information on the people who voted 'for' but if you look at the 'average votes per holder' stats I think you can see it isnt your average fan on the street but more likely corporate institutions and the key shareholders.

The Celtic Trust for example would make up part of the 295 'Against' voters . This is an umbrella organisation for small supporter shareholders looking for fan representation on the board amongst other things and who are on record as being Anti Reid.

As mentioned in the post above a quick google of "Reid" and "Celtic" will highlight numerous fanzines with Anti Reid feelings and give details of leafleting, protests etc.. The reality is most of its all talk with little action and the action that does happen will have little or no impact.

This isnt a criticism, Im a small shareholder and I didnt vote either way so am completely guilty of the apathy mentioned above.

http://www.channel4.com/sport/footba...ia/dec19g.html

Lucarelli to join Roma...will that make them left-wing again??

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Originally Posted by ASR27

http://www.channel4.com/sport/footba...ia/dec19g.html

Lucarelli to join Roma...will that make them left-wing again??

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It will make the Rome derby a teency bit more interesting then it has become